Episode 188: The Mental Load Is a Whole Family Problem But One You Can Solve with Samantha Kelly
/In this episode of The Balance Parent Podcast, we will dive into mental load and how this is a whole family issue. To guide us through this insightful conversation, we have Samantha Kelly, a therapist turned feminist coach for mothers, helping them beat burnout and involve the whole family in managing the home.
Here are the topics we tackled in the episode:
Explore couples navigating change, responsibilities, and gender norms without “nagging”
How families navigate challenges when one partner experiences pushback
Teaching children mental load and responsibilities
Managing children's reminders for tasks and teaching them responsibility without constant reminders
Balance between caring for children and fostering their independence
Balancing children's chores, belonging, and contribution without feeling like servants
Dealing with children’s resistance to chores and responsibility with compassion and respect
I hope that this episode resonated with you and you learned from Samantha just as much as I have learned from her. You can follow her on Instagram @samkelly_world
Resources:
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen. And on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to be talking about the mental load and how this is a whole family issue, not just a couple issue and not just an issue that moms need to be thinking about. I am so excited for this conversation. We've talked about the mental load on this podcast before, but we've never talked about it from this perspective. And I'm bringing you this topic because I found this amazing creator and educator on Instagram. And you all know that I've been on a year long hiatus from Instagram. I literally only go on to check in with a couple people. Most of them are comedy accounts. And then I checked in with Samantha Kelly and she's on the show today. I'm so excited to have her here so we can learn about the this important topic and the unique perspective that she takes. So Samantha Kelly, welcome to the show. You are a licensed therapist or a formerly licensed therapist, turn therapist.
Samantha: Yeah, I. Therapist turned coach.
Laura: Therapist. Me, too. For moms and she teaches busy, overwhelmed moms, how to break the cycle of motherhood burnout and share the load of managing a whole in a family with the whole family by empowering kids to be proactive household contributors. And I just love the way that you are shifting the conversation from getting kids to do chores, to getting kids to see themselves as a valuable and important contributors to a home. Okay. So Kelly, tell me a little bit more about who you are and what you do and then we'll dive into how we can make these shifts in our own homes.
Samantha: Yeah. So just like you said, I call myself a therapist, turn feminist coach for mothers. And we're really focusing on including like you mentioned the kids because the mental load is a whole family problem. And so whole family problems need whole family solutions and we're empowering our children to learn how to take initiative from all ages, from toddlers all the way to teens. And using a proven system and structure that allows them to learn how to easily notice what needs to be done. Anticipate needs without relying on the chore chart because the chore chart is great. But what the chore chart does is in essence, it teaches your kids to rely on you and oftentimes you is the woman in the home, the mom in the home. And what that does unintentionally is reinforces this idea that it's the woman's job to carry all of the awareness of what needs to go on in the home. And then to also be the one to assign task, which is a lot of invisible labor to do. And so we're taking the script on the chore chart and we're empowering our kids to work as a whole family team.
Laura: I really love that. So you just kind of very succinctly covered this piece of it. But I think, you know, mental load and emotional labor and kind of all of the invisible labor that moms do is having a moment, right? So it's more visible now than it was two years ago. And I'm so grateful for that. But the conversations that I've been seeing happening have really centered around it being a couple issue being an issue of the, the man in the relationship. If you're in a heterosexual relationship, needing to become more aware of the mental load and being able to notice and see and do what's going on around the house. And I'm feeling really curious about how you started thinking about this as a whole family issue, because I'm a systems thinker and I didn't, I didn't, you know, I'm trained as a marriage and family therapist. I should, I feel like I should have seen this as a system, a family system issue. And I didn't, I didn't see it. I'm very, feel very curious about how, how you made that shift in viewing it as a whole family issue.
Samantha: Yeah. So I started first in the way that you just described where we're like, okay, I am caring. I mean, like I woke up after like 10 plus years of motherhood one day and we finally, like, I, I can't do this anymore. I've hit a wall. This invisible labor that I'm shouldering for my whole family is crushing me. And I don't want this quality of life. I want something better for myself. I want something better for my partner because in an inequitable partnership hurts everyone. So I started having the really hard long conversations, long, meaning like it's a process with my partner. And together we started working on the equity in our relationship. So after about a year plus of focusing on this very, very intentionally, I was making, it was like a Friday night and I was making a Saturday morning chore list for my kids. And I just had this like light bulb moment where I was like, what am I doing? Like, I just spent the last year of my life teaching my husband, which is something I shouldn't have to do to begin with, right? But that's a whole other conversation.
Laura: Cause he’s a full partner in this relationship at home. Yeah.
Samantha: But this is so human how to anticipate me and do things proactively in the home without waiting for me to give him a lift or assign him things or ask him to quote unquote help. And I'm making now a list for my kids to do the exact like, if I could teach my husband how to do this, I can teach my kids how to do this. And why wouldn't I teach my kids how to do this? Because like, we can be great examples all day long of an equitable relationship. But unless we're teaching our kids the skills and having the conversation too around what like emotional labor is what mental load means. Like gender roles and how and expectations that our society puts on women versus men. Unless we're having these intentional conversations with them and teaching them how to be proactive. Like an, a good example only goes so far. The cycle will just continue in my daughter's life, in my son's life. And I don't want that for them because I've experienced for myself how hard it is to dig yourself out of that hole and we're doing something different.
Laura: Yeah. Okay. I have tons of questions. I feel very curious about, you know, so what that year long process was like for your husband? Can we just dip in and, and for you, can we just dip into that for not, not super deep, we're gonna focus more on the kids. But I do feel very curious. My husband and I went through a very similar year, two years ago. We read the books, you know, but I feel kind of curious and it's, we don't get to see inside other people's marriages very often. So I feel kind of curious what that was like for you and your husband, what it sounded like how you managed to do it without feeling like you were nagging or harping on something, you know. Do you know what I'm, I, because those feelings bubbled up within me and even gosh, that word nagging is loaded with gender stuff anyway. Right. I know me too. Right. So can you tell me a little bit about what that was like for you? How you as a couple unlearned those things and relearn something new.
Samantha: Yeah. So a couple of things, one of the biggest things was approaching the subject from a space of this is me. My husband's name is Chaz. This is me and you, Chaz together versus our patriarchal conditioning. This is not me, this versus you and you versus me like we're arm and arm linked up in tandem and we each got like we didn't ask for this, but we each got our own messages, our own conditioning and programming growing up our whole lives. That's just what happened. That's not either of our faults, but what we do have control over now is what we do as a result of that. So this is us fighting a common enemy together. The second thing that I did was I found two creators online that I really, really loved one is that darn chat. She's a woman and she talks about the mental load. And from a woman's perspective and then also a creator named Real Zach Thinkshare and he talks about it from a man's perspective. And I, I basically said I need you to kind of like lift some of the load off of me, of having to be the one who educates him. I was like, I need you to study these two creators. Like if you were studying like a course in school and every day, like put an alarm on your phone or a reminder and every day you are going to watch their content, whatever it is, they, they share a, a real a carousel, whatever you're gonna watch their content. So slowly over time, like this understanding and knowledge starts to sink into you because you just don't know what you don't know.
Laura: Yeah.
Samantha: So he started doing that really religiously. We set up a weekly check in that again. He put the reminder on his phone. So he was the one to initiate it. So I didn't have to be like, okay, remember we're gonna do that weekly check and talk. So again, he's practicing taking more administrative to check in to see how he's doing, to see what could be approved to see what's going well. And that's, I mean, there was more to it obviously like it makes it sound like it's super easy and simple. It was hard. There were a lot of frustration. There were, there was, there was a lot of rage for me that I had to move through and like, that's okay, that's just part of the process. When we are dealing with, like uprooting 35, 40 years.
Laura: Yeah.
Samantha: A certain type of programming.
Laura: Or even more, you know, like, I mean.
Samantha: Depending how old you are.
Laura: Well, no, I mean, but even like, just the genetic transmission of this stuff, right? So, I mean, we're, it's hundreds of years since.
Samantha: Oh, oh. Absolutely. Generational.
Laura: We started agricultural, you know, society when this all started.
Samantha: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's like the air we breathe so that it's gonna take a minute and that, that's okay too. Yeah.
Laura: I love that. You are comfortable talking about your rage, you know? So I had a girlfriend who we were going through this with our husbands at the same time. And we both, we couldn't figure out, like, if you could do this without that anger, like, without that, without hitting that wall and without that, I don't know, I don't, I don't know if you can because I don't know if the fire would be in because it is hard to stick through it, you know?
Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I don't think anger is a bad thing.
Laura: No, it’s not. It’s beautiful.
Samantha: I think like there's so much.
Laura: Transformative.
Samantha: Yeah, like energy that we could put into, like, don't be angry but, like, that's what I was doing before. Like, shoving down the resentment. This is fine. I'm oayk. Oh, it's bubbling up again. No. No, no. But then of course, because you can't keep a lid on it all the way different ways.
Laura: Cause it’s a volcano. Yeah.
Samantha: Exactly. So, it's about harnessing that rage and channeling it towards change and accepting, like, yes, I am angry because this is a really crappy situation. I didn't ask for it. I don't want it, but I, here I am. I have to deal with it. Yeah, like I'm gonna feel some kind of way about that because I'm a human and that's okay.
Laura: Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, Sam for sharing that the, the, the next question I have, so in your work with family is I feel very curious about, you know, I, I happen to be blessed with a partner who was willing to kind of step into that fire with me. You know, it sounds like you were too. I feel very a lot of compassion and curious about those families for whom that their partner maybe gives a little bit of pushback as they start to uncover some of this work and, and how to navigate that push back.
Samantha: Yeah, I mean, now getting pushed back with a partner is hard. And that's something that like the relationship you have with your partner in navigating issues is totally separate and different from the work that you're doing with your children, like we for sure are not working to empower our kids as kind of like a side door approach to like sneakily get our husbands on board, you know? Those are two very separate things, teaching children and teaching an adult are different. And so if in terms of getting pushed back from an adult partner, that would be there's just so much new up to it, like, do you need to go to therapy? Are you open to, you know, other resources and means of support? We watch the fair play documentary together. There's also obviously the book, but sometimes the documentary, like a movie can be kind of like an easier self than a book. So, I think it like the very, very, very first thing that's important is having a spouse, a partner that is open because at the end of the day, like we're talking about your quality of life and if they don't care about your quality of life, then there's deeper issues at play here than just like managing domestic labor.
Laura: Oh, yes. Yes, there are. And if they like at the end of the day, you, you hopefully love and care for one another and hopefully that love and care will be enough to move past or through defensiveness that may be there, you know. Oh, okay. So let's, let's turn if it's okay with you to talk about kids and how we do this with kids. So I just wanna kind of position, the, the approach that this podcast has taken towards teaching chores to kids from the very beginning. So, just so, you know, kind of the community that you're in. So this community focuses on non punitive approaches to parenting. And we have, I, I've always taught chores as being kind of a family activity. This is the way we care for our home. That it's a kind of you get to be a part of this family and you get to be involved not a transaction where you do these chores and you get this money, not ever forcing chores either. So if something that is supposed to be a child's responsibility is hard for them on a given day, modeling graciousness and help and care towards them. You know, being able to say, I see this is difficult for you. Let me help you, we’re in this together, learning how to make it fun together, you know, because care tasks are not always fun. And so, you know, it's so very, very collaborative and supportive and you know, community oriented already. But I feel like your approach takes that to the next level in a very planful way. And I'm kind of curious about how you start teaching kids to acknowledge and participate in the mental load of a household.
Samantha: Yeah. So everything that you just mentioned is like gold mine foundation like that is going to be the best that jumping off point possible to have like those concepts and understanding in place. So what we're gonna do is we're going to take the familiarity of like the structure and ownership of responsibilities of the chore chart and we're going to transition into being able to notice what needs to be done without waiting to be asked or given a list first or like just checking the chore chart list and then being done. So the way that we do that is we're going to have what I call the big three and this is what feels most similar to the chore chart because when we can give kids a sense of like familiarity, then there's a sense of safety and kids learn best when there's a sense of safety, right? So the big three is, is whatever you want it to be, but obviously, we're gonna make it age appropriate for each kid's age. And I have a free guide on my Instagram that you can access that will go through the structure steps like that for people. But essentially a big three, for example, for like my kids is like making their bed in the morning, checking to see if the dishwasher needs to be unloaded. And if it does taking one section of the dishwasher and unloading it, and the third one is checking to see if they have clean laundry and if they do have clean laundry, folding it and putting away. You have a question?
Laura: Not a question, but I like, like, you know, if you could, all could see me like a mind blow emoji is like all over my face because even just the wording of what you just said. So my kids have, those are two, you know, have two of those jobs unloading their section of the dishwasher. They both hate the bowl so that swaps every, every time and putting their laundry away, but I don't have them check. I or my husband equally, you know, tell them, okay, your laundry is ready to be put away or oh, I ran the dishwasher. I don't have them check.
Samantha: Yeah.
Laura: Okay. So that's the big shift, isn't it? Right?
Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. And just because you, if you are the one, let's just like, say you, you're the one that um telling them that the dishwasher needs to be unloaded. The fact that you're able to tell them that means that you're the one that's tracking when the dishwasher is being run, you're overseeing, okay, I'm noticing that it's emptied and it needs to be emptied. You're going to get your kid and you're saying, hey, this dishwasher needs to be unloaded. That's like four steps right there.
Laura: Yeah.
Samatha: So we're taking that off of your plate and empowering your kids to carry that load for themselves.
Laura: Okay.
Samantha: So noticing when the dishwasher needs to be unloaded and also like in terms of the laundry, laundry is not something, at least for like my kids are not generating enough laundry where they need to do fold and put away laundry every single day. But there's like intentionality behind that because part of the work for them then is just going upstairs and checking to see if it needs to, if there's clean laundry and if there's not, okay. But if there is, then they're gonna pull it and put away. But really being intentional in the language and saying part of the work is checking and noticing if the laundry needs to be done that day or not.
Laura: Okay. So that's what my next question was going to be. So the actual language. So when my kids come home from school today and I'm gonna be able to say like, okay, so I had a conversation with Samantha Kelly and I probably won't do that. But so what does it sound like when we are making that shift? You know? So my kids have these jobs and now I want to add in the mental load component of it. What does that sound like? Yeah. Go.
Samantha: So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it can be very, very simple to start. And then if you want to delve more deeper into it, I have a full audio course with like scripts of how to have these like more essentially tricky conversations around like what the patriarchal mean, patriarchy means. What gender, societal expectations means, what invisible labor means, all of that stuff. And it's very age specific and very simple magic words. So it kind of clicks and sticks in your kids' minds because that's kind of like an important figure why behind us all. But to start like just today when your kids come home from school, we just sit them down and say, hey, we're gonna have a conversation about the way we do chores and we're gonna kind of mix it up a little bit. Instead of me being the one that's in charge of saying, hey, the dishwasher needs to be unloaded. Can you unload the dishwasher? I'm gonna have you guys, I'm gonna let you guys be in charge of that and this is how you can notice if it needs to be unloaded or not because we need to keep in mind that just because things are so second nature for us. Because we've been doing it forever, they're not gonna be second nature for our kids.
So we need to break it down into a very small steps. So they understand how, so I would take them into the kitchen and say, okay, so when I start the dishwasher, I know that it's gonna run for like, I don't know, an hour or whatever and they don't really need to track that amount of details, but like it's gonna run for about an hour. This is how you know that it's done. Like is there a light that turns on or off or can, do you not hear it anymore? But it's shut. So if you're not hearing it run anymore and you notice it's shut, you're just gonna open it and take a look and see if it's clean or not. That's how you notice. Then when you notice, then you're going to unload it. The second part of that conversation in addition to their daily task and this is the part where families start to see a lot of progress is you're going to teach your kids how to do one, what we call one notice and do every day. And this can be anything that they want to do. And again, it like there's ways that we can, that we need to teach them how to notice because that's not something that they're gonna be able to just go from a chore charts like, oh suddenly I can notice everything and I have all this awareness. Like there's a simple structure and framework that we used to teach noticing.
But in addition to their big three, they're going to every day like practice listing those noticing weights so their muscles get stronger and stronger. And like a notice and due could be resetting like the playroom, picking up a few toys, a notice and due could be putting away their shoes and jacket a notice and due could be clearing off the table after dinner, the important part is that there is a one that's taking the initiative to see what needs to happen and then doing it. And again, this is a process and so it's not gonna happen right away. And there's ways that we teach them and help them, like, be supportive in their learning, but that's the ultimate goal. And then when they feel empowered to do it and they have choice over whatever it is that they wanna notice and do that's when, I mean, I have like parents in my DMs every day, like, you know, the other day I heard the vacuum going upstairs and I had no idea what was going on. And I feel like my 12 year old son was vacuuming his room completely on his own of his own initiative. Or I noticed like my seven year old daughter coming down the stairs with like because she had emptied the garbages and she's taken them out, didn't have to ask her, she's usually super resistant, but they're just doing it because of the way that we're teaching and empowering them.
Laura: And there's space for them to do it. I do feel like sometimes, you know, we, we kids want to be helpful, they want to be part of a family, they want to contribute to their family. And yet they sometimes I think, feel backed into a corner when we're telling them what to do all of the time. Do you know what I mean? They feel like they have no agency and ability to choose. When I first came across your page. I, that's like that same day. Like I, I think I saw a reel of yours that same day I taught notice and do to my, my eight year old daughter and she, she loves it. She, I mean, my kids have sensory issues. They strip their socks off the second, they're in the door. Often her notice and due for the day is to pick up socks and put them in the like, wash tub, you know? Yeah, I mean, so, and it, it doesnt have to be big. It can be a small, I, I really, I really love the notice and do so much. And I love that you have a course that can help families with this. So I know I have the link for your course, wait list, right? Because it's not open right now. You only open at certain times of the year.
Samantha: Opens on May 1st.
Laura: May 1st. Okay.
Samantha: So just in a couple weeks on May 1st.
Laura: Okay. And when will it close?
Samantha: So it's technically open usually for about 10 days. I open it to the waitlist first. So if you're on the waitlist, that's when you're gonna get first access and the best lowest pricing after the waitlist enrollment closes, then it's open to the public for about a week afterwards. And you get everything right away. It's yours to keep forever. And it will teach you everything you need to know.
Laura: Great, beautiful and you have your free guide. So I have that on that will be in the show notes as well. Okay. So the next question I have for you then is this again back to this word of nagging? Talk to me about reminders and how reminders work because there are things that my kids have been doing it since they were two and they still need a daily like it feels like they still need a daily reminder. Like, so this, this is not news to you that you have to put your shoes and then this is not news to you that you need to unload your lunch box. And yet every day she was on in the bed, the lunch box is hanging by the door instead of unloaded in the kitchen. Do you know what I mean? So what do we do about reminders?
Samantha: Yep, I do know what you mean. Absolutely. I think when like if I was listening to this as a mom, I would probably be thinking, oh my gosh, that is so fun and cute for her that her kids will do those things. But we're over here having an actual experience and there's no way my kids would like to take initiative and be proactive in the hall, right? But I just wanna like really emphasize that we've been doing this since last June. Really, really in a focused way. So we've had almost a year of practice now. And even still, there are reminders. I have a very, very likely neurodivergent kid. I have an extremely strong willed child. So we're having a very like human experience over here.
Laura: That’s kinda so good to know.
Samantha: I think about, we are not, I do not have perfect robot children. I have amazing children but their.
Laura: We’re humans. Yes.
Samantha: I think what's interesting about the reminder thing is when we're talking about household tasks and needing to give reminders for household tasks, there's a different level of emotional charged in it for us as women and mothers around reminders for whole household tasks than there probably is for other things. And I think the first step is being aware of where that emotionality comes from underneath for us and why there's a reason why it's so it it can, it can not always but it can be so aggravating.
Laura: So personal, it feels personal to so many.
Samantha: Personal. Yes. When we see like stuff laid out on the floor, when we see that our kids just walked away from breakfast and everything is sitting there waiting for us to come and clean it up while waiting for us to remind them again, to put away the cereal, right? That's different than I don't know what's something else that you would remind your kid about like saying thank you. You know, like there's a different level of.
Laura: Brushing their teeth like.
Samantha: Yeah, whatever it is. And the reason for that is because like you said, it can feel so personal and it can make trigger that those feelings in us of like nobody sees me, everyone thinks I'm the maid. This isn't fair. A lot of times I found for myself that there was stuff that had to do with me and my partner and our relationship and the inequity there that would kind of bubble up and seep out and like, I unintentionally onto my kids and the rage there. So I think for the first step is just recognizing that that is a really tender part of us that is getting poked.
Laura: Yeah.
Samantha: And there are, there are reasons why it feels so tender and it makes sense that it feels so tender and at the same time that is not our kids stuff and that those two are separate things. And so just coming back to like, okay, there's a reason why this feels so painful to me and especially annoying and it's okay and it makes sense and I could hold it without dumping it on to my kids that like the first step is just like neutralizing it in the same way that we would say, hey, remember, like, say please or whatever. This is just or like teaching our kids how to tie their shoes, like reminding.
Laura: A moment of attachment.
Samantha: Exactly, emotional neutrality there. This isn't about us and we're just in the same way I'm teaching my kids, I taught my kids how to tie their shoes. I taught my kids how to read or make friends at school. I'm teaching my kids these important life skills. And through that teaching, I am spinning this really hard situation that I've had to deal with and I'm spinning it into gold for my kids. So they are gonna go into their lives and they're going to be proactive adults and these skills translate into more than just the home, they'll translate into how they're like, how they are in the community, their ability to lead in the world and it will set them up for a completely different experience with roommates with, you know, future partners in marriages, whatever it may be. So again, neutralize it, long term goal. Gonna be okay.
Laura: Yes. Good. I think that that is really helpful, reframe to kind of like suck the tension out of it.
Samantha: The fire.Yeah.
Laura: Yeah. And then so, is it okayto remind? Like, so there's a part of me.
Samantha: Oh. Yeah.
Laura: So there's a part of me that like when I'm doing a reminder for a daily task, feels like I am and my kids will even say I'll do it, you just have to remind me, you know. So it does feel especially like my older one at, at 11, it does feel like there is an intention like I am carrying the role of executive function for, for them, you know? And I'm curious about how like how do we go about teaching our kids to not need a reminder? You know?
Samantha: Oh, my gosh. That's a good question. That's a good question. So that is a really great opportunity for the kids to have an increased understanding and awareness a little bit deeper of what the mental load is and it can be, it doesn't have to be a huge lecture. And again, it's coming from a place of, instead of a resentment or martyrdom on our part, it's coming from a place of supportive empowerment. So it's like, hey, you're, you're right, you're right. I could totally remind you. Let me tell you why I'm actually gonna let you be in charge of the reminding. It's because when I'm the one that's making a mental note inside my brain to remind you that when we talked about the mental lode, remember we talked about the mental load that's part of the mental load. And when I'm carrying all these reminders in my brain, it starts to feel really, really heavy. So I'm going to let you carry that reminder literally just yesterday, I had this conversation with my 9 year old, neurodivergent kid. And she was like, mom, I just need you to remind me. And I said, cool, you're gonna be in charge of reminding. And then she said she turned to the like, Alexa in our kitchen and she said, Alexa set a reminder for 30 minutes for me to do my notice and do. Okay, I have a reminder set and then she said, thanks for carrying that mental load, Alexa. So, but like that, that happened.
Laura: I love that so much.
Samantha: Of the conversations that we've had for over a year now where she immediately understood. Oh, yeah, it's not my mo it's not my mom's job to handle this situation. Like yes, she's being supportive and I'm also a capable kid, so I can help support myself. And this is one way I can help support myself.
Laura: Okay. I, I love, I, I love this so much. So now I'm starting to just, I wanna kind of, I'm imagining being a listener and hearing some of these things and there's, there's kind of two pushbacks that I think come up that I've thought of, you probably get all the pushbacks on your, on your on your Instagram page. But one is so and this one actually comes from my husband. There are lots of times where he very generously and graciously does things for our kids, does the notices and dues, does the things that they're definitely could and are supposed to be responsible for themselves. And most of the time it's because he cares for them and loves having this opportunity to care for them. He wants to be able to take care of them. And as they get older, there's fewer and fewer opportunities for that, you know, when they were two and we had to wipe them every time they went to the bathroom, you know, and we bath them and stuff. We, we cared for them in a very different way than we care for them now. And so he, he definitely is missing his little girls and wants to care for them. And at the same time that undermines sometimes my goals of having them be more responsibility taking, he travels a lot. And so when he's gone and they are still expecting someone to do all of those things, I'm the one who has to do it. Do you know what I mean? So, I mean, those are the conversations that I'm having for him. But there, I think that there are things that we like to do for our kids, you know, too. And, and, and so anyway, I'm kind of curious about that piece of it.
Samantha: Yeah, I love that question. Two things I would say that's coming up. One, nothing is ever all or nothing. Like just because you're empowering your kid doesn't mean that we're completely like they're gonna do everything for themselves always like they're still children, you're still the parent, they're still gonna need care. So you can have both things like they can be empowered and take initiative and you can still care for them in different ways. Also, I think that it's beautiful that your husband is such an engaged parent.
Laura: Oh, he’s wonderful. Yes.
Samantha: And really, and really care, it sounds like care and taking care is like a really big value for him. So I would just go through that same door or like road for him in your conversation with him and say, hey, I love that you want to take care of our kids. You can still take care of our kids. And we're actually always in some way, even when they're grown adults, there's ways that parents care for their kids, right? It just looks different as they age, as our kids are growing up, and as I'm trying to help empower them in this way, specifically, this is how we can shift some of the caring, because teaching our kids the skill of noticing and being proactive is caring for them. Because without that, like there's so many adults in my DMs or like emails or whatever that message me, comment on my posts that say I cannot tell you how much I wish I would have been taught this when I was younger.
Laura: Yes, yeah.
Samantha: Because when I'm an adult, it's so much harder to reprogram your brain and train yourself. And now all of a sudden I'm trying to like manage my adult life on my own with like crap piling up everywhere because I wasn't taught how to easily manage my life in this way. And now it's stressful and it's hard and it's overwhelming where if I was just taught before, it wouldn't be a problem. And that's just one piece of it. Let alone the whole cycle breaking piece of it, especially for your daughters. So I think it's like, let's like, really harness your partner's desire to care and say this is a really, really powerful way to care for our kids and bonus bonus. Like it, it's caring for me also because when you're gone, then I have a team, not even just when you're gone, but always, and we have a team of proactive kids instead of a one, a one month show. And so it's like magnifying his care effort.
Laura: I really like that. I like that. Reframe a lot. Gosh, you're kind of a queen of reframes, aren't you? Nice job. I love that. I mean, I said being able to reframe things is a huge skill too. That's beautiful. Okay, so then the other thing that I, so whenever I talk about chores on the podcast or on Instagram, there's also a group of people who push back around your kids are not your servants. You know, you're the parent, you should be doing all of the things. And I'm kind of curious about how you respond to that set, kind of that attitude because I really, I don't think of my kids as my servants, but I, I think that they want to feel like full contributing members of a family they want to feel cared for. Of course, they also want to feel important. You know, we all want to feel like we belong and contribute.
Samantha: Yeah, I mean, there's whole studies that have been done that like when kids feel like they have the capability to be a contributing member of a team that increases their self esteem, it increases their self-awareness, it increases, you know, their like all these other adjacent skills that also compound on themselves and translate into their adult lives in the future. Honestly, maybe this is an answer you're looking fo, when I get people commenting and saying you're like, you're the one that chose to have kids, they're not your servants or like I've even been like some people even said, you're abusing your children because you're asking them to notice what a dishwasher needs to be like. I in my mind, I'm like, ok, this is not for you then like we are operating on two very different realities and like that's okay, like I'm not going to put forth any effort on my part to try, try to convince someone who thinks that like I'm trying to turn my kids into slaves. Like that's not like, okay, like you go figure yourself out and I'm gonna be over here doing my thing, you know.
Laura: Yeah. You know, I do wonder too for those folks because they're always on my posts. I, I, I don't do very many posts. But I do wonder too what they went through, you know, where they got that idea, you know, and, and how those things were handled for them growing up, you know, perhaps they were, you know, made to, to work in their home and take on labor that was inappropriate for them. And so then they're defensive for other kids, you know?
Samantha: Totally. And I think it's a really good, like, reminder for ourselves too because I've had people say, like, I really, really love the way specifically that you are teaching this because when I was growing up it was done with a very like intense iron fist and had the opposite effect. And then in those moments, of course, I'm like, I'm so sorry, you had to experience that you didn't deserve that, you know, and I think just like even just giving a second to allow someone to be seen in their pain and also like, transmute that pain of, of good kind of like, okay, this is why like when I feel frustrated, like I'm gonna manage my own stuff, I'm going to emotionally regulate, take deep breaths, neutralize it, like all those things and all those things that you talked about the game would begin with, like we're gonna like use cooperation and connection and support and long gain perspective. Because that is so different than demand and control and threat and you talk like that level of intensity, that's not what we're doing, we're not forcing um and strong army. And it is really, really unfortunate that so many people have been that, that the way that they were quote unquote taught.
Laura: Yeah.
Samantha: Because that's not teaching at all, you know? So.
Laura: No, it's not. So, I, I, that brings me to kind of my last question then. So for kiddos who find, you know, for parents who find themselves attempting to work through this, with their kids and there's resistance or pushback or I'm just not gonna do it. What do you, how do you work with that? Have you experienced in your own house? Push back and resistance experience like that? Like, what do you do?
Samantha: Resistance is so normal. It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. It doesn't mean it's not working, it doesn't mean your kids are broken. And I think that's really important to understand is they think especially in, the information overwhelmed that we live in, especially around parenting nowadays. Like how one amazing is it that there's so much out there and so many resources for us to better ourselves as parents. And at the same time, it could be, feel really overwhelming and it can feel like if something doesn't work or if this script backfired or whatever that like I'm, I'm not a good enough mom and so I just really, really normalizing resistance is so, so, so normal and it doesn't mean anything other than human and human living together. So living and learning together, right? So I have what's called the 3 Cs. And it's very, like I talked about my course, it's gonna be a different approach if you're dealing with younger kids and toddlers versus like preteens and teens. But at the core of it, we're using curiosity, connection, and then with younger kids, I say cooperation and with older kids, I say collaboration.
And so we're going through those three steps to figure out what's at the root of this resistance, what's actually going on underneath the surface. We're approaching them with connection and again, that's gonna look differently depending on the age and then we're looking for cooperation or collaboration. And so anywhere our kids can meet us in the middle, especially in the case of resistance, that's where they can learn. So it's less about being like you're over here and I'm all the way over here and you need to child come all the way and meet me on my side and I'm not budging. It's like saying, okay, where can we meet together on this line on this continuum? Wherever that is where, wherever that is is totally fine because that's where the learning is going to take place. And that's where your kid is going to slowly, depending on how much resistance slowly move towards like down the road to closer and closer towards where we want him to be, you know, but again, process long term perspective, resistance is normal. Resistance is okay and it can, it still works when you go through those 3 Cs.
Laura: And it may be even as an opportunity for deeper connection and understanding at the end of the day too, right? So resistance can be so useful. It can be such a great catalyst for for understanding. Okay. So can you I'm kind of curious if you have an example or a story from maybe a client or you know, one of your own family members that can highlight moving from a place of resistance and supporting your kid through that?
Samantha: Yeah, totally.
Laura: I love learning from stories.
Samantha: I know me too. I love, I love your questions by the way. Okay, so.
Laura: I'm putting you on the spot. So I'm sorry.
Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've got, well, I'm just like, I've got plenty to pull from, that's for sure. So if I have a kid who is okay, my six year old, very, very strong though. I tell him to do something 9times out of 10. He be like, he'll just look me straight in the face and go. No and walk away.
Laura: The demand avoidance is strong in that one.
Samantha: Yeah. Love him, love him.
Laura: Love it.
Samantha: So different things that I've done with him. And again, this is a younger kid. So these types of strategies are gonna look different for an older kid, but for a younger kid, I've found different ways that I can use connection to motivate him. One of the things that he really likes is like, hey, I'll say, hey, let's do the robot game and we're going to make your bed together and we are going to pretend like we're robots while we're doing it or even better. We're going to scan your room as a robot. And the second you see anything on the floor that needs to be put away, I want you to beat like robot, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
Laura: Alert, alert. That’s sounds like a fun game.
Samantha: And be, be, be beep and we'll walk over like moving our bodies like robot. I found a shirt on the floor. Beep, beep, beep. Now we're going to, you know, so again, no matter what we're doing, we're focusing even more on the fact that they did something like they picked up a shirt and put it away in the dirty laundry basket. We are focusing intentionally on the noticing part. Like what can you notice now? What can you know? You know what I mean? So it's like we're really, really teaching that skill first and foremost because it's one thing to learn how to clean a bathroom. It's an entirely different skill to learn when a bathroom needs to be cleaned. So, and then that could be enforced through the way we even praised them. Instead of saying, hey, thanks so much for making your bed. We just switch it to. Hey, you noticed that you needed to make your bed or you notice that your bed was not made and you did it. That's awesome. Thanks. Hey, thanks for noticing that that laundry needed to be folded and put away. Hey, you're so good at noticing. And so we're just really, really, really focusing on that part, first and foremost, to kind of create new channels in their brain.
Laura: I really love that. And I love too that just, I think even the simple act of saying that out loud makes that invisible load more visible to the whole family, right? You know, even just validating that noticing is a skill one that we don't give ourselves enough credit for. You know, like, I don't like most moms. If something's lost in the house, I'm the person who can find it usually, you know, and being able to like, hold that up as a skill that somebody can learn, it's not just a magic trick that moms can do, you know?
Samantha: Absolutely. And what's so interesting is even with, you know, my usually very resistant, strong little six year old son because we've had those conversations again and again and again, and we're using those words to reinforce and all those things. He can use the term mental load in a, in like, it blows my mind the way that he uses the word mental load in everyday conversation. And he's six, a six year old boy, like.
Laura: I love that.
Samantha: But they, they're so capable and he gets it. So even if like, I'm still having to give him more support than maybe I would like to sometimes one, he's a kid and he's learning and that's great. And two, he gets the underlying why behind it all the bigger picture stuff that when I imagine him as an adult man in a partnership, like it gives me goosebumps just thinking about it because he's gonna come into that relationship and be like, I know exactly what emotional and invisible labor is. I know what the mental load is. I know how to be as aware, proactive adult and anticipate me. And I know that it is not my, like, if he's in a heterosexual relationship, I know it's not my wife or a woman partner's job to do everything for me and for our family and that we operate as a team always. Like that's.
Laura: Oh, chills. That's the dream right there. Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. And I, I, I really love the, the reminder too that the, it, it's not just, it's not just for us, you know, in the here and now in the, our, our day to day is that where it's like, it's like this is a gift to give to our future, our future families, you know, as we, as our kids go out into the world and to their partners, their roommates, their friends and they, you know, one day their kids perhaps, you know, there, there's ripples to what we're doing. I really appreciated this conversation Sam. It was so fun to talk with you. I love learning from you. Why don't you tell us where folks can find you on sociasl so they can connect with you and I'll make sure all the links are in the show notes, but it's nice to hear that.
Samantha: Yeah, of course. Sure. So I'm on Instagram at samkelly_world. And that's where you can access, you know, all my resources, free guide if you wanna hop on the wait list for the audio, of course, you can do that there as well. Lots of free content that, you know, even I've had so many parents reach out and say I just from your free content alone, like huge shifts.
Laura: Yes. I mean the same. Yes.
Samantha: Are happening in my home. Yeah, so check it out. You'll love it. And I'm just honored that you reached out and had me.
Laura: I'm so grateful that you came on. I, you know, there's, I, I think you're doing really a lovely service for the world. So I really appreciate that so much. Thank you for being here.
Samantha: Thank you.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!