Episode 211: How to Practice Digital Minimalism with Grace and Compassion with Jennie Crooks
/Welcome to another episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast! In this episode, we’re diving into the world of digital minimalism. I’m joined by Jennie Crooks, a licensed clinical social worker specializing in anxiety and OCD and the founder of the West Coast Anxiety Clinic, to explore the benefits of decluttering our physical spaces and digital lives.
Here’s a summary of what we discussed:
Anxiety's connection to smartphone use for avoidance and comfort
Impact of phone distractions on anxiety
Navigating autopilot behaviors and device distraction
A 30-day challenge to shift from autopilot to mindful awareness
Exploring beliefs and challenges related to phone dependency and social media use
Balancing teaching, sharing, and setting boundaries with social media
Getting caught in autopilot habits
To connect with Jennie, visit her website westcoastanxiety.com and follow her on Instagram @becomingjennie.
Resources:
Before the challenge, take the Quizlet to assess phone dependency or addiction and test your beliefs.
Remember, practicing digital minimalism with grace and compassion means taking intentional steps to create space for what truly matters, so you can be more present for your family.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen, and on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we're going to be talking about decluttering and finding a place of minimalism, not just in our home environments, but actually in our digital lives and technology. To help me with this conversation, I have Jennie Crooks. She is the founder of the West Coast Anxiety Clinic and has just written a beautiful book called Look Up The 30 Day Path to Digital Minimalism and Real Life Maximalism. I feel super intrigued and curious about this topic. So I'm so excited to dive in. Jennifer, Jennie, why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do, and then we'll dive in.
Jennie: Yeah, you bet. I, Jennie, Jennifer, if you're angry at me or you're my mother and you really want my attention, that is it, that still evokes very strong emotions, and I will, I will snap into shape. So I am, by trade, a licensed clinical social worker. I specialize in the treatment of anxiety and OCD and, I'm, I'm in private practice. I see people in an entirely remote setting, and, And I love what I do. I haven't always been a mental health professional. Before I was a mental health professional, I was in the adult business and I had this like really sort of you know, I think, I think we fall into the trap of thinking that time is linear and you just move forward all the time and so I have a lot of turns and twists and dives and yeah, it has not been a linear path here. And so, fortunately, all of that experience has given me some pretty solid footing for anything that my clients say, like, almost like there's literally, I don't know that anything has sort of shook me to my core, like saddened, but I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a really good framework that having a history as a sex worker has provided as a mental health clinician, but how do we get here? So I Yeah, I work with clients who are really anxious and I find that those of us who run a little bit more anxious also do this really curious thing with our phones. And, and, and so we'll talk more about that, I think.
Laura: Oh yeah, no, just even that makes me feel very curious. So I feel very interested in how an anxiety specialist ended up writing a book about digital minimalism and how you see those things as being related. So even that, like, people with anxiety do this interesting thing with our phones. What do we do?
Jennie: Yeah, so, so, people with anxiety, well, people with clinical, like diagnosable clinical anxiety disorders will often use either avoidance or some sort of safety behavior to make their anxiety go away. So for example, you're socially anxious, you're getting into an elevator, it's packed full of colleagues and you're like, Oh, Jesus. Like what? They are going, you know, what do I do? And instead of looking people in the eye or making small talk, we dive into our phones, right? Or we're sitting in the living room. And our 2.5 year old, I have a 2.5 year old. Our 2.5 year old is screaming, Scooby Doo at the top of her lungs, and that's a lot of sensory input. And then our 6.15 year old is screaming, No, I want to watch Elsa at the top of her lungs. And, and my husband, bless his heart, is in the kitchen trying to get dinner ready. And I'm like, just done and cooked for the day. I'll dive into my phone, right? And so there are these like little avoidance strategies and these little like escape hatches in the beautiful shiny rectangle. And I noticed a lot more with my clients who run a little bit more anxious. It's such an easy out for us.
Laura: It is. It's an easy out. And it just got me thinking about what we do before this? So, I identify as an anxious person. Anxiety has been my lifelong friend, you know, since I was a child, you know, stomach aches, going to the nurse. No one in the 80s knew that that's what was happening, but that definitely is what was happening. But what did I do before my phone? I'm just trying to think about, like, in those circumstances, what did I do? I can't even remember.
Jennie: I love that you remember that there was a time before your phone and that you're curious, you know what I mean, cause we're totally coming into the age of young adults who have never had a time.
Laura: Oh my gosh, that makes me feel so sad.
Jennie: I know, same, right? You're very like deeply concerned, right? And so, yeah, I mean, I remember going places without a phone. I remember wondering if my mom was going to be on time. And not having a way to like check outside of like going to a pay phone and that whole thing. Just sort of tolerating the uncertainty.
Laura: Tolerating sitting with that discomfort a little bit. Like there's just more, more, not even like, like, not more opportunities, but more like it was required because there weren't the easy outs, right?
Jennie: Yes, yes, I think this is a lot.
Laura: I think I doodled a lot in those moments.
Jennie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a doodler. I love that. I, you know, I, at a young age, so parents divorced and I think I, I was probably, I mean, I'm a, I'm a recovering perfectionist. And I still dabble with it, right? I'm not entirely abstinent from my perfectionism, but, you know, anxiety shows up there too, right? And so I think as a kid, I found other ways to control my discomfort. And as a kid, I think some of that was, like I started smoking pot really young and I started smoking cigarettes. Like I found these little vehicles to a quick connection. When I didn't think I could do it on my own.
Laura: Yeah, just a little touchstone of some kind.
Jennie: Yeah, a little springboard.
Laura: And so I guess I guess what I'm kind of hearing too is that now that our phones are available and there is so much distraction and kind of you know, good old neurochemical boosting available right as our, you know, right at our fingertips. What are some of the things like you that make you concerned about that? And like, what are some of the things we should be thinking about like as we pull out our phone for that kind of reprieve or that easing of the anxiety?
Jennie: Yeah, it's a great question. I think that It's helpful to think about it in terms of 14 year old Jennie, who has started smoking pot, right? Like, I'm uncomfortable in a social situation. I know weed not only is a great connector, right? Like, if I have weed, I also have friends. That was just sort of community. Yeah. I have an easy community and The weed itself is, in behavioral terms we call it appetitive, right? Like it is something that is tasty for us to go towards. It's not necessarily like the, the sensations aren't necessarily something that we try to get away from. And so weed, alcohol, cocaine, any of these substances that are enjoyable and like light our brains up. Those are things that we're going to want more and more and more of, right? And so the phone is built the same way, right? Where it lights us up in the same way. But unlike my dime bag of weed that I had to like scrimp to find $10 for, right? It is bottomless. Never forever. It never ends. It never ends.
Laura: And it quickly stops feeling good too, right? So the research I've read on this topic, look, it, there's, there's research that like video games and a little bit of social media for 15 to 30 minutes a day is actually positive for mental health. But it quickly diminishes, like the like the returns diminish very fast after 30 minutes. And I don't know, you, you know, I don't know about you, but for me, if those things are on my phone, they're attractive, right? They're appetitive. I like that word. I go towards them and all of a sudden it's an hour later and I feel terrible. I don't feel good, you know, when you go towards it looking to feel good. Is that how, like, I get, help me understand that a little bit better.
Jennie: Think about autopilot, right? Like in, in our car, we have to actually make the choice to go onto autopilot. Brains are very different. We just go on autopilot. We make these little cognitive slides into autopilot. You can do it while you're driving to work, right? If, if you're still driving to work, you get in the car and at some point you just end up at work, right? And your mind can be someplace totally different. And then 30 minutes go by and holy crap, I'm so glad I didn't hit anybody. How did I get here? Why did I get here? It's, it's, it's very much the same with the phones. And it, it's that sort of like recognition of autopilot that actually inspired me to write the book. So All of my clients, I'll put on some sort of digital nutrition plan, right? Like what's the stuff in there that you really get value from that is meaningful, right? Are you learning a language? Are you, like, there is a support forum on there that you plug in with regularly and you have no other access to that type of support other than in this one very specific place on your phone, right? And in what ways is it adding value and and nourishing you, and in what ways is it depleting you? So we look at that and we go on this nutritional diet.
Laura: I really love that perspective.
Jennie: It's, it's so helpful, right? Because there is stuff that's really lovely in our phones and and stuff that does make our life a lot better. I was having a A Super Bowl party. And, my oldest daughter, Elsie at the time, was just learning how to walk. So she was sort of like shuffling along the coffee table. And I had one of these errant thoughts about, Snooki from the Jersey Shore, because obviously, like Bren my mind, I've named her Brenda, she wanders, she pulls up old files and she's like, we should think about Snooki now, like, let's, what is she doing? You know, what is her net worth? And it's like,okay, like yeah, let's let's research that endlessly. So It was one of those things where I attended to this errant thought, and then down the autopilot hole, I went. And just like you were saying, like you get in to play and you look up an hour later or an hour and a half later, and you're like, Whoa, like I feel like crap. Like what happened? That same thing happened, but I came out of it because people started clapping and I looked up and I had missed Elsie's first step. And Jennie. I know, so it's so sad, right? And my younger daughter Sadie, I didn't miss her first step, but I also Like I have filed it away in the file cabinet of mind and that memory has yellowed, and I, don't quite remember it, but I don't remember missing it, right?
Laura: It's, it's not, it's a negative event.
Jennie: Yeah, totally. And so I had, I had this like aha moment. I was like, oh this isn't this isn't just an anxious people thing, this is just a people with brains thing.
Laura: Like the human brain thing. But they're not equipped to deal with the technology that we have.
Jennie: Totally, totally. And in the same way that we're not equipped to deal with the amount of information that comes at us, like these brains are not designed for a 24 hour news cycle, you know, like not even close, not even close.
Laura: We're not like these brains are, you know. 1000 or so years behind what's happening, like technologically right now.
Jennie: Yeah. Totally, totally. Like, it doesn't matter that I know our budget for the month and that I know our net worth and that like financially we're stable. I still see the price of blueberries go up and I'm like, oh my God, is this going to bankrupt us? It's like, brain. Like, like that that's intense scarcity response. We're going to be okay, right? Like there's an acceptably high probability that we can still purchase blueberries and we even know where they are. Like we don't have to forage for them, right? And so yeah, it's that autopilot thing, right? Like so many of us go on autopilot. And then we just lose precious moments of our lives down in the rectangle.
Laura: Okay. So that, oh gosh, that autopilot thing. So how I can, I feel like sometimes I can just hear my listeners, you know, like what they're thinking as they're listening to this conversation. And I, I think they're resonating with this idea of autopilot with this feeling of being sucked in and coming up for air and not like, even knowing the time, like what time passed, what was happening, or even just getting the feedback from our kids. Mom, you're always looking at your phone. You know, why is your phone more important than me? You know, just some of those comments, that I've had from my kids. I love, you know, I don't know that I would ever have been able to say something like that to my parents cause I wasn't allowed to give feedback to my parents in the way that my kids are encouraged to give feedback to me in this, you know, more respectful parenting world. But, that feedback is hard to hear. So what can we do to get off autopilot? Cause this is the world that we're in. We have these, these devices. Whether we want them or not, they're there, it's very difficult to even get a phone that doesn't have. This like amount of, you know, contact and information and stuff in it. So how do we get out of that autopilot?
Jennie: It takes attentional training, right? Like, and, and it's just a very fancy way of saying you have to choose where you pay attention and Autopilot is always gonna suck us back in, right? And so I think, I think maybe the first step isn't necessarily a solution for getting out of that as much as it is a stance you can take toward. The fact that this happens, right? And that and that stance is one of just like loving kindness and self compassion, right? Like, you're not doing anything wrong, right? Like. This is a human problem. This is a brain problem. This is the phone is working exactly as it's designed to, and your brain is working exactly as it was evolved to. And and so, yeah, like really letting yourself settle into that place of like, okay, like Oh, ouch, like this, like when I get that piece of feedback, oh yeah, that really hurts, like this is something. That is, that is really hard to change.
Laura: Yeah. Oh, I love that reminder to be self-compassionate so much and understanding too that, you know, the brains, our human brain was designed to be efficient and to find efficiency wherever it can. And so like that's what autopilot is, right? So having some compassion for ourselves, for our human brain, and being able to sit comes from that place as opposed to a place of guilt and shame and self judgment. I think it's always better, like change always works better when we're coming from a place of compassion and grace. So thank you for that invitation so much.
Jennie: And I think something, you wrote in the pitch for your, your show actually speaks to that as well, this idea of balancing, right? Coming off autopilot is, it's more of like a returning, like a returning to the present moment. And there is that present particle ING at the end where we're doing it over and over and over again. And the more you return to right now and right here. The more skilled you get at returning to right now and right here, minds wander, right? Phones suck us in. This, this is how it is. And so opening yourself to the idea that this isn't a one time like switch where like we come off autopilot, I'm set, I'm good to go. I'm always here. I'm always like. Making these like really active choices for how to be with my phone. It's like, this is, this is an ongoing practice that is, is like laced with kindness and and nonjudgment and the ongoingness is a practice, right?
And so there, there's a so in in Japan, and one of the one of the strategies that I, so the whole first week of the challenge, the 30 day challenge, right? The whole first week is about coming off of autopilot. And every day I offer a little micro intervention for you to play with. You don't have to get it perfect. You don't have to do it right, right? It's just an offering to play with, right? Every day I offer something and and one of my one of my favorite One of my favorite offerings is, I call it, it's called Train conductor, and it's it's point and call is what it is, and it's this, if you're familiar with the Japanese train systems, this is probably gonna be like, oh yeah, I know what this is. So in Japan, the, the train conductors will narrate everything that they're doing as they're doing it. It's this mindfulness practice that allows their mind to stay engaged actively with the things that they're doing as they're doing it.
Laura: Yeah, so they're not going on autopilot. Especially as they're driving really like high speed trains.
Jennie: Jam-packed with people, right? Like these are like there's precious cargo in there. And what we see is that it significantly reduces the amount of injuries and accidents that the Japanese train system has. They're they're extraordinarily safe, right? And so I offer this as a fun practice to play with for a day. And maybe, maybe we do it even right now. And so your listeners can get a sense of what it'll feel like. So, for the next just like, I don't know, minute or so, I want you to pick up your phone and narrate an active, present tense, what you're doing with your phone as you're doing it.
Laura: Okay. I love this. Okay, so listener, please pause and do this for a minute, right? Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, in my mind's I am imagining myself doing this, and I feel like so often I pick up my phone to do one specific thing. To add something to my grocery list that I share with my husband to make sure that this birthday party is on the, you know, on the calendar, you know, to make sure that I've got an email that I needed to, you know, to get. And then After that thing is complete, sometimes even before it's complete, cause like, you know, Amazon happens to be open and then oh no, I'm doing something else. I, that's when you get lost, right? So if you're narrating, like, I'm picking up my phone to put peppers on the grocery list, like, okay, now peppers are on the grocery list, like that is the moment where you would be able to just put it back down as opposed to kind of autopilot getting sucked in, right?
Jennie: Yeah, yeah, and, and what we see is that as you continue narrating, we do make these cognitive errors and slide into Amazon or to like my Target card, right? But what happens is that you hear yourself doing it, and there's a certain degree of hearing yourself that it's kind of aversive. Like it's, I don't, I don't know. Like, I'm kind of like, oh God, like I'm in the elevator. I'm picking up my phone, I'm scrolling. I'm looking at my daughter on the screen. I'm opening it. Now people are looking at me and I'm looking at my phone. I don't actually need to look at my phone right now. I'm just going to put my phone away. Right? And so it ends up being this really brilliant check-in where it both helps you stay on task, and it creates a little bit of awareness around, you actually need to do the thing that you have been sucked into doing next, right?
Laura: Yeah. Oh, I really like that exercise. I feel like that would be super helpful. So this, that's one of the invitations that you have in your 30 day challenge. And you said that was like the 1st 10 days are really geared towards getting you off, autopilot. What are, are there, or is everything broken up into kind of 10 day chunks? Like, what's the next step after getting off of autopilot? Or kind of not getting off, but learning to recognize when you are, and moving yourself gently and compassionately back towards present moment awareness.
Jennie: Yeah, no, great, great sum of that first week. So it's the 1st 7 days and then the 2nd 7 days, it is focused on identifying the beliefs that you have about your phone that keep you stuck to your phone.
Laura: Yeah, interesting. What are some of the beliefs you hear from your clients or folks, you know, that you talk to about this, about their phones?
Jennie: I feel very curious. I have to have stuck. I have to have my phone. I have to have my phone. I have to respond. Just a period. Like I have to respond or I have to respond within a certain amount of time, or if I don't respond, they're gonna be mad at me. There's a lot of fear on what happens if you don't do something, right? And that's something that we sort of like go into, I see that a lot with my socially anxious people. I see that a lot with my really high performing people who may not actually be on call, but they feel like they are if they are, yes, behave as if they are for sure. Yep. Yeah, which reinforces the idea that they are. But we don't actually know that they are, right? So there's, actually, before we start the challenge, there is something that I made, I called it a quizlet. It's a cute little quiz to help you determine if you are on call, if you are dependent on your phone, or if maybe what you're actually dealing with is a little bit of addiction. And knowing that before you go into the challenge can be really helpful, because you'll, you'll get to test some of the beliefs that you have about your phone, right?
Like, do I actually need to respond immediately? Will somebody actually be mad at me if I don't, if I just leave them on red? If I don't have my read receipt on, will that be okay? Is this the only place where I can connect socially with my peers? Is this the only way is texting actually the more comfortable thing to do? Is it the more rewarding thing to do, right? There's, there's all of these little beliefs, and I, I think what can be helpful in that second week is, any time that we're using the word should or must or ought to or have to, that's an indicator that we've set up some sort of rule in our brain. And then and then we're following it, right? And so it helps you identify like, what are your rules?
Laura: What are the rules? What are the kind of the beliefs that we have. And then I'm guessing at some point where we start challenging them. And so, that can sound like, you know, do I, you know, am I actually on call, you know, those questions you were just asking. What about some of the others, like, I don't, I'm just trying to, I'm trying to even think about some of my problematic beliefs, cause I, I definitely get stuck in, stuck in. To my phone, so my listeners all know that I've been on a pretty significant hiatus from posting on social media. But every once in a while, a social media app will make it back onto my phone. For example, like right now, I'm trying to sell a TV on Facebook Marketplace. And so Facebook is on my phone right now so that I can do that. And now it's, so now it's on my phone. I, it normally is not. But dang, now that it's on my phone, it's open a lot more than just checking my marketplace messages and post. Do you know what I mean? So like I, I think I have pretty good, like good beliefs about that. So, about it. And yeah, I'm still being pulled in. I still, you know, cause like, there's fun content on there. There's like, I like watching people who go to thrift stores and find Interesting ways to decorate with what they find, you know, like, there's like interesting stuff on there. And I know I no longer have the excuse that I'm doing it for work because I've been off social media for work for 2 years now yeah.
Jennie: So congratulations.
Laura: Yes, yeah. No, I love not being on social media. I, there's parts of it that I really miss. I'm a teacher by nature. You're a lovely teacher too, Jennie. I mean, so many, so many of us who are working with clients are teachers at heart. So we just teach in a different way in a different setting. So when, when it comes to social media, like I love teaching, and getting to teach lots of people. But I started noticing myself feeling a little bit more attached to the views, to staying on trends, trying to craft lessons to teach that were matching a trend as opposed to like what was feeling, like what I was feeling called to, and it just was not coming from a healthy place anymore. And so, I just had to leave those things behind.
Maybe I'll get back into it, but I'm still Like, even just the thought of trying to like make An Instagram reel right now is not attractive to me at all. I want to have more nuanced conversations too, like the conversation that you and I are having right now, we could, you can't have that in a 15 2nd video, you know? Anyway, I totally like got off topic. So, but still, like, still, I, so I, I know social media isn't good for me. I know that I do much better when it's not on my phone at all, but sometimes they make their way back onto my phone. For various reasons, you know, like, there's this, you know, there's like a craft that I wanna do, that the video is on, on Instagram that I wanna do with my kids, so we need to pull it up and, you know, and do it. So, anyway, some sometimes, like, what do I do? Like, what's going on there for me in your.
Jennie: Yeah, I love this question. I love, I love this question, right? Because it's, it's this beautiful combination of some quiet rule and belief that's sort of set in place, right? Like, one that I heard is that, it's entertaining, right? And that's, that's a belief, right? Like I'm entertained. By the stuff in here, right? But if we could sort of zoom out to what entertainment actually means for you, is this the kind of entertainment that nourishes you, or that you need more of to feel satisfied?
Laura: I'm trying to even think about like in terms of entertainment, like, I don't even know that I know. What is nourishing entertainment? Okay, so going to live, seeing live music is very nourishing for me. So experiencing live music, oh, that is wonderful entertainment for me. My husband likes to go to casinos and gamble, like, not a lot, like it's not a problem, but that's like entertainment for him, you know, he likes that. Like that's awful to me. I hate it. Like it's so exciting provoking. Like that's the last thing I wanna do. I think I really like to go through, go to thrift stores and antique stores, even if I'm not buying anything, I like to look at the things. I like to imagine the life that they've had. I like to think about, like, this is the other day I was at a thrift store and there were like 20 elephants. That means that someone who had an elephant collection is either divesting or has passed away. Like that's a life there, right? So I, I like the, so for me, like going to a thrift store is very entertaining. Like, not the buying, but the looking, the seeing, the thinking, the, the thinking about the interconnectedness, you know, all of those things, very pleasurable and enjoyable for me. And so I think when I am You know, drawn to those videos like on Facebook of someone else doing that. It's almost like a little like it gives a little hint of that, but it's not nearly as satisfying as the real thing, right?
Jennie: Yeah, yep, yep. But it's enough to make you not seek it out in life. Yeah. Right. It, it makes you less, it makes that pull to go to the thrift store, to go to see live music. It just turns the volume down enough that you can tolerate it. But, but we need that how is that? Yeah, totally. Oh my gosh like such shit after.
Laura: Yes, you're, you're making me realize something like, so yesterday I was, I was watching some of these videos, and I had an hour and a half before I had to go pick up kids and I had just finished meeting with the wonderful people who are in my membership. And, you know, like I was eating lunch, you know, and You know, figuring, you know, figuring out what I was gonna do next. And I was watching these videos, and I was like, oh, I'll just keep watching these things. And I was like, wait a second, I could actually go to a thrift store and actually do the thing that is enjoyable to me. And so I did have that moment of awareness, but I don't know that I would ever have, until you, like you talked to me through it right now, like, acknowledge that this The kind of the stuff that's happening on social media is giving the illusion of meeting like that need for entertainment, that need for pleasure, as opposed to actually meeting it in the real world, where it's much more satisfying. Yeah, I really like that perspective.
Jennie: We need to feel it enough to go toward it, right? Think about hunger, right? If we have access to a cookie jar. And we're hungry. If that's the, the closest thing, chances are we're just going to put our hand in there and have the cookie, and it'll make us not hungry long enough to go back to work or do or do whatever the thing is, right? But, but what this body actually wants is a meal that is a little bit more nourishing, right? That that is well rounded, that has some grains, that has some greens, that has some fruit, that has some protein, right? Like, the whole plate, right? But it's, it's that little cookie that keeps us satiated enough. To continue on. There's, there's a theory in, I don't know if it's actually in social worker and economics. It is not liked by many social workers, but I'm, I'm gonna talk about it. I'm a social worker. I'm gonna say something that's uncomfortable. There's a theory in um. About, like welfare, that welfare keeps people satiated enough. It keeps them fed enough to prevent an uprise, right? Whereas if we didn't have welfare, it would be so intolerable that the whole society would revolt and, and we would come up with some sort of new system, right?
Laura: That is actually just and equitable.
Jennie: Yep, exactly, which is not to say that we should get rid of welfare because I think that, I think that there's a better way to run social services and that everyone deserves equal access, right? Like I'm just like, yes, baseline, but, but it's something that keeps people from revolting. Right? In, in the same way that if you keep the price of bread under a certain amount, there won't be riots in the street. But there's a long history that shows that when the price of bread rises over a certain number, people revolt, right? Like it's one of these staple foods. And so it We have unrest, right? And so if, if we don't use our phone to satiate whatever this longing is that's inside of us, whether it's for fun or entertainment or connection. If we don't use that, then then we actually feel the amount of discomfort that's required to go out and find it.
Laura: Oh. Okay, let's say that again. So if we don't use our phone to kind of satiate or tide us over. We actually then have the opportunity to feel the discomfort that would then drive us out to go and get something that's actually nourishing, actually satisfying for us. Yeah, yes, yeah. Oh, I like that a lot. Okay. And so then that sounds like in that moment, there needs to be a little bit of intentional present moment awareness where you're going, you're using it, and you're saying, okay, so I, right now I'm seeking entertainment. Right now, I'm seeking fun, I'm seeking pleasure. Am I gonna get it here, or am I gonna be more fully nourished elsewhere, right?
Jennie: Yeah, yeah,I think what you just did there was really skillful, which is what I heard what I heard you do is you identified your values, right? Like what are, what are the north stars in my sky that guide me? Right? What, what do I want this life to be about? And if, if I turn toward this phone right now, is that really going toward the North Stars? Or is there, is there some other step that I can take that moves me more in that direction? Like what, what size step do I want to take?
Laura: I just had another like, like another just like. A point of awareness. Like I love watching YouTube tutorials. I'm a watercolorist. I love watching YouTube tutorials on paintings or like time lapse paintings. Yeah, I avoid the thing that's actually nourishing, like getting out my paints, setting them up, and doing it. Yeah. Jennie, Jennie. Oh my gosh. Okay, so listener, like you've heard me have a couple of aha moments for myself here, and I just want to invite you to be thinking about this. Okay, so what are the things That I'm doing to just satisfy me enough? You know, I'm hungry for something, and I'm taking this cookie that I know is not going to be nourishing for my body. I know it will only satisfy me for a small amount of time. And I'm doing that instead of setting myself up for doing the thing that maybe seems a little bit harder, maybe takes a little bit more energy, but ultimately will have a more, a bigger payoff in my life. Yeah, woo.
Jennie: Yes, the bar for entry, the bar for entry is reflective on the payoff. Yeah, right? So the, the harder it is for you to engage with it, the more rewarding it's gonna be when you do, right? Whether or not you enjoy it, you're, you're gonna be able to look back and be like, oh man, I did the hard thing. I did a really hard thing. And even though it sucked or was uncomfortable, you will get to know that you too can do hard things.
Laura: Yeah., I love that. Okay. So then, talk to me a little bit about the flip side. So, way back in the beginning of the interview, you started talking, you talked about how with your clients, you help them kind of come up with a nutrition plan when it comes to technology. And that means that there are some things that are nourishing when it comes to technology. What are some of those things that you tend to see, and I'm, I know that it would be very individual. I'm just thinking about even like with my kids. You know, there's like one of my kids is super into animals and likes like. Sorry, like humane society work, you know, like rescuing, and rescue work. She's very into it, but she's not old enough to volunteer in any of these places right now. And the places where she is, there is a waiting list 400 miles long, you know, and so right now she's getting like, it's not nearly as satisfying, but she gets that need to help animals met in a variety of ways, and one of those ways is watching. Some videos with me on, people who do that work, you know? And that's meaningful to her because she can't access perhaps the more meaningful real life stuff right now, just because there's age rules that are perhaps unfair. But I'm thinking about what are some other ways that we can engage. With technology, kind of with our digital lives that are more meaningful. More nourishing.
Jennie: Yeah, and I think, I think again it's back to that like clarified values like there's there's two things I hear you really touching on in this, in this specific example, and I really want to point them out because I think they are so important, especially as parents who have kids who are growing up in this age of tech and of like endless tech, right? So what I hear you're doing is, you know what's important to your daughter, right? Like she really values caring for animals. And you're using this opportunity, this device, as a way to not only help her move toward her values and connect to her values, but as a way to connect together. Like there's this really beautiful thing. You guys are doing it together. She's not locked up in her room just watching endless videos on animals or whatever it is, right? Like it, it is, it is something that you were choosing to do together as this point of connection. My guess is that after you watch a video, you maybe debrief it a little bit and talk about it, talk about what you like, talk about what was interesting, what she learned, right? And and it's this It's this moment where she gets to look back in 10 years, in 15 years, and it's, it's like baking with your kids, right? Like, yeah, I love baking, right? And there's a, a way that I can bake where I just like rush. Through it and get it done, right?
And then I give the kids a cupcakes, or there's a way that I can involve them and and they can look back years from now and know that it was this, it was a total mess, right? Like the kitchen was a disaster, and the food was like questionable, but that was the experience, the connection, the relationship was the point for sure. Exactly. Right? And so I think it can be really helpful if you have kids and you're trying to figure out like, okay, well, like, how do we use this in a way that's nourishing, one, identifying like, what are your values, right? And in the book, every single day. Actually offers up a bunch of different values. Values are freely chosen. When we're kids, our parents tell us what our values are, and then we come of age, and some of us are like, ah, you know, like religion is not that important to me, or they're like, religion is important to me. And and then that becomes a value. So our values are these freely chosen north stars. And so as you're looking at your device, and you're thinking like, well, what is the thing that's actually nourishing here for me? Consider your values, right? If it's moving you closer to your values, and there's no other way to do that, or there's no, I don't wanna say easier, but I'll use something that I've been using my phone for. So I played piano when I was a kid, and I always found it really aversive to practice. I didn't mind practicing. I could do the scales. But I wanted to play music. I wanted to play songs. I wanted to be taught, right?
Laura: Like you want to play something you can sing or you know, something that you'd recognize.
Jennie: Yes. Like actual music, right? Actual music, right? And so, I gave it up when I was a kid. And now as an adult, I'm returning to it, but just in terms of logistics and time, I don't have, I don't have time to go to a piano lesson with someone who's just going to teach me scales again. I just want to learn how to play a song, right? I just want to learn how to play shallow and sing shallow for God's sakes, you know, like, let me just Do this thing. And so I'll put my phone up on the piano, and I found somebody online who teaches me how to do it and I take it slow and I'm learning to play this song and I practice it and My girls sit next to me and they see that this is something that I use it for. And it's not just this mysterious thing that I disappear into when things are hard or when I've had a hard day at work or when the house is too noisy or overwhelming, right? It's also this vehicle for learning, which is one of my one of my values, right? Like, I really value music and I really value learning and it's this, it is a vehicle to help me do that. And so, Yeah, and when we're looking for the things that are nourishing to us, right, a good way to, to tap into like, is this nourishing or is this depleting, is to consider how you feel after you use it, right? If, if you feel drained and like it, even while you're doing it, if it doesn't have a sense of vitality in it, there's a, there's a good chance it's not really nourishing for you. That's stuff that we just want to let go of.
Laura: I feel very curious now to just wonder like, are there times when you still get sucked in, still find yourself on autopilot. Down a rabbit hole, I have lost time.
Jennie: Yeah, I would like to say that I have achieved perfection, and I have even dabbled with the idea of making, some sort of, I don't know, trophy for myself to say that I'm like, I'm good, I'm set, I'm good to go. And I am also inflicted with the human brain who gets sucked into the shiny device, right? You know? I mean, when you were talking earlier about your decision to leave social media, that is something I can identify with so deeply. So, when I left the adult business, I mean. It's like all of the gas is trying to escape my body, all of the gas and the coughing and the noise. When I left the adult business, You know, working in porn is this sort of like. Endless hall of Validation. Like rarely do people tell you things that aren't very flattering, and if they do, it's usually in the context of like being like hot and sexy, dirty talk, right, but like it's this, it is this very sort of like, I don't want to say superficial, but it it's It's not hard to come across validation in that the external validation too, yeah, yep, yep, and, and when I left. It left this gaping hole and Perhaps, intuitively, you know, I started this blog called Becoming Jennie to document the process of leaving, right?
And, and some of it was really just about burning that bridge and, and being sure that I didn't go back. And I, and I had this idea that was, it was so quiet, but it was also so It was surprisingly accurate. I had this idea that if I made myself this three dimensional human who has feelings and thoughts and, you know, has difficulty doing this thing and who has substance use issues, then people wouldn't necessarily want to buy my porn anymore. And so I wanted to make it harder to go back. And it became harder to go back the the more that I did this. But like you shared. That I started looking for the comments and for the likes, and I started losing a lot of, The sense of agency and self-worth that I was developing outside of that space, I started losing it, trying to, trying to get those quick hits.
Laura: Yeah, I 100%. Yeah, I know, I mean, so completely different fields, but academia, so as a professor, academia is entirely dependent on someone else's external. Valuation of your work, whether you get tenure, whether you get promotions, whether you get published, like, it all depends on someone else saying yes, you're worthy, and I, I left academia for for that reason cause I just couldn't. I couldn't tolerate any longer having my sense of self-worth be defined by other people and outside of myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jennie: It's, it's, it's really, really challenging to stay afloat in, in those sorts of environments. I think so many of us are stuck in them too, you know. Yeah, yeah, yes, and And I, when I left, I was also Very cautious about posting on Instagram after that, in large part because I was trying to transition to become a mental health professional, which, you know, is fraught with its own sense of impostor syndrome and, you know, like everything, everything that you're talking about, right? Like the, the challenges of being a human who helps other humans make human changes, like the struggle is real for sure. And so when I decided to publish the book.
Laura: Sorry, Jennie, you froze on my end. Oh you're back. Yes, hi, yeah, so the last thing I heard was when I decided to publish the book.
Jennie: So when I decided to publish the book, I pressed into this place of dissonance where it's like, Okay, the people that I want to read the book are on social media. Yeah, the people that don't need the book are not on social media, you know, like they're. You know, which means I need to go to social media to reach the people I need to reach who would benefit from this book. And how am I going to enter that space in a way that is also protected and insulated and mindful and boundaried and intentional, yeah, for sure. So challenging, right? And challenging. I actually ended up, oh my God, it's, it's so challenging. And, and so one of the strategies was to do podcasts, which is such a great way to connect, such a, like the long form interview is, it's so much more meaningful.
Laura: Yes, 100%.
Jennie: So much more meaningful, totally. And still, there is, I noticed one of my own beliefs that keep me tied to social media is that this is how the world works today. This is how people get a lot of their Information, yeah.
Laura: Yeah. Something that has helped me. Yeah, something that has helped me challenge that belief that like in order to have an online business, you have to be on social media. Like that was definitely a belief that I had for a long time. Has been like over the past two years, my, my income has not been affected by me not being on social media in any way. Yeah. It just hasn't, hasn't like, you know, there's a lot out there on how to make online businesses flourish and be, and that, you know, make more income. That is not something that I'm interested in engaging in. That's not like my motivation for my work. And I think it's hard to do that in an ethical, like a psychologically ethical way. So my business hasn't necessarily grown either. It's just stayed steady and I, at a level that I feel really comfortable with. You know, I love welcoming new folks into my membership. My membership covers around 50 people, and families come in when they're ready for help and they leave when they're, they've got the support that they need, you know? And it's just, it's quite lovely and it hasn't, that has not changed in 2 years. So that like that evidence has been helpful for me and like, oh yeah, I don't think I'm gonna go back. Why would I?
Jennie: Yeah, I love it. That You tested that belief.
Laura: Yes, yeah, I love, I love you sometimes you have to test them, right?
Jennie: To and then you get to see, yeah, like, does this, does this hold up in real life? I, for right now I've, I've resigned myself to resignation is not the word. I, I'm not ready. I'm not willing to test the belief yet, right? And so I have found some other strategies like I hired a media company, so I just send them my content and they deal with it. Okay yeah, occasionally I get on and I respond. Of course there was a troll who was on there who said some things that naturally like. We my core fear, which it's always going to be exposed to your core fears and to get to see you. This is exactly what I was afraid of and am I gonna be okay now what's happening, the thing that I, yeah, so far I haven't, I haven't died yet and nobody's fired me because of the one thing that he said, right? But Yeah, I noticed my own unwillingness to test that belief, which is a curious thing, right? Like a curious thing for me to press into.
Laura: So, I like that I'm approaching that with curiosity. So like when that resistance comes up, so even if our listeners are like, okay, that's great for some people, but I can't do that, you know, even those like just even being curious about like, huh, that's an interesting like that that's interesting that you would have a strong reaction to that idea, you know, like, yeah.
Jennie: Yeah, totally, totally curious, and I don't have to like to press past it or like force myself into it or Or like, be, I mean, all the perfectionist in me is like, let's go, right? Like, but Brenda, thank you so much. We're good. We're just gonna, we're just gonna be curious and say this is where we're at today.
Laura: I think that parents often get the message, especially parents with kids under 5, that these years are fleeting and you've got to do it perfectly, you know, like they, you've got to get it all right and you've got to get all right right now, you know, and so I, I love that message too, that there's okay. This is a lot we have hopefully, with any luck and with lots of, you know, Grace and blessings. Hopefully this is a very long life. Hopefully we've got lots of time to figure this out. Yes, our kids' childhoods are, are short, and we get lots of time with them. It's not like at 18, we magically stop having a relationship with them, you know, and then like all of our parenting is over. It doesn't end. It never ends. We're always their parent, you know, we always have opportunities to learn and grow. And I, I just like there is, I think that there is often a very much a sense of like urgency when it comes to some of this stuff to get it right, especially if we're motivated to get it right for our kids as opposed to getting it right for ourselves, right? And so I think just even that meant like what you just said about like, there's time. We don't have, we don't have to do it all right now. There's time to take it slow. There's time to do it in a way that is compassionate and kind to ourselves. There's times for pushing and there's seasons for not pushing, you know, and knowing where you are in those things. I like that a lot.
Jennie: It's, it's a helpful frame, and I think it's one that I really want to invite people to practice with the 30 day challenge too, right? I think, you know, I know, I know when I do it, I've done it a couple times now, and every time I do it, I'm like, okay, this is the one, Jennie, you're going to do it perfectly. And every time I, I don't. You know, and I wrote the challenge, right? Like I, I wrote it, I made it like, for all intents and purposes, I should be the one, right? Like that's, that's, that's the belief. I should, I should be the one who can do this perfectly, right? It's just, what if you don't, but you continue to do it anyway, right? Like, and I think that's a helpful frame for me. I set the, the 30 day challenge. I, I used to do these yoga challenges. At the beginning of the year, my yoga studio would do a 30 day challenge. And when I first started doing the challenge, the challenge was to do it every day. Do it, do it, go and sweat, stretch your body. Get the stars. You got stars, everybody could see your stars. I could see everybody else's stars. It was this beautiful comparison board that my comparing mind was like, Yes, finally, we are being graded for this. I knew it, right?
Laura: That's like the antithesis of my yoga experience. Like me, I go to yoga because of the intense practice of having to keep my eyes on my own mat and be in my own experience, right?
Jennie: Yes, yes. That is, that is where I've grown into. And it came in large part from doing the challenges wrong. Right? Which is, which was such a funny place for me to, to live and breathe, right? Is that like it, it really started off in this rigid adhering to the 30 day rules. And, and by year 3, it was like, okay, Jennie, you're going to choose to do this. 80%. And you're gonna see what that feels like, and, and see if you can still be kind to yourself if you do it 80% good, right? There's a practice that's the challenge.
Laura: That's the practice, that's the work. I love it. That's the work. Oh, Jennie, thank you so much for this conversation. I had so much fun learning from you and with you. Can you make sure that our listeners know where to find you, where to find your book, so that they can explore this a little bit more?
Jennie: Yeah, you bet. So, first of all, thank you for having me. This has been a treat and it is so nice to get to connect in a way that's really meaningful, and this was really meaningful for me, so thank you. Okay, so if, if you want to connect on the social world, like I said, I am there. I do not actively post, but I, like I said, I'll respond to a few things. If you're a troll, I will respond with love and kindness, and that will probably be uncomfortable for you as well. But I don't think that I don't think the trolls are listening right now. I don't think the trolls are listening right now, right? No, I wish they would, but, they probably need to. They do. They need all the love and kindness. My, my Instagram is at becoming Jennie, and, you can also, if you are, needing therapy, if you're really anxious and you're needing some therapy, I have a group practice called the West Coast Anxiety Clinic, and you can reach it at westcoastanxiety.com.
Laura: Okay. And your book is available, wherever you get books.
Jennie: Yeah, well, so the book is available on Amazon. It looks up the thirty-day Path to digital minimalism and real life Maximalism.
Laura: Great. Good. Thank you, Jenny, so much. All right, thank you.
Jennie: You're, you're a star. Thank you.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!