Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Dr. Laura Froyen, and on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to be talking about all things dysregulation. So we are going to dig into what self-regulation is, what it's not, how to help a child go from being dysregulated to being self-regulated, through peace and calm and connection and love. And understanding what's going on for the kid in their bodies at the moment. So, to help us with this conversation, I have a wonderful guest for us. Her name is Polina. I'm so sorry. I'm struggling. I can do it. Okay. Polina Polina. I just want to put the R there. Okay. Her name is Polina Shkadron, and she is a talented speech-language pathologist who specializes in working with family communication with families who have autism, ADHD, and other language and literacy difficulties. She approaches each family dynamic from a holistic perspective, acknowledging challenges, examining the environment, and focusing on promoting self-efficacy in both the parent and the child. So, Polina, welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do, and then we'll dive into all things dysregulation.
Polina: Sure, thank you so much for having me. So I feel like I have a pretty unique stance on language and the brain, and especially the emotional regulation component. Part of it comes from my graduate school studies where I was lucky enough to be mentored. Using the DIR floor time model, which is all rooted in social-emotional connection. And I think that was just really that the beginning of how I got to where I am. And plus just for myself, I've always been an avid reader and integrator of information, so I pull from a variety of resources and figure out how to make those resources and that information work, especially for neurodivergent kids.
Laura: Okay. Can I ask you a quick question around, like, cause I am the queen of having diverse interests and pulling them together and seeing all things as related. But I'm curious if you can articulate for us, how, how it is that a, a speech language pathologist, like how that relates to this regulation, just kind of so we know where we're starting from.
Polina: Well, the basis of language comes from executive functioning, and the basis of executive functioning is regulation. So you can't just teach from a higher level cognitive and linguistic standpoint when the brain and the body are completely deregulated.
Laura: Yeah, and not communicating and that's yeah.
Polina: Exactly, and that's such a big piece. And the other part of language is that it comes from having the intent to communicate. It also comes from having an idea and or a thought in mind and figuring out what kind of specific words do I want to put together so that I could quite literally take that thought and implant it into the mind. Somebody else.
Laura: Yeah. And, and even to get to that point where you're ready to articulate something, you have to have the enough interception, enough insight into what's going on to to even be able to form that there is something you want to communicate. And that's all regulation too, right?
Polina: Exactly, and When it comes to when it comes to communication in the beginning, just because a child isn't communicating with spoken language, it doesn't mean that they're not communicating.
Laura: 100%. Absolutely. Any parent who has had their kids sitting on the floor and reached their arms up to them and made a kind of like sound, we know that kid wants to be picked up, right?
Polina: Exactly, exactly. And that's the biggest reason that for me, it's just a sign that that circle of communication has opened. And for parents, when it comes to regulation, which is a very big topic, the circle. communication is also part of it, this reciprocity, right? The ease and back and forth interaction. It all comes from, from infancy, right? When infants, when infants need to be co-regulated first. I was gonna say we don't just, yes, we're not just born with having the skills to figure out and understand how to regulate ourselves. We, it's something that through like a rhythmic pattern, and it really is what it's all about, having that type of rhythm and having a caregiver respond to you in the moment that you need them to and be able to. Adjust their rhythm to to the infant, and that's really the beginning and the other piece is that throughout our lives, we still sometimes need co-regulators. We still sometimes need that outside person to not tell us that we're going to be okay with language because that's not what we want to hear. We want to be able to feel that rhythm.
Laura: Still feel a sense of okayness of safety. So tell me, tell me, can we talk a little bit about, like, I think sometimes it's helpful to just have a framing of like the definitions of the words, like the operational kind of definition of how we're using them today. So, what is self regulation? What, like, when we, when parents are thinking about, like, my kid isn't, you know, needs to get regulated, what are we what are we talking about there?
Polina: So it's, it's simple and complex at the same time, right? Like what self regulation looks like is the ability to go through a challenge or a struggle, right? And or a stressor, let's say it's a stress and a stressor too. Every nervous system is different. As long as the stressor disrupts homeostasis, right, which is our even keel mode, it's a stressor, right? Whether for some kids, the lights are too bright, it's too hot, it's too cold. I didn't get enough sleep, you know, my sweater is itchy, okay? I don't have one.
Laura: Like I can, like, getting on a roller coaster, you know, can be exciting or going to, you know, we're recording this at Halloween time, you know, going to a haunted house, you know, can be exciting and fun and just relaxing, right?
Polina: Like that's exactly it. And it's so interesting you bring that up because I also tell parents all the time that excitement can also be regulatory because as soon as you pass that threshold, it's almost as if there's no coming back. There is, it's just, it's going to take time to recognize what's happening and really understanding that just because something is fun, right? And gets that get gets identified as, but it's fun, right? They shouldn't be disregulated. Like there is a connection though, because there is only so much excitement and so much. The body can be up regulated, right? That's the other piece. When the nervous system is up regulated, then we need another body, right? A co-regulator comes in and down regulates the nervous system. I was gonna say yes, instead of coming in and like setting up regulating again.
Laura: Yeah, the picture I'm having floating through my mind as you're describing this is the kids who are just bouncing off the walls before bedtime, who like the mom's trying to chase them around putting jammies on. They're just jumping on the bed, like, and that type of energy. And then how the parent needs to come in with the okay and we're coming down now, you know, and we're, we're bringing it down. But that, like, that's what you're describing, right?
Polina: Yes, and it's also about with this is where the the importance of language comes in and we're choosing words really, really carefully because it's not about the adult's viewpoint, it's about understanding this regulation from the viewpoint of the child, whether or not, whether that child is 2 or that child is 12, right? So it's getting into the mind of the neurodivergent child and Letting them know like what you notice, and then depending on their language skills, checking in to see whether or not you're on point, right? So it's more about like I'm noticing that something's going on. I like I'm noticing that the and all my work is through play, right? So I'm noticing that this play idea is getting a little tricky, right? I would say that maybe to a 5 year old to a 12 year old, I would say let's take a moment because what I'm hearing from you is that something that just got really, really, really hard, and we've got to figure out how to handle it. And the reason I say that is because Let's say for a 12 year old, it starts coming out as this is dumb or you know, like, yes, yeah. This is stupid and then it becomes not even this, it becomes an attack on me, right, which isn't personal, and that's another thing that I would want all parents to know, right? It's not personal. Hey, when kids are telling you, you are the worst mom ever, or you're the worst dad ever, they go away, leave me alone. I hate you. That's all this regulation.
In that moment, they don't need you to prove that you love them. They don't need you to prove that you can fix it and make it better. They need to know they what they need is, like you mentioned, to be heard, to go, I get what's going on here. And you got an answer that you didn't like. I'm totally, I'm with you. I understand. It doesn't mean that you're going to change it all of a sudden, right? It's just about, it's the acknowledgement piece also. So part of regaining regulation, it's The first part is accepting that you're gonna be in this moment for a little while, right? So there's like an acceptance piece. So accepting that, okay, we are in this spiral and this is where we're going to be. I don't know how long it's going to take, and it's so interesting because I have parents ask me this also, well, how long do I give them to be regulated for? Right? And, and I say, wow, this isn't. Exactly, they go, this isn't a timer, right? This isn't a timer kind of situation. The timers are meant for the kitchen before things burn, like that you definitely use a timer when you're cooking something. You can't put a timer on how long a deregulated state is going to last because we don't, we don't know how long discomfort is going to last. And the more you practice coming in as a co-regulator and being with your child in that discomfort, the more they beat you as a parent and become comfortable with discomfort. And then you're also shocked, right? So like that's a big piece, right? Becoming comfortable with discomfort.
Laura: Yeah, I just want to pull out a couple of things that, like and that you just said and hold them to the light, for our listeners. So that piece of learning to sit with that discomfort, your own discomfort, your child's discomfort. Oh, that's really hard, especially for so many of us who grow up in homes where our discomfort wasn't tolerated in the family. Our discomfort was told to be put away, go to your room, shut it down. We don't do that. And so that's, that's a really hard practice. That takes time to learn how to do, right? And this other piece of it too, that I was hearing you say that I just wanted to kind of pull out was that in, in not knowing how long that discomfort is going to last, when we do try to put a limit on it, and we push it down, and we try to contain it. It doesn't get out, right? And I like, I don't know if in your experience, but in the moments where my kids for whatever reason have had to kind of hold it together, it just comes out later, bigger. It's just kind of building pressure and then the dam blows, right?
Polina: Exactly, exactly, and then that brings us a little bit toward what may look like self-control, right?
Laura: So for you, I wanna hear your perspective on the difference between self-regulation and self-control.
Polina: So, self-regulation is, again, right, being able to go through discomfort and then bring yourself back to a more regulated state where then you could slowly start to Connect to what actually happened, right? Then you could slowly like bring the nervous system back to figuring out how do I get reasoning on board, right? We know that we can't rationalize with somebody who's irrational, and that's usually sometimes what happens where A child is just regulated and parents will ask why are you crying? Or like, just tell me what's wrong, just tell me what's wrong, right? Like just use your words and tell me what's wrong and that's accessing language is a higher level skill. answering a why question, providing a reason like in that moment, there's no reasoning, there's no rationale. It just, and that's where the acceptance comes in. It's just, this is it for now this is where we are. This is, this is, this is where we are, and I use that phrase often where I go, I get it right now this is where we are. I'm right here with you. This is where we are.
This is what's going on. I get that whatever happened. You weren't expecting it. You know, where it's something like, yeah, the trains crashed together and the whole thing fell apart. That's not where your mind was, it's what happened, and now we've got to figure out what do we do about it. And it doesn't mean that we need to fix it at this moment because that's not where the conversation is going, right? At that moment, what the child is asking is not to fix it, is just to commiserate with me. I commiserate with myself and know that this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me, ever. Yeah, right, that's what they're looking for. And then what you mentioned with kids attempting to hold themselves together throughout the day, on the outside it looks like self control. On the inside it's a complete depletion of resources. Right, like sometimes, if you've heard of the work from Stewart Shanker, the self-reg Institute, he calls, yeah, he calls it pressure cooker quiet, where it's like something is about to burst and It it just it completely takes and takes away from whatever resources the child has, so by the time they get to a place that's really safe, that's where everything combusts.
Laura: I mean, I feel like so many kids are in that pressure cooker quiet situation the entire school day, and then they come home and unload and at their houses. And I like, I know there's so, like, so much out there on like after school restraint collapse or restraint fatigue, like, whatever, however you wanna call it. But is there anything that parents can do in that moment when they, they know that this is what their kids do, they hold it together in environments that are maybe stressful or not, well, you know, super well suited for them, and then they released at home. I mean, obviously there's probably work to be done in advocating for making the environment more inclusive and well more well suited, but I'm talking about like when we get the kid home to, to help them. Are there things that we can do as parents? I want to transition into talking about co-regulation, what that is, but just, just for the parents who are like, oh my gosh, that's my kid. He's perfect at school and then loses it at home.
Polina: Right, so there's, there's a, a segue, right? The best part that I could recommend is. Let's say that you're able to take a walk, right? School is a walkable distance and you're able to walk home, right? Just make that walk is a very regulating walk. And without, without added without the added pressure of how was your day? Tell me more. What did you do, right? Just talk to me, just talk to me. Like I wanna know. That walk can be as quiet as the child needs it to be, okay, and that the movement part, movement is very, very regulated like. The movement that's strategic, right? So let's say that all the stars are aligned and it's a, the weather is great, you're not rushing anywhere. Take a little bit of a longer walk, like make sure that you have that time and that time in silence is connection anyway. You're not asking for anything of your child. You're not asking them to tell you about the best part of their day, the worst part of the day. It's still a connection without the added expectation of, I just want them to tell me everything.
Yeah, and then that transitory walk can lead into An offer right from the parent where they know that the day has been tough. Let's not do homework the first thing like as you walk through the door. Let's like give that space for however the child decompresses. The only thing I would say is then it would be let's say they decompress with an electronic. That's my, that's the only caveat, right? Because then it would be even more challenging to transition from the electronic to something like homework.
Polina: So they could be why is it so challenging to get off the electronic when we're already deregulated and that's our kind of wind down thing.
Polina: Okay so electronics are easy, right? A lot of people refer to refer to activities as preferred or non-preferred. That is not how I think of them. Something that's easy means that it doesn't require a lot of cognitive effort. Electronics just do things for you. They're passive.
Laura: Yeah, and they're stimulating and like getting some good chemicals flowing through the brain, some like, you know, feel good chemicals, yeah.
Polina: Totally, yes. And then all of a sudden you're being asked to move into something that you already know is particularly challenging for you.
Laura: Right, like something like, or bulwark, yeah, or sitting down to a table where you're not sure you're gonna like what's being served for dinner or, you know, all of those things.
Polina: Right, so I know that we can't get away from electronics. It's more about choosing it, the timing wisely, like, figure out when there is going to be a time for an electronic, like, figure out what does that mean for that, you know, that show. To come to an end, right? To go like, yeah, the show, and it's the same thing in play. I talk about play ideas coming to an end, right? It's not, it's not about the activity itself. It's more like, how do we wrap it up? How do we know that this idea of bad guy, good guy is coming to an end? And usually for younger kids, you know, let's say, well, you know, it's coming to an end when I win. I go, great okay. Like today is that kind of day. It sounds like you really, and then the response usually for me is it sounds like you really need this because that's exactly what they're saying. I need a win, right? I need a win today.
Laura: You know, my oldest kid came out of school the other day and it was just blatantly obvious that it had been a hard day. Like it was just, you know, she's 12, the whole world knew it had been a hard day. And she got into the car and she goes, Mom, can we please just go do something fun? This has been a hard day. Can we just go do something fun? And we did, you know, cause she just knew that she needed a little bit of a, of a win. She needed something, you know, she'd worked hard all day and she just needed a little bit of a win. And we did. We went and did something fun, and it was lovely and nice. And then she came home and read, which is her other regulating things. So that, I mean, this is what something too that like, for me, with my kids, figuring out what helps them feel good and regulates them.
For my kids, that screens are not the answer for that because it makes them feel good in the moment and then bad afterwards, and they have to turn it off. And we've had some very like Enlightening moments where they come to realize it themselves, you know, through problem solving and kind of how that makes you feel in your body? How does that make, you know, the rest of the evening go? But having in my back pocket, and I like ideas of what for each of my children as individuals helps them feel more settled, more soothed, coming, you know, coming back into Their bodies back into themselves, is really helpful. I know what those are for my kids, but do you think that there's a way for us to help parents figure that out for their kids?
Polina: There definitely is, and it helps by noticing when a child can engage themselves in whatever it is they're that they're doing and there be silence, right? So for some kids, like really observing for some coloring, yeah, yeah. Yes, so for for some kids it's coloring, for some, for some it's reading because for, you know, for other kids reading is a is is a huge challenge, like what a cognitive task and they wouldn't go, it's not like they're gonna come home and grab a book, and yet for other kids that's what they need. They need to come home at And get a book and flip through it. I've had kids say that drawing maps is something that's regulating for them, and those are the kids who already know, because when you pose a question like I'm wondering what can help you, and it's always that curiosity, that state of wonder, you know, I'm wondering in this moment what can help, and then they start also wondering like what is it that's helpful for me. And for younger kids, it comes with the parent doing the noticing, where it's like, hm, I'm noticing that pushing the strain back and forth is what is completely soothing. Fantastic. Leave the trains out. Or you know that after a tough day, that's something that's going to be soothing. Great.
Laura: Yeah, are there, are there some hallmarks of things that are soothing, like rhythmic, like repetitive? Are there, are there some things that just, you know, just kind of some qualities of, of play or movement that just tend to be soothing to the nervous system?
Polina: Yeah, so it's really interesting because coloring is rhythmic. Drawing is rhythmic, right?
Laura: It's the doodling, okay, so, repetition, what are some like, I feel like there's a couple R's, aren't there?
Polina: Yeah, so, so rhythm and rhythm and repetition, especially repetition and for, for autistic kids, that's safety. That realm of safety is huge for them. And that and that's why they, they find safety in repetition because we already know what to expect. And that's what kids tend to gravitate toward something that has that rhythmic and repetitive quality, right? For some kids, right, it's going back and forth very slowly on a swing.
Laura: That type of rhythm and repetition is also really regulating for them or jumping on a trampoline. I'm thinking about, yeah.
Polina: Yeah, so that one I would say what I've learned from my OT friends is that that depends.
Laura: It depends because it can be regulated and some kids it can be.
Polina: Yes, yes, yes, so you wanna be, you wanna be really, really careful with things that would excite the nervous system.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, and it sounds too like some of the It's about exploring, right? And experimenting and bringing to your child the spirit of, hey, we're all individuals. Let's figure out what it is that works for you, what feels good in your body, what kind of what makes you have more energy, what helps you feel really calm, and like, and just kind of coming from a place of curiosity and exploration and fun. I think it'd probably be good for parents to do this for themselves too, right? Like, do, yes, yes like the adults listening to this right now, do we know what helps us come up and down and all of those things, right?
Polina: Yes, and it's different for adults also. I would say for younger kids, sometimes it's water play, sometimes it's just like the rhythm of either blowing or popping a bubble, right? Nothing that has like a really high exciting sound to it, right? So even. You know, the some of the toys that we have at the office, like take out all the, we take out all the batteries because it's just like not something that we need in the moment or at any point. So activities. Right, so it's not about like the actual thing, and I say that all the time. It's not about the activity, right? And I think it's really helpful for for parents to gain that sense of knowledge where it's not about the thing, it's about what your child is going to connect to, right? For some kids it's playdough because it's that it's that. Push and like they need to feel the impact of it and like rolling the playdough and just pushing it and rolling it again, that's what's helpful. So it's really about finding what kind of rhythmic pattern is going to put the body and the brain more in a regulated state. And for adults, it's really important for us as adults to find that too because it's like the, you know, it's like the oxygen mask scenario.
You have to put it on yourself first before right before helping others and That's where for parents where they also go, well, like I'm at the end of my rope and you know, I just completely yelled at my child today because I don't know why, I don't know what happened. I go, well, how much capacity did you have? Like for you as the adult, and that's what happened, right? And there's always room for repair, right? There's always room to go, I'm gonna take ownership of that, like that was not cool. I lost it and that's on me like that's that's an adult problem. That is not a child problem because children are never responsible for the feelings of an adult. Yeah, I like that's an important piece where saying things like this will make mommy sad or like this will make, you know, Like that angry, a child is not responsible for regulating the emotional states of an adult ever.
Laura: Yes, I love that. I think that's so important for families to know that in those moments where they have made a mistake, and they heard their moms or their dad's voice come out of their mouth, and they do the thing that they said they're never gonna do to their kids. The fact that they're listening to a podcast here, and they know that they need to go back and repair to acknowledge and take responsibility, like that wasn't okay. What I did was wrong. Most of us never got that from our parents, and that, like, that's the difference, you know, when we were, you know, had things happen to us or, you know, approaches taken with us that did not work with us, for us, that did not land well. No one was coming and and coming to us from a place of Acknowledgements, you know, talking about how they needed to take care of themselves. It's not your job to make me like that that wasn't a conversation in my home, you know, at all, right? And that's that makes all the difference because that, you know, we can't be perfect. We can't be imperfect humans, and I think it's important for our kids to see that, to see like, okay, mom does get dysregulated, just like I do. And when she does, and isn't able to use her skills and tools to get herself back in, She makes mistakes, and then she repairs and apologizes and does better next time, you know.
Polina: Exactly. And then that there's that difference of self control is intentional, like in your mind, you are actually having the conversation of, I know I'm going into a situation that is going to be tough for me. I am going to inhibit my impulses as best I can. Like that's that's that's intentional. This regulation is not intentional.
Laura: Right. Oh really, I really love that, that. That I, you know, that kind of holding those two things up at the same time, that going in with the intention to be self-controlled and The idea that this regulation is not intentional, right? Because we know this, we know this about kids that when they are dysregulated, they are, that's not them, that is their instincts, that's their, you know, deeper, more primal programming coming out, they're feeling a threat, they're feeling stressors, they're attempting to feel safe and get themselves to be, you know, reconnected and in whatever way they can. And not, and it's not intentional. I really like that. I feel curious, can we circle back to co-regulation? I feel like it is a word, like it's such a buzzword right now, the past maybe 4 years, it's really taken off. And my, my initial understanding of co-regulation came from two places in my, in my background in training. So, one was from a sleep perspective. I learned with a co-sleeping professor who was a co-sleeping researcher. And he talked a lot about how, when babies co-sleep with parents, their body, like their breathing and their heartbeats and stuff, co-regulate.
They start getting, getting in line, and it can be really helpful for, you know, babies to kind of have a, have a, you know, a well functioning nervous system and respiratory system next to them. Anyway, so that's the one, my one frame for co-regulation, and then co-regulation for me, I'm a marriage and family therapist by training. And so there's a lot out there in the kind of marriage world around co-regulation. But I think that it's not very well understood, like, what that actually looks like in practice with our kids, right? And, and beyond infancy, right? So when our, when we have a, you know, a 4-month-old who's crying and we are coming in and we're holding them, we're rocking them, you know, we're You know, we're murmuring soft things. Like, it's easy to see that that's co-regulation. It's easy to see we are lending them their our nervous system, so that they can bring their body back into a stable state. What does that look like for 2-year-olds, 4-year-olds, 6-year olds, 10-year-olds, you know what I mean?
Polina: Yes, of course. So even I would say for younger kids who, let's say, you know, toddlers and preschoolers that like rocking back and forth with them, it still works.
Laura: I mean, a year old still loves that too, so.
Polina: Right, so because that's rhythm, right? It's still going back to like the foundation of what is the brain need right now. It needs to, it's out of rhythm, it's out of sync. So how do we help it? By it's exactly what you said. So I am lending my regulated nervous system to the disregulated nervous system of somebody else, and it's like the best gift a parent can give, right? Like, here it is. And I don't need anything and because I'm not asking for anything in return, right? Like, here it is. He's a little piece of me. I'm not asking for anything in return, right? And then some, again, this is like very child specific. Some of the kids who I work with really for their own regulation, they like to hide in very dark spaces. So they need to tune out everything else. In their environment, and when you notice that and you notice a deregulated state is coming, right, you, you offer a hiding spot. You go, you know. I think like in your mind like something's about to happen. I know this because I've been down this road before and you make an offer, you go, you know, I think this idea, how about we put it on pause and we figure out what else your body is looking for. Like what else could like something your body is looking for something else. And what you're saying is, now this is what we were doing, that's not as important as your regulated state. It's not about like, let's just push through, right?
Something that maybe we were told as kids, right? Like just push through it. Just, just go and push through it in this, have some grit, you know, right. And this is more, it doesn't mean that we won't come back to the challenge later on. It just means that we're gonna pause it because your regulation is just more valuable at this point and then when we have capacity, yeah. Well we have capacity, right? And then in those moments it's also again child specific sometimes language is helpful, sometimes it's not, right? And the and the language that that's helpful, it's usually around again, going, I understand this is too much, this is too much, we can just we can just be here together. This is something happened and it's too much and then Knowing some of the, you know, kids who I work with who already they're looking for something to throw.
Like I see there, I see them darting across the room, or sometimes they'll say, I want to throw something. And like that now being able to to even tell me that and not do it, like that is also that's huge, that's that's one of the one of the biggest gains and we go. Okay, let's go into the space where you can toss something around, because in my mind I'm going, you're looking at that really heavy wooden block and, you know, like that's just not possible. Let's go, let's go find something, something different, right? It doesn't mean that they are like tearing the room apart. It means that I'm finding a space for them to be, to go, Okay. I'm with you as close as you need me to be and as far away as you need me to be. Okay. In those moments, usually all the lights also go off. Okay, just so that we don't have, you know, extra extra stimuli around. The lights usually go off and then I'll stop talking.
Laura: Okay. I was gonna ask you, there's definitely some kids who like when we're trying to be soothing, will say, no, don't say that, shut up, you know, all of those things too. And that's telling you that communicating like language is not helpful right now, right?
Polina: Yes, exactly. Language is not helpful because, and here's the major reason, right? Because they're attempting to process their own emotional states and they're attempting to process their own thoughts. And now with language, you're asking them to do another job and you're asking them to process something additional, additional words. And usually I have to say, parents. Will sometimes talk to make themselves feel better because they wanna they wanna they wanna feel like they're doing something and they go, well, the thing is silence and your presence is doing something. You don't have to fill it with words.
Laura: I feel like you just called me out. That is one of my biggest struggles as a parent is just biting my tongue, you know, I mean, and my kids teach me that lesson over and over. And it totally is true that oftentimes when I'm feeling compelled to say things, when it's clear they want me quiet. That those words are for myself, you know, sometimes I say them in my head anyway, you know, but absolutely, yeah. Oh, that's one of my biggest struggles as a parent. It's, I'm, it's, you know, we're all a constant work in progress, right?
Polina: Yes, exactly. And then sometimes you'll hear, why aren't you saying anything, right? And I've heard, and I've heard kids say, you know, you should be getting mad at me or why aren't you as mad as I am as mad as I am, and then I still wait and I go, I'm listening Yeah, I'm still, I'm still here. I'm still here. I'm, I'm listening. I'm listening to what it is that you need. And then sometimes they'll say, I'll need to, I just need to get out of here. I want this to be over. And I go, yeah, I hear that too, and then bring that back to the moment for now we're still here for now. For now we're still here. Because then they'll ask like, well. They'll ask my favorite question is about time. They go, Well, how long? In 5 minutes, in 10 minutes? And then I usually go, well, what does 5 minutes mean to you? And then they'll go, nothing. I go, right. Yeah.
Laura: Cause it doesn't. I feel like kids, I feel like maybe under 12 don't really have a firm sense of what 5 minutes feels like in their bodies, you know, as it passes. I was gonna ask you, so what about, I know that there's Parents listening who, when this, these moments of dysregulation happen for their kids, there's hitting, screaming, kicking, flailing, throwing big bodied expressions of this dysregulation. Yeah. And in that moment, all they need to do is to de-escalate and get that kid safe and make sure other kids in the area are safe and that sometimes their own bodies are safe. And for that parent,I know cause I've been in that parent's shoes. All the things we're talking about feel like, Okay, well, that's well and good for other people, but in that moment, when my kid is hitting, kicking, screaming, you know, threatening to run away and they mean it, you know, like just really like big dysregulation, what can we do to de-escalate those moments in a way that feels safe and good as a as a respectful parent, cause I can tell you. You know, past the time kids are 3 or 4 carrying them, kicking and screaming up to their room where there's, which is their safe space, doesn't feel good anymore, you know, and right, as kids get bigger, it's not possible. You know, so what can we do?
Polina: Yes. So I, because I've had this happen with older kids also, and I'll, I'll usually move my body back, right? And that's where You know, I have to be regulated and also partially on high alert because the punch and kick can come from from anywhere. So I'll, I'll move my body. I'll move my body back. They'll come forward and I'll move my body back and I go, okay, like we can, you know, here's our distance, like I'm still, I'm still here. I'm and it's also showing them that I'm still here with you.
Laura: Yeah, you guys can't because you guys can't see Polina right now, because you're listening to a podcast, but I just want to give you a kind of a hint to what her body language is looking like. So she's kind of leaning back with a pleasant but not, activated face, right? And it's very much like a smooth, like a period at the end of a sentence, energy, as opposed to a question mark, like that, like, I'm here versus a like, or like an exclamation mark. It's like it has period energy, you know, to it. I don't like, maybe that wasn't a helpful description, but it was very, it's very much of a, it's not even like a calm, soothing energy. It's very matter of the fact matter of fact. You're coming towards me, I'm backing up. I'm here and, and I'm here, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm back. I'm keeping myself safe. But very matter of fact, which is lovely and I think sometimes for these big, big kids like the big explosive kiddos, having us come in with a super calm, like soothing voice is even more activating for them.
Polina: Yes, yes, because then they'll get aggravated by it.
Laura: Yes, of course, like, and why wouldn't you, cause they can tell it's fake, right?
Polina: Yes, and I've had, I've had kids say that to their parents to go when, when Polina nods and acknowledges what's happening for me, that's different. They go, when you do it, it's like you're lying. And I go, oh, they have called you out because they know, like it's, it's a nonverbal type of communication, right? Like Kids will know whether it's genuine or not. Whether you're really there to help co-regulate them or not.
Laura: It's like that your nod is an understanding nod versus the parents' placating nod. You know, yeah. Whoa, good distinctions, very interesting. So even thinking about like, what is the energy of my nod? You know, is my nod to understand or is my nod to get them to stop? Right? So even like thinking about like where am I coming from, even with my body language. Oh, those are good things to think about as we approach these situations. Okay, keep going. Like, help us deescalate these kiddos.
Polina: Right. And then, and then, and then even, even with older kids, they, they still need an outlet, so they will be looking for something to tear apart and I just have to be quicker to move in front and then sometimes it's also a head shake where I'm telling them like this is my boundary, you know, we can't, we can't pull things out of walls, so I'll stand back and I'll and I'll shake my head and it'll be like.
Laura: Yeah, you guys can't see her head shake again, and it's kind of like no nonsense, like, but compassionate, like, yeah, we can't do that. We can't do that, you know, I, no, I, that's not an option, you know.
Polina: Yes, and because we want to be really careful, kids get hit with nos all the time, all day. And yeah, there's also a very much a supportive no, right? And the supportive no means that I am holding the boundary for you and I got you anyway.
Laura: I get you want to do that and I won't let you. Yeah, without, without telling them that it's just all communicated in a head nod or a head shake, you know, yes, yes, all nonverbals, love it.
Polina: And then they will, like, you'll see the spiral starts slowing down, like you really will. Sometimes, you know, kids in in my office they'll they'll walk, like they'll they'll storm from the the waiting room into one of the treatment rooms, they'll. Storm back, for some who I know that really won't tear the room apart, they'll ask me to leave them alone. And that's because we have an understanding that that's what they need. And I go, okay, you and I have a very clear established trust. Right. And then for others who want to go and slam the door, I go, okay, I do need to be in here with you. I'll just be on the other side of the room. And then they'll go, well, just then just don't look at me. Okay, okay, you got it. You got it, I heard you. Don't look at me, and it will take again, it'll take time and then Sometimes it takes a little bit longer because the child just isn't used to being uncomfortable in that way and I've had parents also say like we usually by this point they go we usually distract them with something else. So, right, they go, well today we're doing something different. Yeah, I mean, I know that by this point I mean usually distract them.
Laura: Yeah, can I have so much compassion for the parents too, like I mean, I like, not even from a place of like Yes, of course, we want it to be over. We don't want to be screamed and yelled at and be scared in our homes, you know, but also, like, from the time our kids were 18 months old at their well child checkups, the pediatrician is asking, like, do you use distraction when they're doing something you're not they're not supposed to do. So we're coached to use distraction from the time these babies are really young to get them to, you know, to do things. And I like, I never use distraction with my kids, cause it just was so inauthentic and it was so just kind of Not aimed towards what I want them. I want them to have good focus, good attention spans, you know. Now we will sometimes mindfully use distraction when they are calm enough to say like, you know, I'm, I'm ready to move on, but I'm feeling stuck and I can't. Can I have something that will help me, you know, but yeah. Oh, and, yeah, so there's, yes, so I'm glad that we talked about distraction. And learning to sit with it, and that's as much a skill for us as it is for them.
Polina: It is, it is, so, and that's where we come back to the acceptance piece, right? And you accept the fact that we're gonna be here for a while. Yeah, I don't know how long that's gonna take, and then you attune, right? Then there's an attunement piece where that's Your goal is to enter a co regulatory space to with your body language and with the openness of your body language, right? The way that you nod, the way that you may shake your head, the way that you like position. You know, position your face, everything is inviting them to like accept your co-regulation as a gift to go, Here's my nervous system. Here it is. I'm giving a small piece of myself to you, and this is me showing you what works. This is me showing you what can be helpful. And it's not about. Completely just stopping in the moment and going, okay, let's do something else because interestingly enough, I've seen that too, and then that becomes like a dissociation where it's so uncomfortable to handle something that's challenging that. Kids will start becoming, you know, you, you see like the aggravation come through and they're knocking down something that they built and then all of a sudden they'll run out of the room and then they go, okay, let's go to the store, and I'm like, hold on, what what just happened.
Laura: Absolutely. I like what you're, the way that you're describing co-regulation. I think that when parents think about, like, okay, so how do I do that with my kid? They think that there is a way that they think that there is a specific way that looks, specific things to do. And you're offering a much more nuanced approach to it, and, like a just having it be more open-ended, more about the child in question. And when you were just talking about being open and Being a space where you can kind of teach the child what to do in those moments. You're not talking about And of teaching thing, take 5 breaths, count to 10. You're not talking about that type of teaching. You're talking about knowing your child, and then occupying a space that allows them to do the things that they are, that are soothing for them, right? So it's not like, take 5 breaths for me. If you know breathing is good for your kid, it's occupying the space of the kind of rhythmic breathing that feels good to them, right? Like, it's so it's not, it's not active teaching. I think that there's a lot out there that wants us to actively teach these kind of self regulation skills to kids, but in this in the moment, Attunement is so much more powerful. And right, exactly. There's a difference between learning a skill outside of the moment and being able to access that skill in the moment.
Polina: Exactly, and that's sometimes that parents ask me that also. I recently had a conversation with a dad and I've seen the daughter for, you know, the past 5 years, and we've grown together and there are always questions about, well, let's say she can't regulate herself now, then does that mean that there's a regression? And I'm saying, well, it sounds like a a recalibration of a sort. It sounds like something else is going on in the environment and what she's telling you is that this is too much, like this is too much. The expectations, maybe the expectations, yes, they're higher, and yet they're too high for what I can figure out. So we always want to come back to. A co-regulatory space to go, it looks like this is what you need. Let me, let me provide it for you instead of saying, let me teach you to take a breath because those are not teachable moments.
You're not teaching in those moments. Right, it's a, it's a feel like you're you're providing that a different kind of energy and it's really like that really is science based because like we give off a certain energy and people take that from us and when we are uncertain, and I've said this to parents I go, I know it's challenging and I've just, I've practiced it every day for 15 years, and that's the reason that I could get into the, into the head of your child. I could get into their brain and I know like in in moments exactly what they're looking for, right? So now for you, it's like a relearning to go, how do I open up more trust here? How do I show my child that I'm also like. Worthy of their trust that they can lose it with me and I'm not gonna hold it against them. There's not going to be a punishment that follows to go, well, you know, you lost it, so now you can't have something.
Laura: Gosh, yeah. Oh, I mean, I think probably lots of parents are wondering how do I rebuild that trust with my kiddos, you know, how, like, if that trust has been lost, and is it just kind of showing up, just kind of keep, keep, keep going?
Polina: It is and it's also staying true to your word. And even when I have new, you know, new kids come in, new clients come in, I go, I understand that right now I'm a new person. You have no idea who I am and you do not trust me. And I go, I'm gonna earn that. I'm gonna show you that I can be worthy of your trust, and how? And I go, well, you're gonna learn that when I let you know that something is going to happen here, it will happen. So what that looks like is, let's say we're out of time for a session and there's something that You know, there's a new play idea that they want to start. I go, you know. I'm gonna hold on to that play idea for you, and they're like, what does that mean? They said, well, when you come back. I am going to make myself a note and sometimes like they see me, they see me write it and I know that this is what we're going to start with. This is your idea. I wanna make sure that you know that it will be here. It will be here, right?
So again, here comes this like soft supportive boundary, me saying we can't do this right now. And we will be able to without saying we can't do this right now, right? So I'm showing them that the next time they come that trust will be there and I've had young kids say I don't know whether or not I can trust you and I go, you're right. And so this parents have this shocked look on their face and don't say that to an adult and I always go, you are so right. You're so right. You have no idea if you can trust me. I'm gonna just, I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna show you that you can, and that you could rely on me, and that's how you start to build it up. It's with rapport.
Laura: Yeah. And I think it can be painful to think that maybe we've lost that with our kiddos, and, and that's okay, right? Like we can hold ourselves really gently in the moment, you know, and realize that and work towards rebuilding those things with our kids.
Polina: Exactly, because it's, it really is about, like, progress, right? Just like we talk about behaviors aren't linear because they can't be. And then I come in and say, well, neither is progress. Like progress isn't progress isn't just defined in how high of a peak you climb, right? It's defined by you fall, and then how do you manage to slowly Find your way back up. That's also, that's also progress to go, wow, like that was rough. That was, that was quite a fall. I tumbled. Okay. Now sometimes I've got to start from scratch. Okay. What does that look like? What does starting from scratch look like? How do I slowly start to rebuild? And then while you're doing that, one of the most important things is to teach kids advocacy. to teach them that like their no has value, like they are their their no is really really important.
We also want to decipher what that no is. So sometimes the no is I don't have enough in me right now. Sometimes the no is I'm not sure what you're asking me because you're using too much language. Sometimes the no is I don't know what you expect from me or like what the future holds, right? All of that is in one word. No, I'm not doing it. And then and then parents want to start going, well, like you can't just say no. Oh yes yes you are, and then as soon as you come in with, you can't just say no, you're chipping away at their autonomy, that you're chipping away at like their their their their strong need for a no because how else are they going to stand stand their ground, right? So it's like, it's so interesting where when kids are younger, we tell them that they can't say no and then when they're older, we tell them what you should say no, we want them to say no.
Laura: That's one thing that I feel like I'm getting right. My kids have always been allowed to say no to me. What do you say when your kid says no? And they say, no, I'm not doing that. No. So, no, right?
Polina: So let's say, let's let's, right, so the first thing I would say is let's not go into, let's just, let me just give them different options and choices because choice is actually really overwhelming. Okay, so. It when you're when you're making a choice, you're actually asking for a lot of cognitive effort. You're asking a child to envision themselves in the future doing choice A, and then envision themselves in the future doing choice B, and then weighing like the risk and benefit options and then going, hmm, which one, right, so. And, and, and that's, and then when you give too many choices, it becomes even more overwhelming. Well, how about this? and how about that? And how about we do something else and then with, and this is also just in our lives, right? Have you noticed when you have too many options, that's like choice paralysis where you go, well now I don't even know. I don't even know how to make a decision. So in those moments where your child responds with a really strong no, my first question is curiosity and I go, I'm just wondering, I hear your no, I hear it. I'm just wondering where it's coming from. Okay, let me, let me know, yeah, because what I'm saying is, let me know more about it. Let me know more about it. I'm just wondering where that's coming from, and sometimes they won't be able to answer, so you go, Okay, it's my job to figure out what the no is to.
Like, what part of this idea that I gave you being, hey, maybe it is a no, right? What part of it is a no? Because in my mind I know that it's not, it's not sometimes they'll go, well, it's everything. It's the whole thing, the whole thing, it's not, right? The whole thing is a no. You go, Okay, so that's a lot of nos. So for me it sounds like the no and then I'll slowly start breaking it down. The no is to, let's say it's homework, right for parents, you go, Okay, so to me it sounds like the no is sitting. Because that's part of homework. Okay. To me it sounds like the no is holding your pencil. To me it sounds like the no is like. Stopping playing, right? Like something you're you're you're digging a little bit, and then the more you, the more you dig, the more you're actually going to find out what the no is too. And let's say like you hit the gold mine with the first no, you go, the child goes, yeah, like I don't feel like saying you go fantastic, let's stand. Right, I hear you. You've been sitting in school all day. Let's stand up. We could always do your, we could always do your homework taped to the wall. Yeah, great.
Laura: And if there's still a no there, then we just haven't found all the no.
Polina: That that we have it right, that we haven't, I would say that you haven't dug deep enough. You haven't found what all the nos are and then it's figuring out, Okay, what can I take on? And and I always start with myself. I go, so right now we're living in the world of nos. Okay, we can, we can live in this world, we can. I go, all right, let's live in this world of nose, and then I go, how about I'm gonna, I'll take some of those noes for myself, and I'll show you how to turn them into a yes. So what I'm saying is I'll take the brunt of the work. Like I will take the pressure off so that you're left with one thing. And then that will slowly lead you to a yes.
Laura: Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think it's a really big skill, learning to break down a complex task into its parts and figure out what is tripping me up, what's getting in my way, which aspect of this is hard. Kids need help with that. You know, even teenagers, you know, I mean, that's the aspect of executive functioning that lots of kids need support on, right? Yes, yeah, gosh, grownups too sometimes.
Polina: Sometimes grownups too, and, you know, parents ask me also often, well, you know, play is nice, right? But like, what is that teaching them? And I go, let me give you a fantastic example. Let's say your child comes in and I go, the idea is let's make a city, and I go, amazing. Where do we start? And they go, what? I go, where do we start? Right? That's task initiation. I go, what does that look like 20 years from now, you get a project from your boss and your boss goes, go. And then you're and you know exactly where to start, and you could, you can plan it out, you could foresee it because you have the skills to. So it goes back to the thing itself doesn't matter. It's what you do with it. It's how you approach it. So we go, Okay, your idea is to build a city. Where do we start? And oftentimes I'll get kids starting with the details. They go, well, we need birds and trees. I go, amazing, amazing, the, the city. And and I say the city does have birds and trees I goes, the thing is that's like a little part of the city. I'm thinking of something much bigger like I'm thinking of something much, much bigger and then eventually they'll get to all like a road and I go, yeah, like a road like. Lots of roads and then the reason we start with that is because I want to show them how roads are quite literal connections and then we go, oh, so roads take us to different destinations and then eventually we start to decorate the city.
Laura: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that.
Polina: We, we bring in, we bring in all those details because that idea, their ability to manipulate a place in that way to initiate it, to keep it going, to then, right, organize and reorganize it then leads into written language. There's no way that you could just jump into, right? Like there's no way that you could just jump into written language when you've never had practice with play narration. You have to be able to narrate, to narrate a scene and then because writing asks you to do so much, it asks you to narrate, and at the same time it asks you to set the scene.
Laura: Yeah. Oh, I love, you know, play. The, you might not know this, but my listeners do that play is something that I find so fascinating and so just incredibly important for adults and for kids. So inherently valuable. And I love the way that you just really pulled out some very concrete connections for how play develops some of these really important skills. Thank you for that.
Polina: Yes, of course. And then play is going to look different for a toddler, for a preschooler, for a school-age child, you know, then we go into like higher level board games to figure out decision making where, you know, have you considered a different piece? Have you considered a different move? And the. goes, how come? I go, Well, I'm thinking of my moves and I'm actually planning on blocking you. And they go, What? They go, yeah. So then you get into that perspective taking. I go, oh, you know, you're planning to win. Did you know that I was also playing to win? I'm, I'm playing to win too. I'm, I'm invested in this game. I'm enjoying it and I'm also playing to win. So now that you know my strategy, what would it be like for you to figure out two moves at the same time? And now we have like a huge working memory task going, like how do I hold on to all of those strategic moves and at the same time, right, remain regulated.
Laura: Oh my. Oh my gosh, I could play chess if someone had taught me that as a child. That's awesome.
Polina: Yeah, and that's just like it's, you know, chess is a great one, just one of those examples. There's like so many like different versions of of board games that when you look at them from an executive function and a language standpoint. Right? Like I pick them strategically for the type of kids who I have to then show them, well, when you, when you have too much information, when there's extra information, meaning extra pieces, extra cards, what do you do with it? And then they usually go, I don't know, like, and parents and then parents often ask, well, how does that relate to homework and they say, well, when you're reading something, there is going to be extra information. So what do you do with it? And then I had a parent, I had a parent ask their child, well, when you've read it, have you figured out extra information? And then, you know, the kid went, no, and I said, so not yet because she hasn't thought about it in this way. So now, now you're going to, now you're going to think about information in a different way, and it's all because we played it out.
Laura: Yeah, oh gosh. Okay, so I like, I love this idea of building these skills through play. I'm kind of feeling very curious about what some of your favorite games are for this. Oh, and for, you know, that you like to pull out. I, I'm sure my listeners are very eager to know if you have some favorite games.
Polina: Sure, so it's like age depending on, of course, age and skill set, let's say, let's say we're talking a little bit like elementary schools and and older, there are junior versions of adult games, so there's a junior version of Ticket to Ride. Like Ticket to ride is a is a popular game and there's a junior version of it and there's so much manipulation and planning and problem solving involved. There's also a junior version of Catan. I don't know if you were. Catan is a great like junior version and it has like ships and pirates and it you could be, it could be a multiplayer game, so there's other pieces of information to hold on to. The other thing I like to do is I always preview the games and then I, when I present them to the child and I go, let's say I just opened up the rules and showed you the entire page, and then you see the kids' eyes wide and they go, that's a lot. And I go, yeah, it's a lot of information. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna give you one piece at a time, and by the end of it, you'll be an expert. Right, so it's also showing the parent, like
Laura: Let's break down the information and give them to him. It is not overwhelming for sure.
Polina: Yes. And then, you know, like Tetris is also a great one. I have, there's a board game. There's a there's an actualtris. Yes, there is, there is, yeah. It's a, it's a clear like panel and you drop the pieces in. So that's a, yes, that, that's a, that's an excellent one for, for older kids. There's also a really great one called Blokus. So it's spelled yeah, B L O K U S and that can be with. That that's it's a lot of the skills that we've been, we've been talking about like all all in one, and I've had like adults also really enjoy it and they get, and this is where you say that play is so beneficial for adults too because not only Do they could finally connect to their inner child? They're actually enjoying time with their child, and that builds connection and that builds regulation and then they could talk through their own problem solving of, oh man, I shouldn't have put that piece down right, you know what?
The the pieces down. I'm gonna know for for next time. So those are some of like really great ones and then, you know, we could get into board game like board games of that are word games, where it's like different takes because, you know, Scrabble is one of the best known ones and there's different takes on on that. There's One called Upwards where like you stack and there's a there's a literacy component to it. There's one that's called shenanograms. It's kind of like shenanigans where and that one's that one's really tricky because you could steal words and for kids who can become, I know, right? Can you imagine? And then I let them know I go, Okay, so just so you know, you can steal a word for me and I'm also playing to win, so I could possibly steal it back from you, like, just so that you're aware.
Laura: Can I ask you a question and I'm kind of tying this back to this regulation. Yes, there are so many kids who get so dysregulated in the midst of competitiveness. Do you have feelings about altering games, to be more collaborative until kids have built kind of tolerance for losing or not coming out on top? Like, what, how do you feel about those things?
Polina: So I usually start with something that's simpler, and then I can tell by just how the child is, whether or not they that day they need a win, or whether or not they can handle a loss, and then sometimes we'll just pause the game. We'll go, you know, I feel like. We can pause it here. Let's take a picture of it, and we could always restart the next time, right, so then you want, you want to build up their capacity because playing a game takes a lot out of you. It's you have, it does. There's so much to keep track of, so sometimes it's important to go, I feel like, let's pause here, like what would it be like? I'm good. I go, I'm good with pausing, what would it be like for you? What would it be like for you to, yeah, an invitation to pause, and that way we can, we can always restart again. So again, going back to what we mentioned before, it's not an out, it's more, I noticed that this is challenging. Your regulation is more important than like the completion of this game. We're gonna come back to it though, like, and there's that trust piece. They trust me enough to know that the challenge is coming back. And it might come back, right, it might come back in a little bit of a different form. It's still coming back. Yeah, and even for older kids they'll go. Like this, we're doing this and I go, oh, I do remember that the last time we made this, we made an attempt, some of the letters went flying in the air. I go, you know, I have a feeling that we can take it on again.
I feel like we've got this. We can totally take this on again like we because it's us together and it's the phrasing, right? It comes back to the language of I have a feeling you can handle it. I have a feeling you could take it on. You're right, this is a similar challenge and yeah, there was a struggle before. Let's see what happens now. Let's see what happens today. And then I got into some really interesting responses or reactions back when the challenge or the game was completed and one of the kids said to me, well, now you have proof that I can do it. NowI have proof that you can do it, and it's so funny because it's like, well, in their minds I'm gonna hold it against them like, well now you know that I can, so you're gonna expect more from me. And I go, yeah, sometimes, sometimes I am going to have a higher expectation because now I do have proof. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna have the same expectation to the same level every single time. It's just on the days that I can tell that you can handle it. I'm gonna bring that expectation up.
Laura: Yeah. Oh, I love, I love this conversation so much, Polina. I feel like we could keep talking about this forever. Oh my gosh, I, especially love where we ended up though, talking about teaching executive functioning and Like self regulation through game playing. I'm really glad we ended up there. Polina, I'm sure that listeners, especially the listeners who live in your neck of the woods are very curious about how they connect with you, how they can learn from you. Will you tell us where they can find you?
Polina: Yes, absolutely. So on social media, I'm on Instagram and Facebook. It's @playtolearnconsulting on, on both platforms, and then my website is playtolearnconsulting.com.
Laura: Okay. And do you practice worldwide or just in person in New York?
Polina: So I practice in person in New York. I'm also actually licensed in the state of Connecticut and I Another part of my practice is nutrition education and coaching, and that's, you know, across that that's really anywhere because it's, that's just the beauty of coaching. And then I presented internationally. I'm going to an 80, I'm presenting in California soon. So. That always goes up on my website where professionals can also find me.
Laura: Okay, cool. I mean, gosh, Polina, this was a really amazing conversation. Thank you so much for sharing so much. I feel like I took a lot of your time, but I just kept feeling curious. So thank you for, for going with me on that.
Polina: Of course.
Laura: Absolutely.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!
