Episode 183: The Science of Playful Parenting with Dajana Yoakley
/The 30 Days of Play Challenge is BACK! Normally I only offer this challenge once a year, but I’ve revamped it so that you can now access it at the time that is right for you! If that’s now, you can sign up here: www.laurafroyen.com/playchallenge If that isn’t right now, that’s ok too, you can sign up whenever you want and move at your own pace!
Regardless, I hope this week’s episode helps make playful parenting feel more doable and fun for you! This week, we’ll delve into the importance of playful parenting and how incorporating playfulness can lead to more connection, cooperation, and peace in the home. Our guest expert, Dajana Yoakley, a mom of three, is a certified Peaceful Parenting Coach and Parenting Educator. She trained under Dr. Laura Markham, the queen of peaceful parenting and Dr. Lawrence Cohen, the father of playful parenting.
Here are some of the key takeaways:
Understanding the benefits of play for children’s development
The importance of playful parenting
Why play may be hard for some parents (and the need for inner work)
Using play to engage cooperation
If you need support or guidance for playful parenting, visit Dajana’s website www.delightinparenting.com and follow her on Facebook @dajanayoakley, Instagram @dajanayoakley and on her Youtube @delightinparenting.
We hope these insights inspire you to explore playful parenting and discover the transformative power of play in your family's journey towards greater connection and harmony.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. Before we jump into this week's episode, I just wanted to invite you to join our play challenge. Now, in the past, we used to run this play challenge live every January and I have to be perfectly honest, my capacity to support that challenge hasn't been as high. So I skipped it this past January and in the time in between, I've been making it a, a challenge that you can sign up for any time. This way, you don't have to wait until January. You can actually go and do the challenge anytime you're ready for it and you can sign up now at laurafroyen.com/playchallenge. So this episode will support you in your play challenge. And then there's also a private podcast that goes along with the challenge to support you even further in deepening your understanding of how important your child's play is and how you can get more peace cooperation and connection through play with your kiddos. All right. Enjoy the episode.
Okay. Hello everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen. And on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, we're gonna be talking about playful parenting and why it's so important how you can use it in a way that feels authentic and good to you and how it can help you get more connection and cooperation and peace in your home. So, for this conversation, I'm bringing in a peaceful parenting expert, Dajana Yoakley. And she has recently trained with Doctor Laura Markham, the, you know, queen of peaceful parenting and Doctor Larry Cohen as the father of playful parenting. So two really like awesome places to be trained in. I'm so excited to be talking about this topic with you, Diana. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do and then we'll dive in.
Dajana: Yeah. Thanks for having me. So excited to talk to you. Yeah. So I again, I'm a mom of not again, but I'm a mom of three. I have three kids under the age of 12 and so play is a big part of our household. And really cult a household of playfulness, but as, as a peaceful parenting coach and recently trained as a parent educator and certified with Doctor Larry Cohen. I've really seen kind of the, the neuroscience behind play and understand why it's so important and, in really parenting overall and building connection, and, you know, making the household more peaceful and getting cooperation, getting kids to listen and cooper in using resources that don't that don't feel like force to them, you know?
Laura: Yeah. Okay. So, so yeah, can you tell us some of the, like the, I, I mean, I always love it when we can geek out. So tell us what have you learned? What are some of the things like, what are some of the benefits of play?
Dajana: Yeah. So I would say if we can reframe play, you know, generally I think parents will kind of dismiss play as children's work. But when we rethink about play in terms of the nervous system and I love, you know, the neurobiology of peaceful parenting and playful parenting when a child is playing on their own or with you, they're really in a state of nervous system safety. Their nervous system feels safe enough to play. They're in a state of connection, whether it's with you or with uh you know, themselves or with the world that they're in. And so when we, when our kids are having a hard time they're struggling with big emotions or struggling with challenging behavior. One of the best ways to reframe that is that their nervous system is in a state of unsafe, feeling unsafe, right? When they're having big emotions or challenging behavior, they're they're not feeling like they have emotional well being right now in that moment. And so when we introduced the element of play, we're signaling to the child and we're tapping into this interpersonal safety, this creating safety in our bodies. Rough housing is one of the most foundational ways to play with kids, not just because kids love it, but because the body is the container of our emotional experiences, right? And rough housing gets the giggles going. Laughter is the antidote to anxiety. It's the antidote to feeling stuck, right? Because laughter is a neurobiological expression of safety.
Again, when you think about primates playing or roughhousing, they're queuing to each other that they're not a predator. So when your child is having challenging behavior with you or in the household, they're sending signals of, you know, this feels like a threat either inside of me or outside of me or I don't feel connected to you. And so when you incorporate play in your relationship with your child, you're signaling to them without verbally saying anything. You know, we often tend to, as adults, we often tend to go to lectures and we want to explain to them in, in compassionate words, why things are the way they are. We want to talk about feelings and there's a time and place for that. But especially for little kids and, you know, don't underestimate the power of play with teenagers even, you know, pillow fights and different activities like that. When you play, you're kind of going below the radar of like the linguistic element, right? You don't have to tap into the language in the child's brain. You basically just go to the somatics, you're going to their body when you can play and get them laughing, get them giggling. It's not manipulative. It's really an intelligent way, it's an intelligent way to relate to a mammal, a primate um and create safety and connections. So you can influence their nervous system state for more cooper operation within your household.
Laura: Oh my gosh, no, it's and I love, I love what you're saying and I think it's so true, you know, so early in my own parenting journey, I had feelings of, I don't know, concern about using playfulness to get my kids to do things because it felt a little manipulative until I sat down and really thought about what was actually happening here. You know, really speaking the language, the language of the body, the language of connection, the language of play for these kids and how there's nothing more respectful than meeting a person where they are and speaking their language. But I do think that parents feel worried that, you know, I, I think, I guess maybe we can talk about concerns in a minute after we talk about kind of. So what does playful parent like? What does playful parenting mean? How can it increase cooperation? But I do think that parents are concerned around. I have cons, you know, the things I hear are well, should I, you know, why can't they just listen to me when I tell them to do it the first time? Why do I have to put on some big show to get, you know, to get them to do things or isn't it like, isn't it, you know, inauthentic, you know, or isn't it? You know, why, you know, why is it? So, you know, I don't want to have to do those things. That's a lot of energy just to get a kid to brush their teeth, you know, and we talk about that a little bit too?
Dajana: Yeah, I think you're right. You know, it, it is like, almost like this framework of respecting people's languages. Like if you were to go to a foreign country on vacation and you're, you're tourists, you're looking at their different things they have on display and they speak their language because they live there you're visiting and so you're like, can you guys say it in English because it's like a lot of work and like, you know, for me to say it in your language and, you know, and I'm paying for this. So can't we just, like, make it easier for me? Yes, that's, that's kind of what I think sometimes it feels like for parents. Like, why do they have to travel to this child's land and speak their language when the child lives with me in this house? It's like, you know, I created them, I'm the parent and it's almost like this battle for like whose needs are gonna get met first. Like who you know, and, and yes, there's a time and place for play. It's not to say that kids are more important than parents. Everybody is equally important.
Let's respect everybody's needs, but it's also respect the fact that their primary way of relating to the world is play. That is their first language. That's how babies operate. They don't speak first, they play first up through like the pre teen years. That is the way that they experiment explore the world. That's how they get input from the world. They engage with it in a playful way. And so just kind of respecting that, that is how they actually understand it better. So if we want to be more effective, we should speak in a language that they understand clearer and more more quickly and more coherently when we say it in our adult ways, we're actually asking them to do more work than we're doing. Right, we're saying like you come up here where I am in, in the, in the, in the adult world where we, where I say things and you respond and we have a conversation and we talk about limits and rules and it's like, and, and it's almost like the expectation on the kids is higher than the expectation on ourselves.
Now again, we can, it's parenting is hard and I'm not blaming parents. I think what, you know, you talk a lot about internal family systems and I think there's a part of us that feels like my needs matter too, as a parent, my needs matter too. And why can't these kids for one meet my needs? Right? And so then it's like who's going to come to your rescue? Is the kid going to have to come to your rescue and make it easier for you in this moment? Or can you support yourself with kind of the inner wisdom and self compassion and give yourself what you need first kind of that self regulation. And then step two go into connection with your child to as the adult, as the one that kind of, you know, gave them life or brought them into your world. You're the parent, you have to take responsibility even when it doesn't feel like it's something that you want to be doing right now. Right? It's kind of the work of adulthood and parenting on that.
Laura: Yeah, I know. I really, I love what you're saying. And I, I mean, so it's so important that we under, you know, that we understand this, this tricky balance of, yes, we are the parents and we, you know, we have these kids and we are responsible for them and sometimes we have to like, you know, put our, our needs aside and go to their level and everything. And at the same time, we are human beings who have needs, but it's not our child's responsibility to meet those needs, right? It's our responsibility to figure out. Okay, so how am I going to get these needs met so that I can show up for myself and for my kids in the best way that I can, you know, like it's, it's about like that balance is so tricky and so important to really peace out. And I think the piece of it that is helped me when I talk, when I think about peaceful parenting, not peaceful parenting, playful parenting. Sorry, is that I'm gonna spend the time anyway. If my three year old is refusing to brush their teeth, I'm gonna spend the time anyway. And that time can be spent in battles, in bribery and you know, and you're doing it like force, you know, it can be spent in that way or it can be spent in, you know, getting a pretend phone call from our local zookeeper who tells me that, you know, animals are hiding in my children's teeth, you know, I'm gonna spend the time either way.
And playful parenting allows me to spend the time, get the job done and connect and feel good about it. Not, and not just, you know, and, you know, I, you know, I know, I know we're not supposed to just do stuff. I know. No, it's okay. It's okay for us to want to enjoy parenting. It is, right? It's okay for us to want to enjoy parenting. It's more fun for me. It's more fun for them and it's more fun for me when I give myself that permission to just go to them, meet them where they are, be that playful person. Allow, let the play make it easy. I don't like brushing my teeth, even, even as an adult, I usually read my kindle while I'm brushing my teeth. It's boring. I get it, it's way more fun to have your parent brushing your teeth, you know, finding hidden animals, you know, from the zoo than to just sit there and do it. You know, it's, it makes sense that they don't want to do some of those things. It makes sense that we would want to be able to have more fun in connection and play. And I just, anyway, yeah, with your thoughts.
Dajana: Yeah. And I would add that, I think we, when we kind of go into adulthood, we, we stop playing in a way like kids play and we start playing in a different way. Like reading the Kindle is kind of a form of play for play to flow, right? Like it's your preferred way to play. Whereas a kid I want to, you know, brush the sink with their toothbrush or whatever, like, it's a different kind of play because we have different, you know, mature brains, but we're still playing like as adults, we're still playing just in our own preferred way. So it's almost like when you think about siblings and they're trying to negotiate a game to play, maybe they're different ages like three years apart or something and they have different ideas about how the game should go. So it's like, yes, what would make this pleasant for me versus what would make it pleasant for my kid? And then it's like, can we find a win, win because, you know, parents shouldn't feel like they're, they have to play, you know, again, we can talk about parts as well, like finding there's a playful part somewhere but that you can try to like, you know, kind of bring more into like conversation, like by allowing these other parts of resistance to kind of have their speak and then move to the side a little bit, create some space for other parts.
Maybe the playful part can come out and tell, you know, have a chance to speak once these other parts kind of shift aside by really looking within like one of the one of the foundational aspects of playful parenting is looking within yourself if you have a hard time playing with your child. But also finding like a balance. Again, you don't have to play all of your kids favorite games, you can play one of their favorite games and then invite them to play something that you also enjoy. So what do you like to play that they also enjoy playing? And can you meet in the middle? Look for a win, win. So it's not always just dinosaurs and trucks, but sometimes maybe it's you know, some game that you like, you know, that is still playful in, in their world as well, but maybe it's not their game. And so you kind of take turns again, kind of like thinking about those siblings with different brain development stages, they play, eventually they end up playing, but they find a way to negotiate, they find a middle ground where we can bend the rules a little bit. So everybody's happy and we can still coexist. So knowing that our kids have preferences for different types of play and we have preferences for our types of play. But how can we meet in the middle? So we can still connect because when we're not even joining them, we're not connecting and connection is the foundation of parenting. It's more than 80% of your parenting influence comes from the connection. And so we've got to get into their world or invite them into ours. But again, it takes a little bit of negotiation and finding the right kind of fit for, for us to play.
Laura: Dajana, I love that balance that you're putting in there too because I think we sometimes we feel like we get the message that we just have to lay ourselves on the altar of motherhood and sacrifice ourselves and just do it for the kids and that we don't have to do that. If you find legos mind numbingly boring, you don't have to play Legos but find something that meets your needs and your kids needs. I really love that you're highlighting that and I also really appreciate you bringing in that parts work piece around. If, if there is resistance, there might be a reason why and there might be an invitation to look closer to go inside. Thank you for that so much. I wanna be super respectful of your time and I want to make sure that we get to talk about. Okay. So there's like these two paths of playful parenting, there's playing with your kids and then there's using play to engage cooperation. And I think that that's the one like we all know we're supposed to play with our kids, right? Maybe we do, maybe we don't. But the the using play to engage cooperation, can we talk about like what that can look like in practice and maybe how parents can get ideas because kids are so different around like the points and their routines and rhythms where they're sticking points and how they can bring playfulness in to maybe make those things go more smoothly and how play works for that, how it makes it easier for cooperation to happen?
Dajana: Yeah, I mean, I would say in general follow your child's lead. So 90% you know, when you're trying to incorporate play into like a transition or in a challenging situation, you still want to follow your child's lead. So maybe like, so 90% of it is like your child's leads, let's say your child leads the play because they have to find it playful. If they don't, it's not play. It's an order from mom or dad to engage with the legos, right? And so like whatever they kind of find playful, it has to be kind of, that had to be the foundation, but you can be the one that kind of throws the idea in there and then kind of like the crumbs, throw in some crumbs and let them come closer because you know, that that's something that maybe they've engaged with in the past that they find enjoyable. And so you're kind of like suggesting maybe very tentatively or throwing something out there or setting it up in a way that is very in incentivizing for them. And then, but it's in the context of following their lead because this is something that they would enjoy. And so, it makes it easier because of the science of a safety transitions are easier, challenging behavior gets a dampened and, reduced with play because you're introducing, they understand play as safety. And so when you need to get something done, you want to get your kids to listen and cooperate, if they go into their Amygdala, they're going to be looking at, you know, they're operating from kind of an anxious perspective.
And your problem gonna be one of the things that looks like a predator to them and you want to get them on your side, right? You're trying to get something done, you want to get their cooperation, you want them to listen. And so always think about how, how play really, resonates as a safety message. It's a cue of safety. And so how can you introduce, you know, play and in a moment of transition again, it's gonna depend on your kid because different kids find different types of way ore, you know, interesting, different styles like somebody that's, sensory avoidant might not enjoy you like jumping out from behind the wall and, and scaring them in a funny way like, right. But other kids that are like, you know, that love like a hide and seek chase game. If you did that and then run out the door, who's going to be faster to the car to get to school, they might love that. And so it depends on your child and kind of looking at individual differences. But I think you first have to kind of observe your child outside of the context outside of this situation to understand like, what do they, what are they drawn to? What types of things do they do their peaks, their attention? What did they look up for when, when something interesting happens And then using those, strategically, use those types of plays and, and kind of again, 10% just throw in the little fishing line and wait for the fish to come because they can't resist it, right? It's, it's their language and it's queuing them for safety.
Laura: Can I share some just examples from one of my kids who really loves? Like, so she has my youngest who's 8. She still has a hard time with transitions. They're still really hard. And so I have, I mean, and they have been for a long time. So I, I have lots of playful strategies that we use to make it through transitions. Now that she's older, she just asks for them. Mommy, I'm having a really hard time getting dressed this morning. Can you please make the clothes eat me? You know, so like when she's littler, I would make all of her clothes, eat her and they would, you know, as I put her pants on and I'd squeeze her legs. She loves sensory input. I'd go nom. nom, nom, nom, nom. And they, you know, eat her. But like, she also loves, like, little, it is very intrigued by little things moving on their own. And so, like, when it's time to clean up her legos, which is always a battle, you know, sometimes I will just go, like, lay on the floor and start moving them in a line and, like, make them hop into the bucket by themselves and I'll make them, like, make like a little like who like and look at her, you know, and then like, hop into the bucket and she'll be so delighted that she just starts doing it too.
And then we're getting the legos cleaned up. You know, like those are, those types of things are. But you have, you, you're so right, you have to get to know your child. And I think like, it takes time to do that. You know, that's why, like in my 30 days of play challenge, I have you, I have the parents doing 10 minutes of daily play observation a day so that they can get to know their kids because play is where their kids really, you know, where they shine, where they show us what's important to them, who they are. And we can't do playful parenting if we don't know those things. So I really love that. It's 90% child led and you have to be really observant picking up on what would they, like? What would make this easier? What could make this go more smoothly for them not to manipulate them, but to just make life more enjoyable, life is meant to be lived and enjoyed and connected, you know. Yeah, I love that.
Dajana: Yeah. And it's in the framework of like, yeah. And I think it's in the framework of like, instead of thinking like, well, they should just do what I say when it's, when kids are defiant and they resist and they're having challenging behavior, it's not because they love to live in that, in that state of stress, it's stressful for them when you're, when they pick up on signals from you that, that they're being difficult, they don't like that. They want to be in harmony with you, they want to be in connection. Because that's how they're wired, they're wired for attachment with you. And so when things are.
Laura: Even if it seems like they like it.
Dajana: Right. Right. Yeah. And when they're having a hard time play can make it easier, because they're good people, these kids we have are all good people just like we're good people. And so when things are hard and they can't just get it together and listen, the fifth time play can help. It's like, can we give them a hand, can we reach out to them and say I'm here to help you versus, you know, staying far back and saying we're not going anywhere till you learn this all on your own, you're on your own. And again, that's not peaceful. Parenting is about supporting our kids and it's about mastery and high expectations. But people can only, you know, do things hard things when they have support and including our children. So play is just really a tool to help them get to where they want to go to.
Laura: Yeah, I love that. Diana. Thank you so much for your time. Will you make sure that everybody can find you? I know you've got a new podcast coming out and you do a beautiful summit. I would love to you know, how do you support parents?
Dajana: Yeah, I have a my website is delightinparenting.com and you can find all of my content on there and, and my podcast is launching in the beginning of 2024 Delight in Parenting with Dajana Yoakley. So I'm excited to share more resources on peaceful parenting, playful parenting. And just how we can bring more delight into into our households. And yeah, I support parents with a one on one coaching and I also have a new course on self compassion and peaceful parenting. And so, yeah, just working on, you know, kind of bridging the research and science of child development and neurobiology with day to day parenting and making it really practical and useful for people to apply these concepts to live more joy, joyful lives um with their kids. So, thank you so much for having me.
Laura: Dajana, I think we're kindred spirits. And so every, you know, listeners, please make sure you go check out her podcast and if she's the right teacher for you, you know, join her programs, I'm sure they're wonderful. I think it's so important that we find our teachers and find our mentors all through the course of our lives. We have things to learn and we find the right teachers at the right time. So, I hope that there's somebody listening who finds, finds you because gosh, you seem like it'd be fun to learn from.
Dajana: Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!