Episode 174: True Attachment Parenting - How Understanding Your Own Attachment Can Change Your Parenting with Annette Kussin

Welcome to another episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast. This week, we're delving into the fascinating world of adult attachment and how it shapes our parenting styles. I'm joined by Annette Kussin, a psychotherapist and a social worker based in Toronto. Annette is the author of two books called It’s Attachment and Secure Parent, Secure Child. We'll explore how understanding your attachment style can significantly impact how you raise your children, fostering a greater sense of safety within your home. 

Here are some of the takeaways:

• Explore Annette Kussin's journey into attachment theory

• Difference between infant attachment and adult attachment

• Influence of attachment on parenting 

• Examples of adult attachment categories in parenting

• Explore the connections between parental attachment and its impact on the child's developing brain

To connect directly with Annette, you can email her at akussin@bellnet.ca, and her website www.annettekussintherapy.com.

Resources:

• It's Attachment: A New Way of Understanding Yourself and Your Relationships

• Secure Parent, Secure Child: How Parent's Adult Attachment Shapes the Attachment of the Child

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to be exploring how your own adult attachment style impacts the way in which you parent your children and how to kind of take that information to increase a felt sense of safety within your home. To help me with this conversation, I have an adult attachment expert who is a practicing psychotherapist and social worker in Canada Toronto. Her name is Annette Kussin and I'm so excited to have her here. We are gonna geek out about attachment so be prepared my dear listener. Annette, welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself? You know who you are, what you do and then we'll jump in. 

Annette: Thanks, Laura. Thank you for having me. I'm so pleased to be here. So, as you said, I'm a social worker and psychotherapist marriage and family therapist. And I have been interested in attachment for many, many years and then interested in adult attachment, also many years, but a little more recently, I'm trained in it. And I've trained to do the adult attachment interview. I've worked with, Dan Hughes. I was part of a group that he started, I worked with adopted children and their attachment issues again for many years. But it certainly wasn't my original work, but that's kind of what I've been focused on, now for, oh, probably 2020 years, at least so. It's absolutely my belief system if I see the world from a detachment lands and certainly all of the issues that I see. At this point in my career, I'm mainly interested in training. So I get lots of workshops, I supervise people and writing. So I've written two books and I hope I will continue to write. 

Laura: Yeah, two lovely books on attachment. 

Annette: Mhm. 

Laura: Can you tell us just kind of before we get started? I think a lot of our listeners will be familiar with attachment theory and how it applies to young children and infants. They know the difference between attachment theory and attachment parenting, the mode of parenting popularized by the seers and how they're really not related at all. So they understand those things, but what is the difference between infant attachment and adult attachment? Can you tell us how they're related and kind of just a frame or conversation? 

Annette: So adult attachment certainly is based on your early attachment experiences, but it is also based on what happens to you in your later childhood and adolescence. So it's sort of both kind of experiences, so you can have had a difficult early childhood experience. But if you have some positive experiences later, then that might might change your adult attachment. But typically your early childhood attachment is also going to evolve into your adult attachment. And it's based on again, the work of Mary Ainsworth and Mary May, and they certainly establish the category of the adult attachment by trying to understand the mothers of the children that they had already determined their attachment. So it's very much connected but other experience after early childhood can also very much influence the evolution of your attachment. 

Laura: Okay. And so how would the average person see their own adult attachment style manifested in their daily lives? Maybe not even as parents, just adults? 

Annette: Yeah. So, again, there are three categories of adult attachment or four categories of adult attachment, similar to child attachment. So, uh what's interesting is that Mary May who established this gave them a different name in adulthood. And I'm not quite sure why I've been trying to find that out. So secure attachment in children is called autonomous attachment in adults. And it, it really makes sense because it means if you have a secure attachment as an adult, then you have the capacity both to sort of be in intimate relationships. But you also have the capacity to be a separate autonomous human being. So it just, it, it is that combination that I think is, is why the name autonomous is really useful and relevant. 

Laura: Yeah, I like that, you know, because the attachment is really all about autonomy and relatedness and the interplay between the two. And so, yes. Yeah. 

Annette: So if you're gonna be a secure adult, you have that capacity for both union and separate. 

Laura: Yeah, I love it. 

Annette: Yeah. And then there's three insecure attachments again, similar to child attachment. So the the first is called preoccupied attachment, which is anxious attachment in childhood. So people with a preoccupied attachment have a lot of anxiety or are pretty dependent kind of human beings. Their whole sense of self is based on their relationships. They are highly sensitive to being abandonment for somebody not being available and then they have real poor capacity to regulate their effect. So if somebody's not available, they're gonna become highly anxious, very angry. And we'll have difficulty controlling. So that's kind of a very basic description of, of that avoidant attachment, a child that is called dismissing. 

And again, it does make sense because it means if you have been an avoidant child, then you avoid intimacy, you, you devalue you know, attachment and connection. And then as an adult, you continue that. So you try to avoid close relationships, you're much more emphasizing accomplishment, achievement, the activities that you have, and therefore, again, you're less emotionally available. And again, there are ranges so you can have a dismissing where you're truly out of touch with feeling. So if somebody said, how are you feeling, you actually would not even know what they're asking and, and versus somebody who kind of touch with feelings, but just can't express them. So, again, very difficult for people that are dismissing to be vulnerable, to be emotionally available, but they can be very successful in their lives. So these are, you know, typically would be your workaholic, you know, highly successful in their job. But if you ask the people who are close to them, what they're like in those relationships that for you would hear, you know, he's not emotionally available, right? 

Laura: Why is that? Why, why would someone, why would an avoidant attachment style in childhood and a dismissive attachment style in adulthood? Why would that be protective or helpful for, you know, like what, why does that develop? 

Annette: Well, it, it typically develops if you have an avoidant attachment means you have parents that really are not emotionally available to you. So you end up shutting down your needs, your wants, your feelings because nobody is available to meet them. But you might come to believe, but if I'm really good at what I do, if I really become the perfect student, the perfect sports person, maybe that will bring some closeness to parents. So typically if you have those kind of narcissistic parents or parents who are also dismissing and overvalue achievement, that child will do anything. I mean, all of attachment is we do anything to get close. And that's how again, it's all in the service of getting both to parents, but it does mean you don't you're not in touch with and you don't value your own needs, your own, wants your own interests. So just repress all of that. 

Laura: Oh, I thought, you know, it's interesting as I'm hearing you describe these and I know we have one more to, to look at, but I'm just thinking about the listener, and I for me it's so much easier to see my parents in those to like not like notice my experience and I feel like it must be hard sometimes to see yourself to give that like kind of a, a self assessment. It's hard for us to be honest and aware and introspective on kind of what's going on for us. So maybe after you tell us about the kind of that last adult attachment style, maybe we can talk about how we can figure out for ourselves because it's so easy to look at other people and see their patterns, you know. But much harder for ourselves. 

Annette: Yeah. Okay. So the la the last one is on. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. 

Laura: I'll share you my own experience because when I was reading about adult attachment and, and how useful it would be to see clients. I read about myself and I was totally, I mean, I didn't in therapy, I've been a therapist and when I read about dismissing because that's kind of part of what I am I thought oh my God, that describes me. And I wish that I had known about that particular category or been able to understand myself from that lens because it turned out to be very helpful. 

Laura: Yeah.

Annette: So I actually think it's a very helpful and useful way of understanding.

Laura: Oh, me too 100%. 

Annette: Yeah. 

Laura: Okay. So the last category it for infants is disorganized attachment, right? So no clear strategy for how to bring a caregiver closer. What a what, how does that manifest in adulthood? 

Annette: So it's called unresolved in adulthood because typically it means you had traumatic experiences that never got resolved in your childhood, in your later childhood, in your adolescence. And so they're kind of still getting played out and you're right, people kids that have disorganized attachment, it means but there's no strategy that they developed to be able to get close to the parent because the parent was pretty frightening or unpredictable. So these are kids that just did not have an organized way of getting parents involved and that continued. But in adulthood really is that you see the world in relationships is pretty dangerous. So you might have a little more of an organized strategy. And that's really gonna partly depend on how you responded to the frightening experiences in childhood, how your brain responded, like, like freeze. Right? So, so by adulthood, you might have one of those that's a more organized strategy, but typically you're still pretty disorganized internally and that's how I was, all people would describe themselves if they just feel that disorganization internal. And so again, they have a really difficult time in relationships. They're triggered by all kinds of experiences that they never got resolved. So it is a really painful and difficult attachment category that.

Laura: Yeah, I know when I was before I went to grad school, I worked in a lab that in, in an attachment lab. And a it was in a, a marriage conflict research project, like a marital conflict research project, but they did strange situations with the families that were in the in the study. And so I got to code strange situations with older children with. And so it was a, a kind of an adapted protocol that mean put together. Anyway, so I there was one child who had a disorganized attachment in it and it was really just disconcerting to see her response to when she was left alone in the room, she had a freeze response and she just froze and stood like a statue the entire time and it was really sad and really hard to see and I can imagine that painful feeling within, within a person, that sense of that, of disorganized, not knowing what to do overwhelm could be really intense as an adult too. 

Annette: Well, absolutely. But as a parent, if you haven't, so attachment, it means you're going to pretty much repeat but having as a child, you don't have an organized way of being a parent either. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I feel, I feel like it makes complete sense to me that understanding these aspects for yourself would be really helpful in understanding kind of the default language that maybe comes out of our mouth. When we're in tricky moments with our kids and but before we get there, I would really love to know. So how can a parent, you know? So they heard themselves a little bit as we were talking here. But how could a parent go about figuring out their own adult attachment style so that they can understand, kind of where they're coming from and meet themselves with a little bit more grace and compassion and awareness

Annette: Yes, I'm glad you added that piece because what's really important in understanding adult attachment is it's truly a nonjudgmental way, understanding yourself. And that's the baseline. So it's really important that you don't do this critically even if you're in an insecure category. That you have to be kind to yourself. As you begin to understand, I have these, you know, limitations in the way I'm parenting and the way I'm being in a relationship.

Laura: So I, I'm so glad you brought like that you held that up to the light and I, I really appreciate it. My favorite phrase to use when we're talking about things like it, this is, and it makes sense. It makes sense that a person would have these strategies, given what they went through as children. It, these all of these things make really good sense. 

Annette: So that's exactly right. It makes sense. It's non judgmental and it's also important that you don't judge your own parents. 

Laura: Yes. Does that make sense too?

Annette: Got passed down to them. We wanna certainly break the generational, you know. 

Laura: Yeah, I mean, that's what so many of the our listeners are attempting to do. I call them my inflection point parents. They, they're the point in their family history where things are gonna change and that's what they're wanting to do. And so we can't do that without awareness. So if we're at that stage, we're looking to see okay, so what is my adult attachment style? How can they go about finding, finding out? 

Annette: So, I mean, the most accurate way is to have somebody do your adult attachment interview. So that's a structured questionnaire that somebody has to be trained to do it. And then it is scored and that when somebody offers you the feedback. Now, the limitations of that are that there are very few people trained to offer and score the adult attachment interview and it takes hours so it is expensive. Most people in public service, I mean, if you work for an agency, I don't imagine any agency is gonna give you hours and hours and hours to do this. If you're in private practice, you're not gonna be able to charge somebody hours and hours and hours of your time. So, if it is more limited, however, I think we started to use it more flexibly. So when I started doing this, I was sure that Mary name is going to come and find me and see me because I've been using it more flexibly. But I think, you know, since Dan Siegell and, and lots of other people have come to really say we have to be able to use this more use, you know, in a, in a more clinically useful way and in a more flexible way.

Laura: It can't just stay in the ivory tower of our literature, like, you know, in journals that the public can't access. And that's one of the primary reasons why I left academia because I was, I was, I wanted to be on the ground with parents. 

Annette: So it is a research tool and a very valuable one.

Laura:  Of course.

Annette: But I really like it to really help people want a therapist to use it, you know, more flexible clinically and I trained people to do it. So I train people, but I make it very clear what we're getting is an impression of one's adult attachment. This is not like this, you know, research that would be absolutely accurate. It is an impression. So that's certainly one way to learn about your adult attachment. And the other thing is really to look at the different categories and the behavioral descriptions. And to see which fits now, sometimes people don't fit into one category, but I tend to think that you would really identify with one particular category over another and you can have more than one. So you can have a primary and then you can have a secondary, maybe even tertiary. But typically we have one particular way of being in relationships that we use, you know, in our most intimate relationships so, and in our parenting. So in my first book, it's attachment, I certainly list, you know, the descriptions in a pretty, yeah, clear kind of way. So thats so people can really begin to see themselves in, in a particular category or not. I repeat that a little bit in this book. So, you know, again that I think.

Laura: Her first book was It’s Attachment and then her second book is Secure Parents, Secure Child. 

Annette: So that's, that's I think the best way for most people is to look at the behavioral descriptions of each category and see which kind of applies to you best, you know. And that, and makes sense to you. Again, it really is, makes sense. 

Laura: Yeah, I love that makes sense, little line.

Annette: And then you will see how it also makes sense in the way that you parent. And again, it is nonjudgmental. So I've got to keep emphasizing that. So, you know, even if you see yourself in a really insecure category, it's just a kind way of understanding yourself and it really will offer you ways to change. 

Laura: Okay. So I feel like we could go one of two ways right now, Annette. One is to go into the i the prospect of changing of becoming more secure within ourselves and having that be reflected in our parenting. And the other one is to kind of give some examples of what different parents look like in different scenarios. And I know you have tons of examples in your book. So we certainly don't want to give them all right now, you know, because it would just would take too much time. But I think a couple of examples would be really helpful. So maybe we'll go there first and then we can talk about how we can maybe move and shift into more secure interactions with our kids. 

Annette: Okay. So maybe we can look at the different categories, I'll kind of do a brief description of them and give you an example and then we'll, you know, then we'll look at how do you change that. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah, sounds good. 

Annette: So the first of course, is preoccupied attachment and, and as I was saying, that's where people really have poor ethic regulation, they're typically very dependent people. So again, their whole sense of self is based on relationships and they're hypersensitive to somebody not being available to them. So those patterns of that kind of neediness is really gonna be in your adult attachments. However, if you are really worried about where is my husband, my partner, why didn't he call me? You know, he said he would call me at noon and he didn't call me and you're just preoccupied with that, that's going round and round in your brain and what I call the limbic loop. So you're just thinking about that all the time getting angry or more resentful. Well, if you're really stuck in that loop, you are not available to your children. In fact, you become annoyed by your children because you're worried about your own needs, right? And preoccupied with that and your children pick up, of course, you're not consistently available to them because you're somewhere else in your brain. So they start, you know, mommy, mommy, they're gonna do what they need to do even cause some problems all in the service of getting you involved. 
Laura: Getting you closer, yeah. 

Annette: Very hard and you're gonna get angrier and angry kids because you're worried about something else. So that's that dynamic. And you have to learn to really somehow pull yourself out of that preoccupation and be available to your children. And it just helps if you know that. And again, in a really kind way that. I know I'm really worried about why, you know, my husband John haven't called me but. 

Laura: And that makes sense, but.

Annette: I have to pay attention to my kids because they're my priority. 

Laura: Yeah. Can I ask a question? Do you ever see parents engaging in preoccupied be behaviors with their own children feeling insecure about their parenting wanting reassurance. Am I a good mom? You know that, you know, am I, you know, do you like being my kid? You know, that that kind of preoccupation, like having it flow that direction? 

Annette: Right. So there is sort of different ways preoccupied parents, parent, one is that they're really inconsistently available and the other is they're over involved.

Laura: Over involved. 

Annette: Because when I say your whole sense of self is based on relationship, it's also based on   your relationship with your kids. So you need them to be, you know, successful actor, but it really is for their own need. So I had a case once where this parent was to the the AI was telling me that her mother was like really involved in all these school activities. She went to every game she would be on the bus, organizing trips to wherever her kid, you know, was in this in the league hockey league or whatever. And this woman said to me, all I wanted was for my mother to leave me alone and.

Laura: A little space.

Annette: Not come on this trip because what gave this mother a sense of self and meaning in life was her kids activities and she needed her kid to be successful and being busy in all these activities for her needs, not her kid. So that is an example of again of a preoccupied mother who really is too occupied, too involved in her kids activities to meet her own. So then I. 

Laura: Yeah, yeah. So such a good example. Can I provide a personal example of, of this and what this can look like when you are aware and you're bringing that awareness to kind of the in the moment interactions. So I I definitely identify with leaning, preoccupied in my own attachment style. I have to be aware of it a lot. I feel very secure in my my relationship with my partner, we've done a lot of beautiful therapy, a lot of healing has happened there which is really good. But with my kids, I, I just have to be aware of it. I'm just not getting sucked into that feedback loop. I had a very preoccupied dad. He was exactly like the parent that you were just describing. And so I have to be just really aware of those things. So I go to my, when I'm feeling a little insecure about my relationship with my children instead of turning to them, I turn to my partner and I, and I help, I explain, I'm feeling insecure. I know I can get that reassurance for myself, but I'd love some reassurance from you. Am I a good mom? So I go to an adult to get that reassurance me and that and then I also have to be really present with myself in moments where I'm witnessing  other feedback in relationships. 

So just as an example, my daughter is just turned 11, today is her birthday. And her class went on a camping trip and she asked me to be the shop at be a chaperone because she wanted me there at night. I slept in my own tent. That was the plan, but she wanted me at their night. But then she asked me, she goes, but mom, I want you to treat me like I'm one of the all other kids like you. I'm not your daughter that I'm just one of the other students. And that was of course heard from me. There was another mom there who I had has a sweet relationship with her daughter and they were cozied up by the fire, you know, it was really rainy, terrible camping trip. I mean, it was a good camping trip, but it was terrible weather. So they were cozied up by the fire and my daughter wanted nothing to do with that. And so I had to be very aware and very present with myself in the moment while that was happening of meeting her stated need for my presence and what I needed versus my own kind of inner like, anxious need to be close to her and kind of have that feedback about a relationship. Do you know what I'm saying? So, I mean, that's exactly what we're talking about here, right? 

Annette: We're talking about. That's exactly right. 

Laura: And it's not easy. It, it was hard, a lot of like little self conversations, you know, our my parent relationship does not have to look like other people, you just lots of self reassurance, you know, but. 

Annette: But, but what you described is a great example of your own awareness. Yes, I mean, so that's what's really crucial  changing how you are with your kids. So, one of the things that I talked about in this book is that you may not fully change your attachment category. Like that takes a lot of years of therapy. But if you have the awareness, then you can say I have to, you know, not get over involved in my kid. That's my need. Just like you're saying, you have that self examination and self awareness that in itself will help, just not transfer your attachment to your child. 

Laura: Yes, that's always been my hope. 

Annette: Yeah, it's a great example. 

Laura: Yeah, okay. Thank you. Oh, that feels good, to my anxious little heart. Okay. So we talked about preoccupied parents. What about dismissing parents? 

Annette: Yeah. So dismissing parents are quite the opposite. So they're truly unemotionally available. Emotions are not, you know, something they're comfortable with themselves and have a really difficult time expressing that with kids. So again, they're the parents that are going to really emphasize achievement in their kids. They're going to be what we call executive functioning, loving parents. So they're gonna be good at, you know, having a wonderful meal and making sure your kids are in activities and taking your kids to activities. It can be well dressed and, you know, all of those things that aren't.

Laura: Also outside markers. Yeah.

Annette: But they, but it's not like real emotional love and being there for your kid in an emotional way, but they can appear to be good parents, right? And so we hear about that oh wow she's just an amazing mother, you know, she, her kid brings the best lunches to school and.

Laura: She’s so together, she's put together, right? 

Annette: But then you ask the child who would you go to for emotional support? And it wouldn't be mommy and it might not be daddy, right? So and then again, these are parents that are going to emphasize achievement in their children so they need their children, either to be, you know, high academic achievers or just to be a certain way, so it isn't necessarily academic achievement, it is to be the good child, it is to be the pretty child, whatever that is. That's how that gets passed on, but they really, are not emotionally available kids will come to know that pretty early in life and won't go, to their parent when they're emotionally upset and vulnerable.   And again, they learn to repress that as well. So, you know, a great example of that is I also had a, a client that it was a, his daughter had been a really high achiever and then suddenly stopped initially going is like a skipping classes, not being with her peers so much to the point that she actually withdrew from school and didn't, wouldn't get out of bed. 

And when I met with his father, because the mother was really concerned and really trying to emotionally support her kids when I met with the father, I actually did an a on him. But even before I did that, it turned out he was like, really dismissing and always felt terrible because he tried to be again, the best kid of the highest achieving and he never made it to the best university where he was and always felt like a failure, even though he was highly successful. And he had passed this, these values and this belief his daughter had that the way she got daddy loved. But she had to be like at the best marks in school and she got a really poor mark in one course, course and that just started this downward spiral where she felt she was not good enough. She was not going to start failing   and began to just withdraw rather than be able to go to her father and say daddy, I did really badly and this mark, I'm feeling badly about it and he would have supported her and said, you know, sweetie just, you know, I'm bad mark. You need some help in that savage. Mm mm mm She felt she was underachieving and just started to give up and tire. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Annette: So it was very sad now it turned out to be a good outcome. But you know that   because his father actually cried when he began talking about that. And was devastated to think he was passing this on to his child when, when he wanted to, to really, he wanted to protect his child. 

Laura: Of course he did. 

Annette: Yeah. She didn't have that, you know, feeling of failure, but in fact, he had passed, you know, his own beliefs on to this kid. So that's just one example. So, you know, when you talk about yourself, so I tend to be dismissing attached and I had to really look at that too and not, pass out on, you know, to children, because, I mean, one of the reasons I'm highly successful and write books is because I'm just missing attached and I can withdraw from everybody and focus, you know, on the app and then make sure, you know, I write, you know, for hours and do well. And I have to sort of say, oh, oh, wait, oh, no, I have to start with it, you know, checking and checking with all my friends I have ignored, you know, for.

Laura: I mean, I, I think I, I, so enjoy that you brought that up though because these, these parts of ourselves have been helpful for many of us. You know, they are, they're there, you know, for it to serve a purpose to keep us safe, to help us feel like we can, you know, belong in a world that's hard to belong in that we can be worthy of love and connection. That's what they, those parts are all there for, to, to protect us, keep us safe. And then they just become maladaptive over time when we're trying to have really meaningful connections. 

Annette: They were meaningful at the time. They were our belief about how we connect to our parents. But eventually again, they are not helpful in our intimate relationship and in our lives and we just have to look at that. And again, we are all capable of changing. We have to work hard to do that, but the first step is have that awareness, right? So if you are aware that you are   you know, dismissing parent, then you have to really know the way you're gonna have to work at is getting more in touch with your own healings, allowing yourself your own vulnerability. So then you'll be able to allow that  in the relationship you have with your children. 

Laura: I, you know, so a lot of the parents that I work with one on one. And in my, I have a membership community, a lot of them understand the principles of respectful, you know, conscious, you know, healthy parenting and they find it incredibly hard to put into practice because it's not their default wiring. And so we spend a lot of time kind of getting curious about your defaults and doing that healing work. And I, I think that for some parents out there, they hear the like they hear, oh this, I shouldn't, you know, use time outs or punishments. This is how I should, you know, help my child learn, you know. And then they just put it into practice. I feel like those parents probably have secure attachment relationships and are, are kind of already there and just need a little nudge in the right direction and it's easy. 

And for those of us who, for whom it's hard. And, you know, so I I teach this every day. Right? But it's not easy for me, you know, there's other people who teach things and it seems like it's very easy for them, you know, to , to, they, they teach respectful parenting and they live it and it's easy. That isn't, that is not my truth. That is not my lived experience and I think it comes down to that we have these things kind of going on under the surface that where we are attempting to work counter to kind of our wiring that has been laid down in childhood. And so doing that work of starting to change your parenting, changing maybe your attachment style. Where can we start with that? After awareness? Okay or becoming aware, after awareness.

Annette: You really pointed that out because one of the concerns I have is that all of the parenting courses that are out there and you know, the concepts are great, but you know, this whole concept of being present for your children. That's a lovely concept. But if you're a preoccupied attached parent, it's like a setup because you're.

Laura: What the heck does that mean? 

Annette: You know what you can get it intellectually, but for your brain to be present, you know, when it is in that.

Laura: Yes, exactly. 

Annette: Occupied loops. It is impossible. If you don't understand at first, what you just have to do is accept that that's how your brain works. And you have to work really hard. Okay? Or you, I want to say to your partner, listen, what really will help me be available to our children is if you, when you say you're gonna call me that you really call me or that some signal that, you know, you're really thinking about me. That's all that I need to kind of calm down and then I can be more available to our children. Like, you know, once you sort of both, you understand that in a couple, then, you know, then you can work out things that help somebody be more available. But just to, you know, that concept, you have to be present for your children. It's true. 

Laura: I, so I so agree. That's why I made, I, I made a course called Parenting From Within. That is all about like figuring out how to have this come authentically from within you, so that you don't have to fake it because so many of so many folks are just out there faking it, they get the scripts from Instagram and they say it to their kids and it means nothing because they're just saying what they think they're supposed to say. And not, it's not really coming from a deeper self understanding.

Annette: Right. But even if you, you know, again, you have the self understanding, it certainly helps you change. It's not easy. Again, if you're dismissing no, you have to be more emotionally available to your child or you have to say, well, how are you feeling that you did it? I was in that course leading, right? Okay, okay. Come naturally. So, but again, you need to know it's hard for your brain not to say, well, you didn't do well in that course, right? And even if you do come out with that, you know, your instinctive way of, of responding, you can say, I'm sorry, sweetie, you know what? I know I was really harsh but you not, not helpful. So like you can always prepare like.

Laura: Yeah, I was, I was gonna ask if we can talk a little bit about repairing. Before we jump in there, I just wanna keep talking just for a second about kind of changing. So, I mean, I think one of the greatest ways you can be working on changing these things is to be working with a therapist, working with someone who can guide you and really dig into stuff and dig into these pieces. Are there other ways folks kind of you that you would recommend folks seek about going through the changing process? 

Annette: Well, so that's what I talk about in my book. So I think yes to do the deeper work would be the most helpful way for you to be a pick. But again, not everybody has the luxury and the whatever. So again, what I'm kind of saying in my book is that if you could figure out your adult attachment simply from a description and who knows to come out, you know, if you decide or come out, recognizing that you're preoccupied, you know, you have to work really hard to get yourself, regulate it, to really work hard to be present for your kids. It's not easy for you. But there are guidelines that you really can use to help you start to parent differently while you're either working on yourself ideally or you might not have that blood sugar, whatever. It doesn't mean you can't really work on changing or parenting habits, whatever, you know. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. 

Annette: So I, I really make, make that clear in the book because I think again, we don't wanna set people up to say, well, if you don't really do the deeper work, then you will.

Laura: No, yeah.

Annette: Your parents, well, you know.

Laura: I mean, i, it's, you know, it's interesting. So my mom is likely dismissive, obviously never done me and her. But it's, it's interesting that she did not, she did not start becoming really aware of that until I became a parent and started really working on myself and on my own relationship with her. My dad has been unwilling to kind of do that work with me, but my mom is willing to step into the arena with me and now she has this awareness of like, oh gosh, Laura, I just shut down your feelings, didn't I? You know, I mean, and it's just so lovely and I'm, I'm turning 40 this year. You know, she's in her seventies. It's never too late to start doing this work, you know. The relationship I have with her is ever deepening and, you know, just delightful and so much better than it was in my teens and twenties. You know. It was great then too. She's a wonderful mom but I feel much more seen and heard with her on a regular basis now. Oh my gosh, it's such, it's such a gift. Yes, she doesn't listen to the podcast, but she has given me permission to, to talk about it sometimes. So let's talk a little bit about repair, ruptures and repairs which, you know, are a part of all relationships, healthy ones, secure ones, you know, mi there's missed cues even for secure parents and should we miss their cues and need to repair?   So let's talk a little bit about rupture and repair. 

Annette: So listen, we all have ruptures with our children. When you, you know, discipline your kid, you get angry at your child because we're all normal humans. You know, it inevitably happens. There is a rift. So in, in that moment you're really angry your child, you don't feel love for them even, even though you know, people, they, well, I love my child. Of course, I love my child traditionally, but in that moment, you don't feel it and your child doesn't feel it, uh that's normal. What's really important is the repair. So again, what we know where kids have not had that experience of repair. So kids from orphanages, I mean, well, you know, because I worked a lot with the doctor, kids came from orphanage or just, you know, non healthy functioning families that repair doesn't have. So parent, you know, that is again a use of parent, you know, yells and screams or at their kid and then doesn't next day say I'm really sorry, sweetie. Kids that don't have that repair really feel pretty terrible inside. They often hold a lot of shame because they think they are bad kids, right? Because they did something and your parent created this rift that doesn't get impaired. So what is really important is the repair. 

So then that child knows, well, I did something I shouldn't be doing but it didn't rupture the love that I have with his parent. So then they learned something. No, I guess I shouldn't have pulled those wires out of, you know, the TV or whatever, right? So that's the idea. Again, there's a rupture when you're angry at your kids. It is a rupture. You always can repair that and you can repair it even the next day. Let's just say you're so angry at your kid. You just cannot go and say, okay, sweetie, I wanna talk about what happened. I know mom got really, really mad at you let's just say you're just so angry at your kids. You just are not able to do that for a long time. That's not the best scenario, but you can repair at any time. So the case that I was describing where this girl, you know, for a long period of time felt that her father was rejecting her because she did poorly in the mark like that got repaired months later. But this father really was able to say, I'm really sorry. I didn't mean, you know, to pass this on to you. So you feel really terrible because he just got it on work so we can do repairs. You know.

Laura: Especially as the kids get older. Right? So they're younger. It maybe needs to happen a little bit more quickly because they have shorter memories. But as they get older, you know, one of the things I have to do for myself as. Oh go ahead.

Annette: But, but do you want to repair a rift as soon as possible as soon as you can? Yes. Because what if you are an adult and you have an argument with your partner or your spouse, whatever if you kind of believe? Oh my God, that's the end of this relationship. It's because you probably didn't experience repair. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Annette: If you have, and you know, you have a conflict with your partner, spouse and you think, well, okay, we're just fighting about the dishwasher. We're fighting about this, you know, it's not the end of the relationship. It's not gonna harm the relationship, it is about a particular   item issue we're fighting about if you, you know, again that just because you experience in structure and repair as a child. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Annette: So, so very much impacts on us as outs. So that's why it's so important. 

Laura: It is, you know, I noticed for myself as a preoccupied person, I, I sometimes rush to repair with, especially with my kids because I'm seeking that reassurance from, from them. And so I have to be really aware and careful with myself around. Am I seeking to repair so that I feel better or am I seeking to repair because they're ready and available so that I can, you know, and it's for them and for our relationship. And so I have to be super, super aware and careful with myself on that piece to, to not rush it. Whereas my husband who tends to be a little bit more dismissing, he has to be aware that it needs to happen at all. You know, he sometimes is just not even aware that there was a rupture, you know, he has to be kind of noticing those things more, but it's good to be aware of those things. 

And what's nice about for my husband and I is that we're so aware of each other that we, we help each other too, you know. So sometimes you know, I've had a, you know, conflict with one of the kids. My husband will, you know, hold me back and say, I know you really want to go make up with them right now. They need a few minutes to calm down. Why don't you just come with me, sit with me, talk with me and he'll help me regulate myself so that when the kids are ready, then I'm ready to, they, you know, the repair is happening at their speed for them. You know, because really that's what it's for. It's for them. We're adults, we need to be able to handle our stuff. 

Annette: Absolutely. Exactly. Well, good. That's very good relationship. Right. Oh, gosh, I'm so, I'm so lucky. He's, he's definitely been willing to, again, do, do the work with me. We got married while I was in grad school though. So I was in grad school for, marriage and family therapy. So that was kind of a, when we got married. I was like, you do know that we will most likely go to therapy multiple times. 

Laura: Okay. Well, so Annette, I feel like this conversation was super helpful. I wonder, I just wanna make sure that, our listeners can know where to go to find your book or to find you and learn more from you. So the books, your first book is called Its Attachment. And the next one is Secure Parents, Secure Child. And they're, they're lovely, like small doable books too. You know, they're not like, it's like heavy tomes. You know, most parents I know have like, a stack of 20 books on their bedside table that they're supposed to be reading. These ones are small and practical and with really good, illustrative examples which are really nice, you know, to read. But where can they go to find? I mean, so they can find these books wherever they get books. Yes?

Annette: They can find these books on Amazon. You know, most bookstores, I think.

Laura: Like independent bookstores. We love supporting those.

Annette:  And certainly get them for you. But the Amazon is the just the easiest way or the publisher of the books is Guernica but it's Ontario Canadian publisher, but you can get it from them. But I think the easiest way is through Amazon. 

Laura: And do you have a website or social media where you teach or where they, people can learn more? 

Annette: Yeah. So it's Annette Kussin, there annettekussintherapy.com. 

Laura: Okay. 

Annette: And people can contact me directly at my, so my email address is on my website or it's akussin@bellnet.ca. So people have questions or, you know, just wanna get in touch with me. Now I offer lots of workshops but it's mainly to professionals. So that's I don't do it for parents yet. 

Laura: Let me know if you ever want to break into that scene. It's lots of fun. Parents are just the best. Oh, my God. I love getting to work with parents. They're just, I love them so much. 

Annette: And you know what I do want to emphasize that, that the whole intent of the books because I teach professionals a lot. And as I was been doing that so much, I thought, you know, I really want to also bring this to people and parents. So I really tried to make these books easy to read, practical, understandable. So that's been the whole intent is because these are self help books. 

Laura: Well, we really appreciate that. It's one of the ways that we can broaden access, you know, all parents deserve access to the support, they need to kind of meet their goals and their hopes for their kids and for their families. So thank you so much for that and for coming on this show and participating in that.

Annette: My pleasure, Laura. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate that.

Laura: Take good care.

Annette: You too.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!