Episode 141: What You Need to Know about Childhood Substance Use with Richard Capriola

The topic that we will be tackling for this week's episode on The Balanced Parent podcast is a bit tricky, but it's also something we will all need to think about sooner or later: Substance Use. I don't love the idea of parenting from a place of fear, as I'm sure you know, but I also know the statistics about teenage substance use and the risks. I want to be mindful and conscious as my children approach their teen years, with the hopes of fostering honest conversations that help my kids see me as a safe space to get information and help when they need it. I also know that some of you with teens may be feeling a bit lost for warning signs to look for and how to hold boundaries while honoring your teen's autonomy.

No matter where you are in your parenting journey, I hope this conversation can be there for you when you need it! To help me in this conversation, I am joined by Richard Capriola. He has been a mental health and addiction counselor for over two decades. He worked as an addictions counselor at Menninger Clinic in Houston Texas for over a decade where he treated adolescents and adults diagnosed with mental health and substance use disorders. He is the author of The Addicted Child: A Parent's Guide to Adolescent Substance Abuse.

Here's an overview of our conversation:

  • What warning signs should parents know about and the first step to do when noticing these signs

  • Body Autonomy and how to balance between being able to choose what to do with their body, the substances to put in their body, and keeping them safe and their well being

  • How to balance supporting our children with love and compassion vs. crossing that line into enabling their substance use

If you want to get more support for your kiddo, visit Richard's website helptheaddictedchild.com.


TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of The Balanced Parent, we are going to be talking with my guest expert Richard Capriola and he is a mental health and addictions counselor and an expert on helping families whose child or teen adolescent is dealing with substance abuse and addiction. So this conversation I know can be a topic that is hard and scary for parents to even think about. I know a lot of my audience has younger kids and some who have teens and so I'm really excited to have this conversation both for parents whose teens are perhaps facing these issues who are entering the age where substance use starts becoming more prevalent and for those of us with younger kids like myself who are looking for ways to prevent substance abuse. So Richard, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being with us. Will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? 

Richard: Yes, thank you, Laura. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and I think that you just identified the core reason as to why I wrote my book The Addicted Child: A parent's Guide to Adolescent Substance Abuse, when you talked about how this is such a scary topic for parents. It is a scary topic and I wrote my book to give them information to give them resources. I kept it very short, hoping that they would feel better prepared for this in the event that they need to confront it, that they would not be so afraid of this topic that they would learn about it, that they would be more knowledgeable about it and feel more confident, that they can deal with this issue. So that was a good introduction as to why I wrote the book. 

My background includes a long history in education. I was in education administration for over 30 years in Illinois. I transitioned from that career to working in mental health where I worked as a crisis center counselor and I noticed that quite a few people who were coming to the crisis center had a mental health issue and a substance abuse issue. So I went back to the University of Illinois and obtained a master's degree in human services with an emphasis in addictions counseling. I continued to work at the crisis center for a while until I was offered a position at Menninger Clinic in Houston texas. Menninger Clinic is a large psychiatric hospital serving adults and adolescents. And I worked there for over a decade treating both adolescents and adults who were diagnosed with mental health and substance abuse issues. 

Many families, many parents who were struggling with this issue of having a child with substance abuse and worked with them. And then I left Menninger a little over a year ago and I, and because of my work with so many parents, I wanted to write a resource that would be a good guide for them. And I kept it to around 100 pages because I know parents are busy, they don't have time to read several 100 pages. So I kept it to about 100 pages with very short concise chapters, but yet packed it with a lot of information that I hope is helpful for parents and that I think that will be beneficial to them. Make it maybe a little bit less scary of a subject for them. 

Laura: Yeah, well I really appreciate that and I appreciate what you're saying here too, that this might be some a resource to check out and look into, even if you have younger kids or even if the substance use isn't actually something that you're terribly concerned about with your kids. Just so that you know, you're prepared and ready for the conversation or for what to do if it comes up. I really like that perspective.

Richard: I think knowledge is power. So the more we can empower parents by giving them the information on this subject, the less fearful they become of it and they feel better prepared and no matter what the age of your child may be they’re 6, maybe they're 7, maybe 8, maybe they're 15, 16, it's never too late or too early to begin to become familiar with this issue. Know what's going on out there in terms of kids using substances. Know how the substances work in the developing adolescent brain. What resources and tests are out there and just become less afraid and more confident that you'll be able to handle this issue if it does come up. 

Laura: Yeah, I so appreciate that. I think it's so important to be prepared in that way. Okay, so then let's dive into some of those things that you just brought up. What are some of the warning signs that parents should set off alarm bells for parents that we can be looking out for? 

Richard: That isn't an important issue because so many times I would sit across from parents and I would go through their child's history of using a substance and I would give them the diagnosis of a substance use disorder that was either mild or moderate or severe. And when I finished explaining the history of their child's use of a substance, they would look at me and many times they would say I had no idea this was going on. Or if they did suspect their child was using a substance, they would say something like, well I sort of thought something was going on, but I didn't know it was this bad, and these are good parents and they would feel guilty. They would say, how did I not know this was going on? How did I not catch it? How did I miss the warning signs? Well, they missed the warning signs because nobody told them what to look for. 

So in my book, I present warning signs for a child that might be drinking alcohol. Warning signs for a child that might be using marijuana. Warning signs for a child that might be developing an eating disorder or self harming because they sometimes can accompany a child using a substance. So those warning signs are all listed in my book. As a general rule, what I recommend to parents is pay attention to the changes that you see in your child, you know, your child better than anyone. So pay attention to the changes that you see. Don't assume that the changes that you're seeing, the behaviors that you're seeing is just normal adolescent acting out. It may very well be, but it also might be an indicator that there's something else going on underneath the surface. The longer these changes last and the more of these changes you see, you probably should be more concerned. 

If you see a change that lasts for a couple of days or you just see maybe one of these changes for a brief period of time. Okay. That maybe that's not too concerning. But if you start to see a series of changes in your child's behavior and they last for longer periods of time, then you need to be concerned and maybe follow up and get some advice as to what's going on and some assessments. Some of the examples that I give parents are, you may have a child that was earning very good grades and now the grades are starting to fall. You may have a child that was very social and outgoing now becomes very isolating and quiet. You may have a child who used to participate in sports no longer wants to participate in sports. You may have a child who very openly introduced you to their friends, you knew who their friends were, you might have even known who their family members were, now becomes very secretive of who their friends are. So, these are just some examples of changes that we see in children that as parents, we need to follow up on and see, you know, what's going on underneath the surface.

Laura: Oh yeah, those are super common ones. I think changing friend groups is probably one too. I love that you are mentioning that parents should trust their guts. That we have good instincts, that we know our kids and that if there is something that feels off that we shouldn't downplay that, that we should trust ourselves. You know? Not get alarmist, but really take note of those things that are kind of giving. I call it our parenting spidey sense. I think parents get a little bit of a tingle, you know, when they know something's not quite right with their kids and we should trust that.

Richard: Yeah, you should trust it. Like I say, you know, your child, you know, you know their behaviors and you know, when something's not quite right too. And some when, when some behavior just seems out of the ordinary and maybe it lasts for a day and it's not too concerning. But if you start to see a pattern of these happen and they're happening for an extended period of time, then I think we know as a parent something's going on now, we're not professionals, we don't have all of the information in training that others have, but we have the instinct of just knowing something's not right here. So let me check out with some professionals and get an assessment done and get the information that I need as a parent so that I can make some decisions. 

Laura: You're leading me right where I want to go then. So if we're having some sense, our intuition is telling us that something's not quite right or we're seeing some of these warning signs as a parent who loves their child, what's the very first thing we should do? Should we go to our kiddos? Should we reach out to their doctor? Where do we go? What's our first step? 

Richard: I think the first thing that you do is have a conversation with your child. To have a discussion to express your concern, not to accuse your child of doing something, not to threaten them, but to have a conversation that goes along the lines of I'm seeing this behavior, can you help me understand why I'm seeing it? So that maybe the child will feel less threatened and will be able to offer some information about why you're seeing the behavior. So you want to approach it from a curiosity point of view. I'm seeing this behavior. Can you help me understand why I'm seeing it? Now, that's a conversation that's likely to go one of two ways. It's either gonna blow up and the child's gonna become defensive and argumentative, which you probably have seen before as a parent in your child or it might actually lead to some information that you were unaware of. 

The other thing I would say is we're pretty good at listening to each other's words. When we talk to each other and when we talk to our kids. We're not so good sometimes that listening to the feelings that are behind those words and that's a skill that every parent can work on and every parent can develop. And I encourage every parent to work on developing those listening skills so that when we're talking to our children and you're having a conversation. You're not just hearing your child's words, you're hearing the feelings behind those words. It takes practice, it takes work, but it's a skill every parent can learn and can practice. 

Once you have that conversation with your child, regardless of how it goes,  if you still have concerns, the next step is to get the assessments done that I've outlined in my book so that you can get a diagnosis, rule in or rule out anything that might be going on. Get a treatment plan put together if it's needed and get some recommendations from professionals on what you're seeing and what the next step should be. So, regardless of how that first conversation or second conversation goes with the child, if you're still concerned, you need to get the assessments done that I've outlined in my book.

Laura:  Okay, great, thank you for that. You know, you're mentioning these curious open empathic conversations and I think that this is highlighting probably, and correct me if I'm wrong, but highlighting one of the things that parents can be doing from a very young age as a preventative too. So I know that one of my goals as a parent with my young kids is to encourage trust and security and have ongoing curious conversations about their feelings. Well, I'm practicing those good skills so that in those big moments later when they're teens, we already have that relational context. We already have a pattern of communicating in that way. You know what I mean?

Richard:  That is absolutely right. I agree with you that the younger you can start to practice these skills, the younger your child is, the sooner you can begin to develop that foundation of trust and communication. So if your child is preteen, learn these listening skills, practice these listening skills, you'll get better as you practice and and over time. But even if your child is 14, 15, 16 or 17, this is still a skill that will benefit both you and them. So regardless of the age of your child, you know, work on developing these listening skills, fine-tune your listening skills so that you're listening, not just to your child's words, but you're tuning into the feelings as well and reflecting those back to the child in a way that the child is able to check whether or not what you're hearing is the way that they're feeling. That can be a very powerful communication tool. 

Laura: Absolutely. And if you're wrong and they're correcting you just know like they're giving you feedback. Like, no mom, that's not quite right. It's really this, just know that that means you've got a lot of trust with them that they're able to give you that feedback and please don't be defensive about it or contradict them. Trust them. 

Richard: Because you don't want to invalidate those feelings by questioning them or saying they're not right. What you want to do is validate their feelings and maybe you did misunderstand it. And that's the whole purpose of this communication so that you as a parent, get a better understanding of how your child is thinking and how your child is feeling and you're getting that information directly from the child. Sometimes you'll misinterpret it, that's normal. That's human. But that's the whole purpose of reflecting back what you're hearing. It gives the child the opportunity to say, Yeah, that was right.' That's exactly how I'm feeling or no, that's not quite it. Let me try to rephrase that. 

Laura: Yeah, that's beautiful. Okay, so something that's bubbling in my head right now is that you were mentioning before that in your experience you would have parents who experience guilt around not having seen the signs or that there's something that they missed or something that could have been done differently. And now we're kind of talking about things that we can be doing as parents to prevent substance use or help our kids if they're starting to use substances in a way that is abusive or disordered. And so, like that piece is always a really like tender line for me to walk because I definitely don't want parents to feel guilty. It's not all our fault when our kids have things going on for them. And so I guess I just want to know if you have anything to say to parents who perhaps are in that place of knowing their kids are struggling and feeling like it's all their fault. 

Richard: I think as parents, we do take on that burden of thinking that it's our fault. What did I do wrong? How could I have prevented this? How did I not see the warning signs? And I think first of all, just to recognize that those are very normal human feelings that as parents, we sometimes experience and raising a child that it's okay to have those feelings, but to recognize that there are certain things that we don't have absolute control over. And as our children get older, they tend to disengage from us and they tend to become more independent and that carries a risk with it. There are only certain things that we can do as parents to protect our child and we do everything that we can. But the bottom line is that every child is vulnerable to becoming captured by alcohol or drug use. No child is totally protected. 

There's protective environments and we try to construct those protective environments for our children. But no child is totally protected. It doesn't matter where you live, suburban, urban, rural area, it doesn't matter what your income level is. It doesn't matter what church you go to. Doesn't matter what school you go to. All children are subject to being captured by substance abuse now.  That doesn't mean you should become paranoid about it. That means you should just learning information, gain the knowledge, feel more confident that if it arises, you'll be able to handle it. And you'll be better prepared to deal with it rather than try and deal with it in the midst of a crisis which is already very disturbing. But then on top of that, you sort of get in a situation where you don't know where to go, you don't know who to turn to. You don't know what to do next. Hopefully, my book and the information that's in it will help you feel more confident that if you're in this situation, hopefully, you won't be. But if you are, you'll be better prepared and more confident to deal with it. 

Laura: Yeah, I think that's so important. Thank you for that reassurance that it's not all our fault and even though those feelings can be natural and normal, can also make it a lot more overwhelming. To be kind of …

Richard: And there are a lot of reasons why children turn to alcohol or drugs. There's not just one reason some of them do it because of peer pressure. Some of them do it because they just want to experiment with it. Some of them do it because they had an opportunity to use a substance it was offered to them and they tried it and then they get a feeling that they really like and they continue with it. And for some children, not all children, but for some children, there's an underlying psychological issue that's driving that child to use a substance. You know, I worked in a psychiatric hospital. So a lot of the children that I worked with had not only a substance abuse issue, but a mental health issue as well. 

For example, just about every child that I worked with who was smoking marijuana when I asked them to help me understand why they were smoking marijuana. The number one answer that came back was it helps me with my anxiety. So for a certain number of kids, not for all kids, but for a certain number of kids, there's an underlying mental health issue that needs to be addressed. And oftentimes, we don't see it because we get so focused on the alcohol use or the marijuana use or the drug use that we fail to see that the child is really trying to deal with an underlying issue. It might be anxiety or depression or maybe being bullied at school that we didn't know about. So that's the reason why if you're concerned, you need to get these professional assessments to either rule in or rule out whether or not there might be some other issues going on with your child. 

Laura: Yeah, that makes so much sense. Absolutely. I'm sure we can all relate, you know, especially during this pandemic. I know lots of adults struggle with self-medicating with substances. I feel kind of curious if we can go into, you know, a little bit. I see child substance use. So my training is in marriage and family therapy. I'm a systems thinker, very systemic and I feel curious about how family culture and parents' behavior around substances tends to influence children's behavior with substances.

Richard: I think it has a lot to do with a child's vulnerability to using a substance. Parents who are tend to be more permissive, inadvertently develop that culture where their child begins to think it's okay to use substances. I sometimes get out, ask the question, well, what do you think about parents who say to their child, okay, you can drink alcohol, but you only can do it in the home. My reaction is what the research shows about that, is that for parents who allow their child to drink alcohol at home, those children, when they go off to college end up drinking even more than children who come from homes where it was discouraged. So it is not good advice for a parent to allow their child to use a substance in their home or anywhere else. 

And the reason for that is as parents, we need, first of all to recognize that our child's brain is in the process of maturing and developing. It's not Going to get developed until around age 24 or 25. So we need to do everything we can to protect that child's brain and substances interact with the brain and can cause some rather serious consequences as a result of injecting substances into the brain. And that's something that kids don't recognize. And many parents don't recognize it because they haven't been informed about the neuroscience of how drugs work within the brain. And that's such an important issue that I put a very brief chapter in my book on the neuroscience so that parents very quickly could understand how drugs like marijuana work within their child's brain and influence behaviors and actually change the brain. I've seen some consequences of that in the kids that I've worked with. 

Laura: It's really interesting, you know, so I'm in Wisconsin And state law allows children to drink with their parents even in bars. So at 16, a child can be in a bar with their parents and drink. It's a very cultural thing here and I like that you're talking about that difference and you're bringing some evidence and research to it that those kids who drink with their parents, you know, I hear this often and kind of common wisdom in the parenting world that if we teach kids young, we give them permission. Well, we won't make it kind of forbidden fruit. They'll learn their tolerance. They'll learn what it feels like and they won't experiment so much outside of the home. It's interesting to hear that the research actually shows the opposite effect. 

Richard: Yes. I mean, kids take a lot of cues and a lot of their information from, you know, their parents, even their grandparents and their aunts and their uncles. They looked at them as being sources of information. Sometimes it doesn't seem that way for us parents, but they really do rely on us for information. And if we have a home environment which discourages alcohol and discourages drugs that has an impression on these kids. And, it's an important thing for parents to do.

Laura: And so what about parents' own use of alcohol? Like being able to have a glass of wine with dinner? Not problematic use, but normal use.

Richard: I think there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's not something that necessarily needs to be discouraged. Adults are adults. But I think if the question comes up is to, well, why is it okay for you to drink and not okay for me to drink, then I think you get back to the neuroscience, you know? If there is one thing that I noticed in working with so many teenagers who are using substances. The one thing that really captured their attention was the neuroscience. It didn't do me any good to tell them the drug was illegal or that their grades might decline. They might not graduate. They might not get in the car. They didn't believe any of that stuff. 

Laura: No, that didn’t quieted them.

Richard: Yeah right. But what did capture their attention was when I talked to them about the brain and when I talked to them about the neuroscience of how these substances work within the brain. So my recommendation to parents is, if you want to have a conversation with your child about alcohol and substance abuse, approach it from the neuroscience point of view, learn about the neuroscience, learn about the brain. Not, you don't have to become a neuroscientist but learn the basics of it like I have in my book so that you can have a conversation with your child about the need to protect their brain, how vulnerable their brain is and how substances can change the brain. The example that I would give you is, the kids that I was working with, the young men and women that I were working, that I was working with who were smoking a lot of marijuana, they had very high IQs. Their IQs were above average to superior. But they were smoking marijuana multiple times today.

 And when the psychological test came back I noticed that the processing speed of their brain was below average. Their short-term memory was impaired and their motivation was curtailed and those are examples that, of how a drug like marijuana can interact with the developing brain and cause some serious complications. Now, you know, these kids may or may not have noticed the effect, but when I showed them how these drugs work in the brain, I would show them the different areas of the brain and what they're responsible for and then I'd show them where marijuana attached itself to the brain, I had their attention. So the route to getting children's attention is through the neuroscience approach and that's an approach that parents can very easily learn and use with their own children to just educate them on how their brain works and the importance of keeping their brain protected from these drugs.

Laura:  I love that. I think that kids deserve to be educated about their bodies and about their brain and I think that they want to be educated about it. Even my 8-and-a-half-year-old enjoys learning about her brain and what's going on in her brain and why sometimes she's 8 and a half and the difference between her brain and her six-year-old sister's brain. We talk about their brains all the time to explain why some things are hard for her little sister and easier for her and how they will get easier even more so as she gets older as her brain power grows. I think kids are hungry for that at all ages. They want to know about their bodies. 

Richard: They're very curious and as a parent, we can sort of use that route to begin age appropriateness to be able to introduce the importance of the brain, to educate them on what the brain does in the different areas of the brain, you know? You know, this area of the brain helps you with speech. This one helps you with coordination and balance and so on and so forth. And then as they get a little bit older, we can start to introduce the idea of well how do we protect our brain and what are some of the things that can damage our brain? And then you can get to the discussion of, okay, well let's talk about how alcohol and drugs work within your brain. 

And then you begin over a process of time to begin, to reinforce in your child the need to protect the brain and how these drugs can damage the brain. It's a discussion as you pointed out, that can begin at a very young age appropriately, and as the child gets closer to pre-teen and teenage, you can start to build in more of the education component of it. So first you've captured their attention and their curiosity and then you build on that with the education.

Laura:  I love that. And I think, you know, it's funny so as a child of the eighties of course, when I think about this is you know, about your brain on drugs. I think about that classic commercial, you know, with the egg and the frying and do you remember that one?

Richard: I remember it very well. Just say no campaign that basically we're running all the time. But yeah, yeah… 

Laura: So the frying pan, the egg is cracked in the frying pan and says, this is your brain and this is your brain on drugs, but you're talking about having a much more nuanced conversation. And I think if we're starting early, if they're used to us talking about their brain, it won't seem so targeted and some kids are really resistant to our persuasion or to our agenda. And so I think if we are building it along the way having multiple conversations, it won't seem so kind of out of the blue about these things.

Richard: Right. You want to start with the basics. Just educate them about the brain, and then appropriately at certain points start to enter discussion on how different things can affect the brain, including alcohol and drugs. But, you know, other things as well. 

Laura: Okay, alright. So there's a question that I want to ask you and I've been thinking about how to ask you this. So a lot of my listeners feel very passionately about teaching their children about bodily autonomy and consent that it's their body, it's their choice and we start that young with diaper changes. And so lots of the parents in my community have been working really hard on body autonomy and I know that one of their big questions on this topic specifically is as my children grow and as they become teens, how do I balance their bodily autonomy there being able to choose what to do with their body, the substances to put in their body and keeping them safe and their well being? How do I walk that line in a balanced way? 

Richard: Well, again, I think it gets back to the education component, I think it's you as a parent helping your child as they grow older in an appropriate way, begin to understand that yes, it is their body and having that body carries with it a responsibility to take care of that body and what does that mean? How do we take care of our body? That is not just a discussion on alcohol or drugs, but there's a lot of different ways in which we can in a healthy way take care of our body. You know, it includes nutrition, exercise, a whole bunch of things that we do to help us stay healthy and feel good about ourselves. And so you can have that conversation about, yes, you do want to develop your own body. 

You want to take responsibility for your body as you get older and become you know, more responsible for the decisions that you make. So let's have a discussion on healthy decisions that you can make and unhealthy decisions that some people make, not you, but some people make and then you can structure and end terms of a dialogue about okay with autonomy comes the responsibility to make these decisions. So let's talk about how we can make healthy decisions. And let's talk about what maybe some unhealthy decisions are. And they participate in the discussion in terms of identifying which are unhealthy and which are healthy. So really you're giving the child the authority and the opportunity to take responsibility for their own health. 

Laura: Absolutely. I think an important thing to add here, I'd love to know your opinion on it too, is to make sure that we're leaving moral judgments out of the conversation because I think that if kids think that we are judging them or shaming them, that the, you know, making those mistakes or choosing something that is less healthy is going to carry judgment from us or disappointment from us. They will be less likely to disclose that to us in the future. So, I think coming from a place that is honest, but nonjudgmental, I don't,  I don't know what do you think? 

Richard: I think you're absolutely right. There's an item in my book that talks about why is it that some children are reluctant to talk to their parents about things that are bothering them? And when we ask children that question, the response that comes back is a fear of being judged. Kids fear being judged by their parents. So they often…

Laura:  All humans fear being judged. We all are, but especially kids. 

Richard: And that's one of the reasons why they say that they would hold information. So I think, you know, developing that foundation of trust is very important to allowing your child to feel comfortable disclosing things to you in a way that they feel you won't be judging them, you know? And so if they can tell you, hey, I tried marijuana once you don't, you know, come down and judge them. You don't criticize them. You don't threaten them. But you come back to the perspective of trying to understand, well, what was it that led you to want to try this? So kids fear being judged by their parents and whatever you can do to help a child not feel like they're going to be judged, I think sets that good foundation for communication and trust. 

Laura: I agree. And I think probably the same goes for punishment. So if we're using harsh punishments, it can decrease a child's willingness to disclose to us, right? 

Richard: Yes, Absolutely. Yeah. 

Laura: Okay. And so one of the other questions that I wanted to ask that's kind of on the same lines of balance, right? So we're The Balanced Parent Podcast. We talk about balance a lot here. I think a lot of families who have a child who is struggling with substance abuse really don't know how to balance supporting their child with love and compassion versus crossing that line into enabling their substance use. So I would love to have a discussion on how to hold boundaries and protect their child and support their well-being in a way that doesn't enable them to continue using. 

Richard: That's a tough call for any parent setting the boundaries, enforcing the boundaries and then coping with the reaction that you get from the child, which many times is going to be anger very negative and learning how to deal with that issue. And there is no simple solution to it. I would say to every parent who is going through experience of having a child who has a substance use issue to get some support, get some help. I think that's very important. Oftentimes we put the focus on the child and we lose sight that the parent is going through their own struggle, their own issues with this. 

I wrote a parent handbook that accompanies this book, which helps parents work through the feelings and the emotions that they're having. I think it's best worked in consultation with a close friend, a family member or a therapist or a counselor. But the bottom line is if you're a parent who is struggling with a child who's using a substance, Yes, you need to get the assessments done. You need to get the diagnoses and the treatment plan so that you know what should be done next and what type of treatment is best for your child, but you also need to get support for yourself. That's so very important. So that you don't feel isolated, you don't feel alone and get the help that will support you because this not only affects your child, it affects your entire family, including you as a parent. 

So I encourage parents if you're going through this, do what you can to get some support for yourself. Maybe it's a good friend, maybe it's another family member, maybe it's a counselor or a therapist, but get some help for you and support for yourself. So that you are better able to take care of yourself and support your child as they go through this process of assessment and treatment and recovery. The other message I would say to parents is there is hope, there is hope that your child and your family can get through this process and they can recover. 

The remarkable thing about the adolescent brain is it has a remarkable capacity to heal itself. So once a child goes into treatment, even if they're to go into treatment, you know, and they go through the treatment process and you as a parent, go through that struggle with them of getting them into treatment and supporting them as they go to treatment and aftercare. There is a tremendous amount of hope that your child and your family can recover from this crisis of a child using substance. There is hope out there, recovery does happen. It doesn't happen automatically, you know, so many times it requires treatment, but there is hope that recovery and treatment can work.

Laura:  Richard, I feel like that's the perfect place to leave this with a message of hope. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your expertise. I want to make sure that people know exactly where to find you. Do you want to share where the best place to reach out to you if they have questions or want to check out your book? 

Richard: I would say the best place to go is the book's website which is www.helptheaddictedchild.com. On that website, they can read endorsements, they can read book reviews, they can see a sample of the book, they can learn a little bit about the parent workbook. There's a link that will take them directly to amazon where they can order the workbook. The main book is available as a Kindle for people who like to read on Kindle. For people who like to mark up books and highlight them, it's also available in paperback and I priced it to be extremely affordable for parents because I really want to make this an affordable resource for them. And if your child is 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ,7 or 17 or 18, it's never too late to get this information and feel empowered by having the information. There's also a link that will allow them to go directly to amazon where they can purchase the book or the parent workbook and a link where they can contact me. So go to www.helptheaddictedchild.com

Laura: Well thank you so much, Richard. I really appreciate it. 

Richard: Thank you, Laura. I really appreciate you and the work that you're doing and also your contributions to this discussion which I thought were very helpful. So thank you very much. 

Laura: It was a really fun discussion. Thank you. Surprisingly fun discussion on a topic that can be hard to talk about. So thank you for that. 

Richard: You're welcome. Thank you. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

Episode 140: Shifting Focus from Behavior to Seeing the Whole Child with Shani Mandel

As a podcast host, I get approached by experts in different fields. And one of the fields I get approached by a lot are board certified behavior analysts who practice a form of therapy called Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA). ABA is one of the very few forms of therapy that are "approved" for autistic folks and in listening to and learning from the autistic community, many have outlined the harm caused by ABA to themselves and their loved ones. And while the ABA field as a whole seems to be working to change their practices and stop the most harmful of them, it is still grounded in a behaviorist perspective that can be incredibly dehumanizing.

On the flipside, I also have desperate parents reaching out to me on a regular basis who are looking for guidance and ABA is the only option being recommended to them, and I simply don't know enough about ABA, and how it is changing to, to make a responsible recommendation. It's a really nuanced issue and I felt the need to discuss it with someone who knew ABA from the inside, who knew how to look beyond behaviors, and who if all possible identified as neurodiverse.

Well, I finally found the person to come on and talk about it with us, so here we go! For this week's episode, I am excited to introduce Shani Mandel. She is a certified provider of Collaborative and Proactive Solutions and has formal training in the RIE parenting method. She is a neurodivergent adult and a parent coach specializing in transforming parents’ relationships with their children. She is also a former Applied Behavioral Analyst.

Here's a summary of what we talked about:

  • Applied Behavior Analysis: What it is, what it isn't, and why it may not be right for your child

  • How to shift our focus from seeing the behavior to seeing the whole child

  • Collaborative Problem Solving


If you want to get more support for your kiddo, visit Shani's website yourconfidentchild.com. And, follow her on Instagram @your_confident_child.


TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we're gonna be talking about how our approaches to working with neurodivergent and challenging kids has changed over the past, you know 10 years and in particular.

So as a host of a podcast, I get approached by experts in a range of fields often. And one of the fields that I get approached by a lot are folks who are board-certified behavior analysts practice a form of therapy called ABA. And it's something that I have been reluctant to have a guest on in this area because in my experience with the autism community, particularly autistic adults and their reflections on their time in ABA, the community, in general, has had some pretty negative experiences with it. And so I've been reluctant. I very much want to prioritize autistic voices here in this podcast and I've been really struggling with this because I get asked a lot, but I finally found the person to come on and talk about it with you. So I'm excited for this conversation.

My guest this week is one of the community managers in my free Balance Parenting Facebook group. If you're not in there yet, the link to it is in the show notes, I'd love to have you come in. So our moderator is a certified collaborative and proactive solutions provider like I am. Collaborative and proactive solution is the model that was built by Dr. Ross Greene. You might be familiar with his book The Explosive child. This model is a beautiful collaborative approach to meeting a child where they are and supporting them in getting their very unique needs met so that there can be more harmony in a home.

So Shani, my guest, and I are both certified in CPS and Shani happens to be a former BCBA. And so she's going to share a little bit about why she left the field and moved into this more collaborative approach and I'm hoping that this conversation will be really helpful, particularly for families who are looking to get their kiddos, some support. Get their family, some support and are finding that most of the providers available are recommended to them have that BCBA, those letters behind their name. So that's my hope for this podcast episode.

Shani, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you. Why don't you just introduce yourself for a minute for those of you who aren't familiar with you yet, I hope you all will get familiar with her. She does amazing Facebook live so many great questions in our free Facebook group. So Shani, welcome to the show. 

Shani: Hi! Thank you for that compliment. 

Laura: Of course. Tell us about yourself.

Shani: I have a certified collaborative proactive solutions provider. That's something that I've been involved with for probably about two years now. And before that I spent about a decade in the ABA field. The last two years of which I was board certified, which would be the supervisory level, maybe a therapist. 

Laura: Yeah, and for listeners, sorry, ABA, stands for Applied Behavioral Analysis. Yes?

Shani: Yeah. Exactly. 

Laura: Okay. And so what is it that led you to see the need to leave that field?

Shani: You know,  it wasn't an instant decision. It really was a very gradual process. I fell into the field at the age of 19. It was a summer job. I worked out a special ed school and I was put in the ABA classroom and was trained and I was like, oh, this seems so cool, we can actually control what kids do. It seems like such a wonderful thing. I guess, I kind of put it towards my young age at the time that I really just wasn't thinking about what's right or wrong, but this was what was told to me.

Laura:  I think it's important to note too that at 19, the part of our brain and you know, we think of 19 is a complete adult, but 19-year-olds, the part of our brain that makes rational decisions, does a lot of good abstract thinking. That kind of, that last level is still growing, still got five more years to go of growth and development. So I just want to offer your beautiful brain some compassion. At that point.

Shani: That's a good point actually. Yeah. You know what? It was about maybe five years into the field. So that would match with what you just said, that I was starting to think and starting to have doubts. And so my first introduction to a different way of seeing parenting and education was the RIE method I found online somehow. And so part of me knew like this is amazing when I have kids, I want to do this. But the other part of me was just like, okay, but we're doing ABA at work. So that's what we're doing.

Laura: Fascinating. I'm a RIE parent too, right? Like right parenting, I fell in love with it as when my children were infants, when my young… oldest was an infant, interesting. 

Shani: Yeah, 

Laura: It doesn't track, does it? When you're treating infants with such deep respect and collaboration.

Shani:  Yeah. It was a cognitive dissonance. It was yeah, this is… it's a very emotional topic. Like you'll see, I'm like pausing a lot. I'm feeling a lot of emotion about this journey. I would say that there's a lot of personal change that has happened for me, aside from professional change. Through finding a different way of trading children, I've discovered a different way of treating myself. 

Laura: That doesn't happen very much these days. Yeah, I feel like I'm so sorry. No, I'm not, sorry, tears are beautiful. I'm not sorry. The world wants us to apologize for our tears and our sensitivity. I don't think we should. But gosh, you just so succinctly summed up my vocation in learning to treat children differently. We learned to treat ourselves differently. It's beautiful. Sorry. 

Shani: It really is. Yeah. So, continuous journey. So yeah, I had that cognitive dissonance, right? And then there was a part of me too, that said that why can't they both be true ABA and this respectful approach and I want to clarify. So I'll go into a little bit of my viewpoint on ABA, because…

Laura: And maybe at some point maybe we should backtrack because maybe we don't… many of our listeners don't really know what ABA is, the approach. So maybe can I hold a placeholder for that? And you can tell us a little bit about what ABA is? And why maybe you didn't feel so respectful to you once you were learning more.

Shani:  Yeah, I definitely want to do that. And I'll just put in for now that I don't hold the position that ABA, that science is harmful. I want to clarify that because, you know, if ABA people are listening to this. I understand the need for accuracy and the science is the science and really the issues I had with the field were completely with the applications and not with the science itself, because you can't… It's like gravity. You can't have an issue with gravity. It's what you do with the information.

 Laura: Tell us more. I want to lean into that. What do you mean by that? What is the science? And then what is the, what are the problems with how it can be applied? 

Shani: There are principles of behavior that are just true. And that's what ABA is based on. The principles of behavior.  We learned, you know, in the courses that I took to become certified, we were taught that ABA is a natural science and not a social science. Meaning that they're seeing it as just a form of nature, right? Like gravity. And I don't doubt that that's true. I think that there is a part like I'm holding up like a circle viewers like a small little circle of behavior that we've managed to turn into a natural science that we've managed to analyze and break down into like measurable pieces. I think the issue comes from the fact that we were so confident that we've turned it into a natural science that we extend that into all realms of the motion and attachment and behavior change.

Laura:  And the reality is that humans are much more complicated than that. 

Shani: Right. And to me, because I've been in both worlds, I really see why there's such a divide between. I see why it's so hard for each, I don't know. Not that I think that autistic people need to hear, they decide, I don't want to say that. But I think a lot of what the struggle is with autistic adults really would like to ban ABA. And I totally understand that. And I, when I've seen ABA people on the receiving end of hearing that their argument is always but we're science. There's nothing to ban. We’re literally information that explains how the world works. So that's why the conversation never happens. 

Laura: So you're saying that it becomes abusive in its application?

Shani: Yes.

Laura: Or problematic in its application?

Shani: Right. The most neutral term.

Laura: At the same time, you know,  as I was preparing for this interview, I was thinking back to a time when my kids got guinea pigs. We were new pet owners for the first time and my oldest child desperately wants to learn everything about a topic that she can before she has to do something. And so she was reading a guinea pig care manual and there was… they were talking about how you can train a guinea pig, you know? To do tricks and stuff. But there was this pullout box that highlighted that you should never use punishment. You know? And punishment from a behavioral science perspective, punishment is a legitimate way of teaching animals. We use, that's how we learned, we learned it through B.F. Skinner's work, we learned it through Watson's work. We learned, you know, Pavlov's dogs that by applying a painful stimulus, animals will learn. 

And it's interesting to me that my child immediately recognize this because she knows that I teach parenting without punishment. You know, that when we talk about that in our home, she comes home and tells stories about punishments her friends have received and very curious about why parents think that that would work. And she, she read that part and she said to me, she's like, why do parents think that they should do something to kids that these experts are saying we shouldn't even do two guinea pigs, you know, it was just, it's just like it is…

Shani:  There's that dissonance there and so I don't think that them from the diagnosis piece that there's a certain that it's viewed as a medical thing they're trying to treat. So yeah, that's, that's a lot of the autistic adults complaint is view us as people not as diagnoses that need to be fixed. Yeah.

Laura:  Yeah, they don't need fixing. And honestly, in one thing that I've learned in my work with collaborative and proactive solutions, is that most of the time there's nothing wrong with the child. That happening for most kids who are having a really challenging time is that there's a mismatch between environment and the child's needs. 

And once the child's needs are more fully supported and seen and the environment is shifted, the kid is fine. They just, you know, aren't existing in a world that was built for them and we have been trained to want to make our children conform and fit into the box that we think they're supposed to fit into. And that's just not reality for a lot of folks and it's really not what's good for most people either. You know what I mean? I don't know, I feel like we got off track. But…

Shani: Yeah, there's so much to talk about. There's so many different things.

Laura:  So in my mind and my picture of ABA. And I think like probably the folks who, people who have maybe seen ABA, like the portrayals in the media maybe are not the greatest but… My gosh, what was that tv shows that has ABA therapist in it? She was ABA therapist, oh what the show is about? Families. I’m not going to be able to remember it. I’m gonna… They will come back to me. There seem to be a lot of rewards sticker charts by figuring out what motivates the child and using that to get them to do what you want. That's kind of my impression of ABA. What is it really like? 

Shani: Yeah that's a huge part of it. I like to break it down into… There's really two different reasons why I'm against ABA. And the first one is there are actual harmful practices that are still being done outside of those reward sticker. 

Laura: Such as what?

Shani: So the harmful ones that I think that the field is trying to move away from partially they're aware but I mean it's just still so widespread and so those would be - escape extinction is one. Escape extinction. Should I describe this?

Laura: Yeah go.

Shani: Trigger warning. 

Laura: Trigger warning. Yes. You know because we do have lots of folks who identify as autistic in our audience and who have autistic kids. So yeah. 

Shani: Yeah so trigger warning definitely for people for you to identify that way. So escape extinction is what the adult has determined is that the child is doing their behavior in order to get the reinforcer of escape right? That's the reason they're doing it. So how do we respond to that? 

Laura: Like I mean to like get out of doing something, is that what is that what that means in practical terms? Like you know if they are not doing their homework or something or you know… 

Shani: Yeah, maybe a standing a lot of times will be just running away from the work desk, you know, or just not having escaped from demands being presented as often.When the therapist has to tend to their behaviors all of a sudden work stops being presented, right? So that's the theory. So following that theory, how do we fix this? Well, we don't let them get what they want, what they're looking for. We don't let them get escaped. But how can you do that in a non harmful way? I mean, it's just not possible. You'd have to pretty much either restraints. So it was never called restraint at that point, it was called a full physical prompt, we can you know, that's maybe a legal question of what restraint actually is. But there were full physical prompts to keep the child continuing with the task or verbal continuing with the verbal demands that if they were escaping from the verbal demands, that's one of the things that….

Laura: Shani, help me like square this with the science. So if we're saying that this is a behavior, you know, this is a natural science behavior. Square with this with the science, with the neuroscience science of the fight or flight system that escape is but…

Shani: Their flight system and our science was not at all discussed. 

Laura: So there was never a thought if a child is running away from a work desk and hiding that their flight system might be activated? 

Shani: There was no discussion of that. What do you think about behaviors? Again, it's that when I'm holding up that small little circle it's they're so focused on the piece of behavior that they understand that they understand enough to measure and change, that they're ignoring the rest of behavior. And that's where the fallacy lies. Thinking that you can take what is. It's almost like when you have some truth, it's almost more dangerous if you think you have all the truth.

Laura: Because it blinds you to the full picture. 

Shani: Yes. And there is like you know what it does work if you prevent the child from escaping eventually they'll give up. So yeah, scientifically it works. And but what about the science of emotions and stress response and nervous system? All of that science is it just doesn't fit into the framework of that little circle that I talk about, the natural science understanding that they have. Now there is I think that is trying to be changed, and I think there are plenty that still do it and there are plenty that are understanding that we can't do this anymore. And that brings me to the second point of my disagreement with ABA. And that's just even if you eliminate those actively harmful practices, is reinforcement. What I call, I'm gonna use some ABA terminology which if any ABA people listening to appreciate this. 

The concept of us controlling the child's reinforcers means that what we're doing is contriving reinforcement. So because people always say reinforcement happens anyway, we're just choosing what to reinforce and what not to reinforce. It's been a while since I have like, writing so many writings of like how to explain this in the scientific terms because that's really what we need, we need to… The science is there and we have to go with the science and show that the science is being misapplied. We don't have evidence that contriving reinforcement is healthy for a relationship. That's the big question.Is it therapeutic? And I think as social beings, we can sense that it’s not. But because it’s out science or natural science,they go by - is there data?  And there's no data proving that it is damaging the relationship. So that's why they keep doing what they're doing.

Laura: I feel like my nervous system is experiencing some stress while discussing this topic. I don't know about you. Okay, can we just, I don't know if you like breaths, but I'm just gonna put my hand on my heart for just a second here and send some love and compassion out to all the kiddos and the folks who are grappling with this. I don't know about you but for me the lens change that I had to go through in learning about collaborative and proactive solutions and you know, as a parent reading the explosive child, you know from not from a clinician in but as a parent who needed the book. You know? The mindset shift, the lens change that I went through. 

And the idea of, you know, Dr. Greene's tagline kids do well when they can. That tagline is at complete odds with any form of reinforcement or attempt to control behavior because in order to control behavior using rewards and punishments or reinforcement or whatever. We have to, there has to be some that is all predicated upon the idea that the child has volitional control over the challenging behavior that they're displaying. And it's at complete odds with the idea that children are not choosing to be challenging. That when children are displaying challenging behaviors is because they've got lagging skills and unsolved problems. 

And for me, that perspective that mindset was such a huge relief as a parent, like understanding, you know, that the voice in my head telling me all these lies about my child. I was just completely misinformed, completely wrong, that my kid was struggling and in those moments when she was struggling, she needed de-escalation and compassion, and then we needed to work together proactively to figure things out. That mindset shift was a huge relief, continues to be a hard struggle too. But when I find it again after a difficult time when I settled back into, it just feels so it's like such a relief, there's nothing wrong with my kids. My kids not doing this on purpose. My kid is not fulfilling all of the greatest fears that parents have, you know, that they're never gonna get this. That they're doing this on purpose, that they're manipulating me all the things that parents, things like rolling through our heads. None of them are true. Anyway. Sorry. 

Shani: Yeah, that's true. 

Laura: So what was it like for you finding the collaborative and proactive solutions model when it seems like you're kind of your move away from ABA, was rather gradual. I'm kind of curious about when you started leaning and what your practice look as you leaned. 

Shani: You know, I spent the, I would say, the second half of my time in the ABA field I really was trying to both grapple with - is there still a way I was and I am convinced that you can use the science in a compassionate way if you acknowledge that you're only have the science only refers to a small tiny part of of our understanding of the brain and I was trying to like see if that's what I mean, I became board certified even when I was already grappling because I thought then I'll have more say in what's happening in the programs we set up.

I actually, there is one behavior analyst who I would say is the furthest along in ABA Reform and I started following him. His name is Greg Hanley and he is really focused on meeting children's needs first and foremost, that's a big step up and I thought okay maybe this is the answer. The reason I ended up leaving was because after trying to get this newer version of ABA implemented, I realized that the people that I was supervising had such a hard time processing this new way of thinking that it just, it was not happening. The shift wasn't happening even when I was at the supervisor level, I mean..

Laura:  Trying to swim upstream in a doubt like in a waterfall. 

Shani: Yes, it was and I even had the support of my boss, both the CEO and the director above me, they were all like, you know, we don't necessarily agree with that, we need to change, but you're welcome to do whatever you want. But it just yeah, swimming upstream, it was too hard. So I took probably, it was probably a year off where I didn't, I just didn't work and I was privileged I was able to do that. And I just spent the time learning and reading autistic people's perspective and also seeing what else is out there. I think that I knew in my mind already what I would want to do in my practice, but finding Dr. Greene was like finding someone who wrote the script out for me. So it's just so helpful when, when helping parents because he has the script written and I don't have to like to explain it from my own heart which can be harder and… 

Laura:  He's got science too... Right? So he's got lots of research behind him. 

Shani: Exactly. Yeah, he's done research. 

Laura: Yeah. So what is it about the CPS model that you like so much?

Shani: I think that piece that I said that it's scripted and it makes it like there's a step-by-step process to get to where we're trying to go?

Laura: Where are you trying to go? with families and kids? 

Shani: We're trying to change the relationship. That's really that's really what we're trying to do. I know that the model is about problem-solving but it's the relationship that really ends up changing and I'm sure you know that from your practice too. 

Laura: Absolutely. that the model is about problem-solving, you know, in having these a lot of sessions with kids and families. That first meeting with the parents and the kids together where you're gonna perhaps try solving a problem together? That first meeting is all about rebuilding trust with the child. They've had so many behavioral plans in place. They've had so many top-down decisions made about their lives. They've had so many attempts, well-intentioned attempts by beautiful, wonderful families, wonderful parents to solve problems where they just didn't stick with the model long enough and then applied a top-down solution to the kid that they didn't the kid didn’t… that you know, that really didn't fully understand the problem or that the kid didn't fully agree to, you know? 

So we do this a lot with kids. We do kind of, we really try hard to problem solve and then the kids not giving us much. And so then we just make a decision about what we're gonna try. And there's a lot of convincing that has to happen. I found, I don't know if you found with kids that this is going to be different, you know, and something that I talk about with my parents too, and with the kids is that my job here is to teach your parents how to do this because grownups aren't taught how to talk to kids. Grown-ups are taught how to really understand a kid's perspective. 

Most grownups don't know how to ask questions in a way that will help them understand what you need and that's my job and it's my hope that you will at one point you'll never see me again. You know? That you, because your parents are the ones who will be able to really hear you and understand you and see you. That's what I love doing. I love like coming in and getting out. I really like getting out and never seeing people again and, you know, like thinking of them fondly sometimes. Like, wondering how they are and knowing that they've got this. I really like that. 
Shani: Yeah, you had said to me, we were when we were talking at a different time. Something that really struck me. You had said that your work, you feel it's about helping the parent get in touch with their own inner wisdom. What a great concept. I've been holding that in me the whole time now as I do as I help my clients. 

Laura: Yeah, I love that too. I mean and that feels so good and that's I think that that's what, you know really, that's what collaborative and proactive solutions is about is about quieting the noise, all the cultural messaging that we receive about how we're supposed to be as parents, the authority figures, the ones in charge, you know that you know, and what our kids are supposed to be compliant, obedient, good listeners, you know? Attentive on task and just quieting all that noise and really seeing our kids very, very clearly for who they really, truly are. 

And I don't think, you know, and I think the other thing that I like very much about the collaborative and proactive solutions model is that, wow, the model itself is prescriptive, right? So there is a, there's a script that we follow, you know, that were trained in its you know, its manual eyes practically this and this is how they do research on it. They have to do it this way in order to do research. Right? So the folks listening, most of them love research talk and so we have to be.. before you know, I don't participate in any of the research studies. 

But if they are doing research studies, they have to have fidelity to the model to know that it's that it's the model that's working right when they look at outcomes for kids and so that is there. But there's a huge, within the model there's a huge range of variation for how each plan B or problem-solving conversation looks like with parents and children, right? Or with teachers and children. There's so much room for the individual family in it. I really like that. Whereas I you know, my impression of modalities like ABA, is that if you have X, you apply Y. You know? And you apply Y until…

Shani: I would say that ABA practitioners do strive to be individualizing their treatment plans. Yeah. It's that they're individualizing it within the small world of behavior reinforcer or behavior remove reinforcer to change the behavior right? When you have such a narrow window of how you're looking at things, you're missing everything else. And I really, I want to say to that I don't harbor any bad thoughts towards ABA people. I mean I think that everyone is trying to find their way within this complicated world. And I know that when I first found ABA, it seemed really reassuring. 

So, I've discovered I'm neurodivergent that's been part of my journey when I met the autistic community online. And I found it really reassuring at first and soothing to have this data based completely like all of our behavior just fits into these boxes. I think that, you know, there might be a lot of struggling nervous systems within the field that find it really reassuring and to know that okay we can fit everything into this box, everything's gonna be okay. Yeah, that might be why it's so hard to switch out of it because it has brought them a sense of like, you know, the world makes sense now. Get the world now. It's important to me.

Laura: Yeah, I think… I really like how you're talking about it in this one small piece and that order in that one small pieces there, you know? And right, like that sense of kind of relief and comfort comes to me when I see parents understand their kids concerns for the first time, you know? I was doing a CPS conversation with a girl who her parents, you know, I think have, we're really concerned in terms of think they were thinking about like oppositional defiant disorder, you know, all sorts of really big concerns, really big challenges. And the first one that we decided to focus on was filling up her own water bottle before bedtime. So filling up her water bottle that she would then have beside her on her bedside table. And as we were doing it, doing the problem solving, I was doing it with the girl, the parents just were sitting there with their jaws dropped. 

They had no idea how hard it was for her to do this job. They had, you know, the water bottles up high on the shelves, the ice machine was broken. So she had to open up the refrigerator and practically climbed into the, into the freezer to get the ice, you know, because there was just so many obstacles in her way. And the… you know after hearing all of these obstacles, they, they just apologized to her, we had no idea how hard it was, you know? I don't know, it's just that sense of relief that is order to me like that is that's relieving to me this is those moments of like we had no idea what was getting in their way. You know? We had no idea what is preventing them, you know, and that's relieving. I find so much relief in that I don't know about you. 

Shani: Yeah, me too, for sure. I think probably everyone's brain is different in terms of how much… this is slightly off-topic, but I just saw this fascinating study that different political, I'm not going political but that different political views have different types of brains and that like certain political views, those brains were more in need of order and structure and other types of brains, other types of political views. The brain was more in need of nuance and not being black and white and that to me explains a lot about like yeah, like I also find comfort in nuance and like I like the nuance of weight. 

Parent is not really in charge of the child. We're actually like all human beings and all of our concern while they're in charge, but they're responsible for them. All of our concerns are equal. That's like you have to enjoy the mental gymnastics, I think to be drawn to this method, but I think even for the other types of brains that they really need that order and control, I think what we can show them as a practitioner is that you actually will, will achieve much more order and control once you can let go of that need for everything to be perfectly in ordering control.

Laura: Yeah,  and even more powerful, you achieve influence, right? That I mean you because your child trusts you because your child thinks of you as on there, you're on their side that you want, you get them or at least, at the very least you want to get them, you want to understand them. Okay. So now I'm thinking about the parents who come to me and say my child was just diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder and we were referred to, you know, X, Y and Z therapies and one of them is an ABA therapist. 

So for those families who are just on the receiving end of a diagnosis or who perhaps already have their child in ABA. What do you want to say to them, what are the things that they should be looking out for, that they should be concerned about or that they should just be taking into consideration and holding lightly with curiosity, especially if this is the only, you know, so many of my the folks that I talk to are an isolated small communities where they have very little access to a broader range of resources. So if they're limited in what they can access, what do we do? I'm sorry. I feel like I just asked you like a five-part question. 

Shani: All five parts are great questions. Yeah. Okay. Well, first thing I want to say is that autism diagnosis feels like, and I've seen this with parents when they get hit with that. I think it's the way that the doctor presents it maybe? But they feel like their life has just changed. And the first thing I want to remind parents is that your child is still the same person they were a day ago before the diagno…  and you are not negligent if you don't do ABA. Okay? That's first of all, that's I think the probably the biggest 

Laura: The parents get that message? That you're negligent if you don't do ABA?

Shani: ABA is considered the medically necessary treatment for autism and autism is like a bad disorder and you have to treat it, right? Yeah, this is huge. You're not negligent for not doing ABA. Yeah, big stuff. Really big stuff. I hear what you're saying like and in communities where there really are no other resources. I think that parents can look into…  If they just need help because they're overwhelmed by the behaviors that are happening and they need like a babysitter type of person. I've seen some parents were, they want the ABA just for that purpose, you know like... Yeah. 

So, right. So for those parents I ask, I recommend they look into respite because that is also funded and that's just babysitting basically. What other reasons? I think some parents are worried that they're not, their child is not going to gain the skills that they need to gain. Look, I have worked with parents who have decided to keep their kids in ABA. I think that if you're very carefully monitoring and doing the research on what to look out for, you might just have a therapist coming in and I don't know teaching a skill but not forcing compliance. If that's where you need to go, there's no judgment from me and I would just say research, research, research, and monitor, monitor, monitor. I think that…

Laura:  There's a check-in with your child to like debrief with your child and see how, how it's going for them. 

Shani: Yeah. I mean when I say mantra, I would say like sit with…

Laura: Right, I mean, but also get their perspective because what we watch and see might not tell us much about how it feels to the child, you know, to be experiencing it.

Shani: Right. That's a great point too. Yeah. 

Laura: And then of course for those of us who are looking for support and wanting to do, you know, because worrying about the skills that they need to be successful, I have found in my own personal experience using this model, the collaborative and proactive solutions model myself, personally and professionally. And then of course lots of other folks who put this into practice that the skills that kids need to be successful are, are actively taught through experiential learning within the model. There's a lot of them. And so that's something else to just consider the need, you know, the ability to break a problem down into its parts, to think critically, and to take perspectives. You know, those are critical social skills and critical executive functioning skills and emotional skills that I don't think you can teach. I don't know that you can teach in a classroom-type setting. I think that those skills need to be practiced and used in order to get better at them and they're used very effectively. Yeah. Yeah. 

Shani: But like in ABA, we definitely try and teach, we would try and teach those skills but it's in a contrived situation. And yeah, we want them to learn the skills in an authentic setting like oh I am regulating my emotions because someone else, someone else's boundaries are being crossed and not because I'm gonna get the cookie at the end of this program. 

Laura: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And so for that there's folks like you and me who do collaborative and practice solutions, right? So we sit down with parents and help them. I'm not currently taking clients, but are you? Shani? 

Shani: Yeah, I still do have spots. Okay, good. I still have 1 to 1 spots open. For anyone looking for support. Please reach out. 

Laura: And do you so, you know, when I've worked with folks on collaborative and proactive solutions, it's been very kind of, that's what we're doing. Do you take clients who maybe are those folks who've just gotten this autism diagnosis and kind of need someone to hold them gently as they walk through the process and maybe do CPS at some point or are you pretty rigidly following the model in your work? 

Shani: I can do that too. I'm pretty familiar with the nuances of that shift and that's definitely something I feel very prepared to help families with because I walked through the shift myself. Yeah, not too long ago. 

Laura: Oh Shani, I so appreciate you sharing your experiences and perspectives and expertise listeners. If you're not already in my free Facebook community, the balanced parenting community, please come join us. Shani is a wealth of information. And if you have questions about the collaborative and proactive solutions model. She is your go-to person in there or you know, is seeking a 1 to1 consultation with her, why she's so good.

Shani: Thank you. Thank you for the chance to share this. This is really important stuff we're talking about today. 

Laura: It is, I appreciate the way that you've held kind of all sides of it with a lot of compassion and grace. I think that it is, it's a conversation that I have been I think has been needed, like has been necessary and there's no one else I would have wanted to have it with so I think I really appreciate it, Shani.
Shani: Yeah, of course. My pleasure.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out, and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

139: How to Support your Sensory Kids with Laura Petix

Let me ask if this sounds familiar:

Your child freaks out if there are tags of seams on some of their clothes or the transition to weather appropriate clothes is a nightmare...

Or it feels like your child is always crashing into you or things, jumping off of high stuff or needing a wrestle...

Perhaps loud noises or bright lights overwhelm them...

Or maybe they are just so. dang. loud. themselves?

If this does sound familiar for a kiddo in your life, your child may need some support with sensory processing! I hear this sort of thing from parents all the time, but sensory processing needs are still something that a lot of the professionals in our kids lives aren't fully versed in, let alone in how to help. So, to help us understand how to recognize "sensory stuff" when we see it and figure out if Occupational Therapy could help, I brought in the wonderful human behind one of my favorite Instagram accounts, The OT Butterfly (@theotbutterfly). She is a mom to her own sensory kiddo, wife and pediatric Occupational Therapist. With a degree in Neuropsychology and Masters in Occupational Therapy, she teaches parents how sensory processing impacts their child’s behaviors and how to support them.

Here's an overview of our discussion:

  • Occupational Therapy: How it helps neurodivergent kids or children with a sensory processing disorder

  • Sensory IS behavior (rather than the debate “is it sensory OR behavior?)

  • Figuring out if your kiddo needs more support from an OT and understanding what happens in an OT session

  • How to support sensory kids at home


If you want to get more support for your kiddo, you can schedule a consult with Laura Petix here www.theotbutterfly.com/parentconsult. And, follow her on Instagram @theotbutterfly.

RESOURCES


TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr Laura Froyen and on this week's episode we're gonna be talking about occupational therapy and how to support kiddos who are not necessarily neuro typical or have some sensory processing issues like I know many of your kiddos have. I will also touch on how to figure out if you need more support from an OT and to help me with this conversation, I'm bringing in one of my favorite accounts on instagram, the…  what is it? The Ot butterfly?  Yes, yeah, that's for your handle on instagram Laura. So we're having a Laura chat today. Laura, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do? 

Laura Petix: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. I love talking to everybody about parenting and OT. So I am a pediatric occupational therapist. I specialize in working with children ages 2-10 and I work in a private clinic part time. But the rest of my time I spend on instagram, on my podcast, on my website, on courses. I really have a passion, a deep, deep passion, like way too obsessed with this. Like I think about it all the time teaching parents and teachers and really anyone who doesn't have the lens that island, I love teaching everybody how sensory processing impacts and learning and behavior. 

And there's a lot of hidden things about sensory processing that can contribute to learning and behavior that we don't always think about. And I have a 4 and a half year old who is a neurodivergent kid. She has anxiety and sensory processing disorder. So I just really have a soft spot in my heart for parents who are going through this, particularly the ones who are no stranger to 45 minute meltdowns when I coach parents through it, I love saying like I'm in that club too. I get it and it makes me feel like I'm a better parent coach and OT because I lived through it too. So there's already that added connection and I have a lot more practical solutions that I know is doable. 

I cringe when I think of some of the things I used to recommend to parents in my early OT days when I was like a brand new, like straight out of grad school, like textbook learning grad school, like telling the parents what to do and I was like now I'm looking back and like I would have, I would have never done that as like a parent of like a brand new kid. So anyway, yeah. 

Laura: I want to just highlight this too. So I have one of these kiddos who's had lots of hard times, you know, just lots. And I don't know about you but for me and being in this space in this position of being an expert, supposing, supposedly having all the answers, all of the tools in my toolbox and still having a hard time that can be hard, you know? To be in that place of like, gosh and at the same time it makes me have so much compassion because it's like with all of the well really like wealth of knowledge and resources were still struggling, like it's just sometimes it's just hard.

Laura Petix:  Oh yeah. A 100% and I say that all the time and I find that parents like hearing that like, like I don't know I don't want this to come off weird but like you have to know how comforting it is to know that you have a hard kid too. They're like, that this OT is still having a challenge raising their neurodivergent child and I'm like yes I was that pregnant first time mom was like I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, my kid's gonna hit all the milestones, I'm gonna do all the sensory play. We're going to be like the textbook, like all of this set up right? Like I could program my child. 

If, as the kind of person I am, that would be the person, that would be the child I would want because I'm so I need to be in control of things and I do things by the book, I study everything. And so I was like this is what's going to happen, this is how it's gonna work out and guess what it did not work out that way. Because she has her own personality, her temperament, she has her own brain wiring that I, even as much as I try to shape and mold our daily experiences, I have no effect on how her brain perceives the world and how she learns and communicates. And that's something that I am now very comfortable and have come to terms with and I love helping parents get to that part of their journey, even if it means using myself as an example. Like, hey look, I'm an OT. And I still struggle with this and I have no shame in admitting that. 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And there's this piece of relief that, like, okay, wait a second, it must not be my fault. There's nothing wrong with me, and there's actually nothing wrong with my child. They are just wired a little bit differently and they need different supports and they need different inputs coming in, they need different, you know, different environment that helps them feel safe and stable. Right? 

Laura Petix: Exactly. Exactly. 

Laura: Okay, so let's dig into that a little bit because a lot of the parents I work with have these intense spirited kids who are who reactive or the book I was reading most recently by Mona Delahooke - Brain-Body Parenting and she calls them…

Laura Petix: I haven't read it yet, but I heard it, it's amazing.

Laura: It’s so it's so good, you'll love it. But she calls these, these are kids with unstable platforms that just kind of get thrown into fight or flight so easily. Yeah, I love that phrasing the unstable platforms, I just love it. And so for lots of the parents that I have, you know, I can tell immediately when I just when I hear them talking about their kids that their kids would benefit from OT. But why don't you just give me a quick rundown around how is OT helpful for these kids who maybe have a sensory processing disorder or has a neurodivergent. What is, what is it that supports them? 

Laura Petix: Yes. Yeah. So I just want to quickly, I also want to mention one thing that you said from Mona Delahooke book that reminds me of something that my husband said at the time. Just if this resonates with other parents and I hear parents say this all the time when you have a spirited child or a child who easily gets dysregulated and just goes and goes into meltdown mode. Like quote out of nowhere, right? My husband said one day he's like I just don't get it like how can she go from like 0 to 100. 

And I'm like because she's not at zero, she's not hovering at 75 every single day, like she does not get down to zero and that is the best with no context, like that's all I say and parents like yes that is exactly my child. She is not a zero. She is always hovering, her nervous system is always kind of, at this like high alert state. So it doesn't take much for her to pass that threshold into dysregulation state. So how OT helps with that. So if you have a child who is always hovering around 75, always seems to be like - on alert, cautious, fearful, easy to react to certain things. So what happens in their brain is the brain has developed like a shortcut pathway to dysregulation. 

Usually in a context that is repeated for them. That has maybe some sensory triggers for them. Right? So let's take the example of the bathroom. There's a lot of things that happen in a bathroom that might be stressful for kids with sensory processing challenges, particularly sensory sensitivities, right? So there's, if they are sensitive to like teeth brushing or hair brushing or washing their face or taking a bath or washing their hair or going to the potty, all of that happens in the context of the bathroom. And so what may start as a sensory sensitivity, like those things trigger their nervous system to have this big emotional fight or flight reaction that for neurotypical people feels like either out of nowhere or like exaggerated, right? We don't really get it over. Like, what are you talking about? It's not even that loud or it doesn't smell that bad or it's not even you're not even wet, like it was a splash of water. 

So that triggers their brain into fight or flight because they have a different threshold for getting dysregulated. They have a lower threshold for getting dysregulated. And the more often that happens, the brain starts to create an association, a learned pathway to dysregulation and it does that sort of to like protect your body where it's like, hey, every time we're in this bathroom it makes our heart race, my pupils are dilated, I start sweating, I don't feel good in my body, I feel stressed out. Let's not go in here again. Every time we go in here, we're gonna have a fight or flight reaction to keep us out of this bathroom because it does not feel good to the nervous system. That is what the brain is automatically doing. But on the outside, this is your child avoiding bath. This is your child running away. This is your child screaming, putting their hands over their ears. This is them screaming, bloody murdered while you're trying to just like wash their face and you're scared your neighbors are going to call CPS because it's so loud and you're like, I swear I'm just trying to clean my child. 

So the brain creates these like shortcut pathways to dis regulation. And it does so in a way that sometimes it's like, okay, you keep going to the bathroom. So now to save us from even going there, we're gonna start, the brain is starting, it's gonna start triggering this regulation. Maybe when we see the bathroom or when we hear mom say it's gonna be bath time. Now, when we hear the word bath time, our brain is creating stronger and stronger pathways to dysregulation. 

So what OT does either through parent coaching, like what I do online or within person, sensory into both of these are a great supplemental way to work on this. Is OT help your child create pathways to regulation? So the way that I like to visualize it is if like if you were taking like a shortcut route through this like wild field and there's like there's weeds and grass is really tall pieces of foliage and all that, and you're trying to take a shortcut to get somewhere and there's no path. So you're like pushing your way through right? That's like the first way that your brain is creating like the first neuron connection to this right to regulation when you're in the bathroom. But the more often you take the same path, what happens is you create this little paved pathway in that field because you take it every single day over and over. 

So now your brain has created this pathway to regulation and OT does that by like I said coaching parents on how to set up their environment at home and how to offer their kids more positive associations with a certain environment or context, and the clinic if you work with an OT with sensory integration, they are actively teaching your child how to experience moments of regulation. Not so much in the context because they're not always gonna be like in the bathroom where they're not gonna have the same triggers in the clinic but it's truly just giving your child's brain more experience in your child's nervous system. More like game time of like, this is what regulation feels like bringing them a little below 75 if we're going to 0-100 scale right? Their body, their nervous system like oh this is regular, this is what it's supposed to feel like. And the more that the brain and nervous system feel that way. Hopefully it can then lead to like less meltdowns or less intense meltdowns and just more times of regulation. 

Laura: Yeah. Okay so I love this. All right so there's kind of two directions Laura, that I want to go here. So I'm making a mental note for myself to come back to the one that I'm not going to take to that path that I'm not gonna take. So I'm gonna take right now. Is that a lot of my clients and community members who have gotten their child into OT, it seems to me when I hear from them about their experiences that they're not fully accessing the wealth of knowledge that OT’s have. That they're not fully accessing, that they don't necessarily even know how to fully access the experience of OT over these past two years. A lot of the OT has been happening virtually. Which I can't even imagine when, when my daughter was an OT. We were in person in the room, a parent was always with their, and was heavily involved in the O. T. It was crucial for us to be involved and I know that that's been really difficult over these past two years. 

If you had anything for I guess, any recommendations or ways for parents to really engage with their OTs and work with them. Start partnering with them with their child's OTs. Do you have any like kind of jumping off points? Because I feel like there are a lot of the parents I talked to there is this kind of almost like a lack of understanding of what is happening in the OT session with their child. And how it translates to things at home and it sounds like you're very you know, I know all OTs have different experience and training. And I'm sure some are better at others than like really walking a parent through things. So, if that you are a parent who doesn't have one of those OTs who's walking through, you through it, or you haven't had access to because you haven't been in person because that's just the reality for these past two years. This is the longest question ever. I'm sorry. 

Laura Petix: I know I love the way you're explaining it because setting it up perfectly.

Laura: Okay, good.  Yeah, so for those parents, how can, what can they be doing and saying to really partner with their OT and really understand what the OT is doing for their kid? And how they can start applying those principles and really starting to embody them and build them into their parenting? Because that was the thing that I think helped us so much in my child's OT experience and I'm happy to talk about that too. But go ahead. 

Laura Petix: Yeah. So, the first thing I want to say is I always preface this with saying that I am a private clinic OT. So I work in sensory integration clinics and it is not affiliated with a hospital like outpatient setting, and we are not affiliate, like we help parents get reimbursed by like providing them an invoice but we don't take insurance’s directly, right? And so that frame, that already like mindset already kind of shapes how I… the freedom that I have as an OT and I know from speaking to parents who have different, have their kids in different settings or from colleagues who are in different settings. I know that not all settings are able to do what I'm going to share with you, but if but it's always worth asking. Right? So I will already separate if your child in school based OT that is a whole different layer of red tape and things to get through just to like email your OT and get a response back. Like they can't even access their emails sometimes outside of school, like wifi. Like they have a lot more steps to get in contact with them. Right? 

Laura: So, that’s such good contextual information, thinking that you are…

Laura Petix: Exactly! Because I get that too. I'll try to email someone, an OT that I'm collaborating with on a client that we both see and I will get an email back like this weekend, I don't have access to my email because I have to be within school whatever. And I'm like oh that, that makes sense. So that already is a piece. So, and then the other part is even if you're just if you're in an OT clinic with your child, but you are more of like an affiliate, you're in a clinic that's affiliated with the hospital or you're going through insurance. I know that these clinics typically have really really high caseload numbers and are also very like… they can seem quick with the information because they have to get to the next kid. Like right away there's like no time in person. So I kind of get that. 

Laura:  Can we just have like a moment for, of compassion for these providers. I mean and I know that as parents, we're so focused on our individual child and it can be so frustrating. But for these providers are our kids therapists and OTs. They've been living through this, this time too. They've been seeing all of the stuff that the kids are living through, right? We get just this little picture of just our child often who have been in very privileged positions. You know, been very well protected from the just the trauma of these past two years and they're still these kids are still having big reactions and then they have been exposed to just so much more. You know, I just, just a moment of compassion for all the works that your colleague…  

Laura Petix: Yes. When I hear those, when I hear colleagues of mine going through that, oh that really seems like a big stress to your, like nervous system, just talking about your nervous system. Like daily waking up stress and the level of productivity that they are held to by their companies by the insurance where like literally down to the minute they have where they don't even have time to go to the bathroom. Like there's a lot of stuff going in there. So for parents to have compassion for that, but so I'm going to share with you some ways that I have been privileged enough to be able to afford my clients and offer to them because I would say in these private clinics we have a lot more free reign. We are not limited by a lot of insurance parameters on my goals or like only 12 visits. Like there's a lot of like I can work on so many things, but again, it's a privileged setting to work in for myself and for the families who are able to come because a lot of them pay out of pocket. So I understand that that is definitely an aspect to this, but… 

So something that, what I feel like wasn't stressed a lot in grad school when I went for an OT. I don't know if it's different now. Maybe times are changing maybe even after Covid but they did not stress a lot. The importance of having regular one on one like parents OT conference consultations, coaching sessions. They did not stress that. We talked about like the parent coaching model but they never were like you should be doing this every month or every three months or things like that. And what I found was when I was more full time in the clinic pre covid. I like you or like my colleagues, like after each session I would spend like five minutes debriefing with them. But there were two things wrong with that. One was I was like my mind was like split like okay I gotta clean up that room, get ready for this kid and try to go pee. But I really want to spend time telling his mom how great her son did this but it comes out of me spewing so we did this obstacle course with vestibular input inappropriate stuff. Like I'm splurging all these things that I remember she and I did have this conversation about it. But it was like six months ago when I first evaluated her son and we sat down for the parent conference but like I don't…  Why would she remember that each and every time?

Laura: It’s overwhelming as a parent. 

Laura Petix: It’s overwhelming. So that's like one piece, the speed of it. The second piece was the kid is always there like next to us right? And so there's that distraction of them ready to go home, Mom let's go or mom look what I did and they want to be part of the conversation. But then there's the other piece of like not talking about the kid in front of the kids so then I can't be fully candid about things that were hard for them. So I'm like sugarcoating things and I can't really tell mom like hey we should look out for this thing I noticed like… and so then I would spend outside hours emailing parents and then that was just like a, like not balanced lifestyle for me as well. 

So once Covid hit I heard a lot of pros about teletherapy was that the OTs finally got to really spend time coaching parents or parents really got to sit in and notice the language that OTs use. The really creative ways we get to motivate kids through tasks that they would otherwise refuse. And what I noticed was that, so during Covid that's when I started. I wasn't seeing kids, I was in between clinics and I just started focusing on coaching parents and telling them how they can support their kids at home and even without their kids seeing me in person they were still making progress. So then fast forward to when things got more manageable and now I'm back in the clinic less time. 

Now I've made it a point to when I evaluate a family, I say I have that first parent evaluation and I say, hey, this is what I noticed going on. We're gonna work on it this way. So explaining explicitly what they're going to see in the session. Yes what you are here for feeding for handwriting, but we are going to be spending time doing obstacle courses playing games on the floor. It's going to look a lot like playing, it is playing, but I promise you we're working on skills. And then I say I recommend having parent consults, parent coaching once a month for at least the first 3 to 6 months depending on how severe or how much information I need to give them. 

And I've noticed such a huge impact from the parents' understanding, from my confidence, like not worrying. Like you know, I know if any OTs or other therapists are listening like there's a, there's this like hidden stress sometimes when I'm playing with the kid and if I didn't get to connect with that parent and they like come and observe the last five minutes. I feel so much pressure of them thinking like I'm not doing anything because we're like sitting and talking about like dolls and doing pretend play. But I'm like I promise this is really impactful. So now I feel way less stressed and I feel more confident and then the parents feel more confident. It's just all around great. So for parents, if you can ask whatever setting you're in, it doesn't help her to ask if there can be set aside time for one on one, uninterrupted parent consultations within your therapist caseload. 

Now to be creative with this, if your therapist is like I don't have time to add that to my caseload, right? Then I have sometimes and I have again, I have the flexibility to do that. But some, I know colleagues who are just like back to back to back. I've had parents substitute. So if your kid is going once a week for the fall like a full months or four visits, I would have parents substitute one of those four visits to be just parent and OT and then parents like, but wait, aren't they not going to… like I don't want them to miss a session. I'm like trust me the the value you're gonna get from a parent coaching one on one is going to supplement or even make it better your experience even if your child is not getting it, getting that direct OT.

Laura: Because you're only together one, you know, one hour a week if you're doing weekly sessions and there's so many other hours in the time in between sessions. Yeah, so I really love that emphasis and so being able to ask for that, you know, there were times two we were able to do like a half session with my daughter and then a half session with just us, where we were, this was during Covid. So we were at a park doing sessions, we were doing outside park and so she would just go and play and we would say… 

Laura Petix: I love that. So you could be super creative with the settings and doing it. You just have to ask. And it's interesting because since I've been talking about this like the current clinic at I went into when I started working there, I was like I am happy to work here, but I was just so you know, this is what I'm going to be recommending to all my families, like I have to make parents part of it. And then the clinic director, she was like that's amazing. And so now she's having all of the other therapists offer that. And then there's other… my colleagues that I have instagram that are other OT. So like I started doing that in my practice too and it's made such a difference. like it's not something that's standard, but once they start offering… 

So, so when I'm saying that because when parents ask OTs, they might be like - oh we don't do that because they've never done it, but they've never considered it will be like, are you willing to like substitute a session? But knowing that parents again coming in like this is definitely one of those privileged pieces. So you probably you will have to pay out of pocket for it sometimes if you're going through an insurance plan and probably won't be covered by insure unless there's a some insurance is great with parent coaching, but just so you know that that would be like an typically an added charge added fee to it, but it's definitely worth asking if they could do phone calls, zoom calls in person, some uninterrupted time to talk at length about your child's progress, their strengths, things that they're noticing, things you're noticing at home and this gives the OT chances to coach you on specific things at home. Because that's the number one thing I hear from parents when they come to me for virtual coaching is there like, yeah, we're in OT, but they don't really help us with home stuff. They just like work with my kid and they don't help me deal with the meltdowns. I’m like, oh they should be helping you with the meltdowns. Like you should ask them, I'm happy to coach you through it. I love that. But also it's probably more bang for your buck if you get, if you work with the OT who sees your child person and knows them. So definitely ask. 

Laura: Okay, so I love that. It never hurts to ask and I really, I think that that's so important. So kind of, can you give us… what…  I think in my experience with OT with my oldest daughter who's nine now and she graduated from OT when she was seven. So she went from, when she was 5 to 7 and it was wonderful. I think the thing that helped the most in terms of OT for her, was her therapist very carefully helping her tune into her body and listen to what her body was communicating and to what it needed. And so we would go through various, I mean she had a lot of reflex integration issues, a lot of…  she didn't crawl so she had a lot of crossing the midline stuff that needed to be happen to. But most of it was spent kind of engaging different sensory systems doing different things and figuring out does this activate you or does this regulate you? 

Does this you know, does this make you feel more calm? Does this make you feel more alert and really tuning in? And I think I wasn't expecting that that would be part of OT. You know what I mean? And I'm curious if you can… So the other issue that I see in my communities right now is that people who know their kids need OT and they cannot get in. And because it's the wait lists are so long. And so like, what are some of the things we can be doing as parents at home with our kids when we know something's going on for our kids and we feel very ill equipped to help them. What are some of the things we can be doing? 

Laura Petix: Yeah so first of all it sounds like your OT, was an amazing OT because that's definitely that is A plus gold standard, real good OT-ing right there because it's not just doing onto the child is not just playing with them. But it's really take then you bridge the gap. That steps towards self regulation so that your daughter knows what works for her body. And this is where I really love highlighting like what's that quote? It's like, if you give a man a fish, 

Laura: He will eat for a day. 

Laura Petix: If you teach a man of ill.. what that thing? Yes that ,that whole thing that's what I focus on with parents because they're like what can I do to regulate my child? She's hyperactive.What can I do to regulate my child? She is having meltdowns? And I'm like well it really depends because whatever regulates me might not regulate your daughter, what might regulate your daughter, might not regulate your son. And it’s everybody's another system. It’s different. So you really do need to know how to be a sensory detective, which is what I call or so, in my parent program I talked about becoming sensory detectives and so there are some general sensory inputs that are pretty universally regulating mostly. And I was like tread lightly there because obviously everybody is different but it's about… So that's heavy work. It’s like any input that's to your muscles and tendons and joints anytime you're chewing, pushing, jumping, carrying all of that input to your muscles and tendons and joints is highly regulating to the nervous system. No matter what kind of sensory threshold you have, it's pretty universally calming. Just like deep breaths are those are the two that are like, start here, right? And so…

Laura: This is one of the reasons why I think runners love running so much. Like runners, who are intense runners. You pound the pavement. I’m like you guys are sensory seekers…

Laura Petix: Sensory seekers or people that go to the gym every day and lift and they, and they're like, I don't feel good unless they do that. I'm like, that's great, I wish I had that sensory profile, I don't have that one, so that's amazing. But parents always ask like, is my kid going to grow out of this? I'm like, they might not grow out of it, but they will adapt their lifestyle. Like they might be the person who wakes up at five in the morning to make sure that they get their yoga running working out and not to be a fitness person, but because it feels good for their nervous system. 

So they might, or they might grow up and be like a skydiver because they're such a sensory seeker. So parents to notice what you think regulates your child. When I say, regulate, like, what do you notice is most calming for your child do? is it when they move and they swing a lot, then you notice like wow like they were like sitting all through dinner super quiet and like had conversations they weren't just regulated. I wonder if I had to do with the hour of swinging they did before or today was a swim day. After swim they seem to always be super regulated. Or I noticed when my child is having a meltdown like the only thing that calms her down is when I'm hugging her and humming or something and so you're trying to take little clues and then you can try to categorize like is it a touch close body thing? Is it a movement thing? And then try to find different activities that can target that. 

Again, this sometimes needs some guidance from an OT. But even if you can't work directly with an OT, there's a lot of information on instagram. I have a lot of stuff on instagram to dive into the sensory regulation stuff but my point is whatever like, Pinterest list you print out of. Like if you type in heavy work there's probably gonna be some free thing of like 101 ways to do heavy work.

Laura: Can I tell you when I started recommending heavy work to parents seven years ago there was nothing. There was one article and an OTs website with list of heavy work activities. 

Laura Petix: It's great but it's like it can be overwhelming and so what I like parents to know is that like not all heavy work. Not all regulation activities are created equal. Like oh I found this 101 list I'm gonna do 101 of these every single day. It's - take that list and I would narrow it down like what do you think is something your child might like to do, like oh I see them crawl all the time, maybe they would like this army crawling like activity or whatever. And then once you do it, then that's when you really become the detective and you can involve your child if they have speaking abilities and and they have the other cognitive abilities to help dissect what's happening like your OT was helping your daughter. 

So you do the activity and then you ask them. How did that make your heart feel? How did that make your body feel? I noticed you started moving a lot slower. I noticed the volume of your voice got down to my level and it wasn't super loud or opposite. I noticed your body started moving really fast and silly. Maybe that's not such a good calming activity. What do you think? So you can really like try these out and involve your child in the process if they can, but really for you to observe how is this regulating the body? 

The other thing I want to mention to parents whenever you're trying like a sensory strategy heavy work activity or deep breathing activity is like if you try it once and like it feels like it “doesn't work” or didn't “do anything”. I'm putting a lot of air quotes here. I usually recommend to parents to try something. Like for a couple of weeks consistently before you truly notice anything, because it takes kids sometimes that initial time to get over a new routine where they might be like fighting back to it, or the novelty of it is really exciting and then they do great with it. But then after a while, like, well it doesn't work anymore. So I say give it a couple of weeks before you decide if a sensory strategy is really working for you.

Laura:  There's a piece of it, like of the “do’s” too, like write, you know, doing it over time. It builds those neural connections and it helps with those things. And then there's also like, I don't know for if this is true for all folks, but for my child swinging to a certain point is really groundin., But if she goes past it and gets too much, then it's, she's wild. You know? And so helping her, like hone in on like what is the limit, where is that boundary? And you to like, as a parent noticing and helping them notice. I think, well, you know, they're gonna own this body forever, right? This is their body. They're gonna have this nervous system forever. And they need to learn how to use it for their best highest self. 

Laura Petix: Yeah so that's why I spend most of my time teaching parents how to notice signs of this regulation because I can't tell you… like well how long should I be doing heavy work? Like well it depends what the heavy work is? what your child is? how much…  like there's so many it depends, it depends. I don't… you won't see me give like a full list of like here's a sensory diet. If you have a sensory seeker here's what you should do. That is not what I do. I give like ideas of how to structure certain activities but it's really your job as a parent. And maybe in conjunction with an OT to help craft a list of things that might work for your particular child. And then you really do have to sit and observe and it's a constant re analysis of what is working what might not work noticing other patterns and context that might be contributing to that. Like while swinging works on Monday but not on Fridays, why? Oh well because on Friday she also has gymnastics. She also has swim, it's half day at school that we do the water park. Like there's a lot that goes into it. It's never just a one size fits all thing, for sure. 

Laura: I love that. The individualizing pieces of it. Alright so you have a course that where you support parents with figuring some of these things out for those of us who don't have access to OTs, or to awesome OTs like you, who are really going to be supporting our kiddos. 

Laura Petix: So I have two courses that are kind of helpful. So one is a, just a very like crash course mini course. If you are kind of starting out as a parent and you're still trying to figure out your child's behaviors or you do know your child has a sensor, has a sensory challenge but you're like - oh,  whenever they hit their brother, I can't tell like is that a behavior, is that a sensory thing? Like what is this? Are they doing it on purpose or is this some other thing? There's usually that debate like what is going on here? And yes and I love when parents are asking that that means you're already like step one is already like curious about the behavior. You're not just like jumping to a conclusion, but it does take some like troubleshooting and taking things apart. 

So I have this course called sensory is behavior by the time this podcast is out, it will be live. So you can go to the OT butterfly dot com slash behavior and that's where I really talk about like 10 really common childhood behaviors. And I brain dumped all the potential reasons why it could be a sensory trigger and I could and I bring them all the potential reasons why it's not a sensory trigger that includes no need for a parent connection. Language challenges, cognitive abilities, all of those things and then giving you some general ideas on how to support a sensory behavior versus a non sensory behavior. 

Again, I never go into too much detail and these like widespread courses because it's not a one size fits all. So if you're looking for like a one side and oh, not one side. If you're looking for more guided support for particular, like very unique behavior or something that's happening, I offer one on one coaching which is the OT butterfly dot com slash parent, consult one word, where I can really talk through all of the nuance to it. But then the other, the last offer that I have that's really helpful for parents is very niche specific if you have a child who is sensory sensitive. So they have a hard time with clothes. This is my daughter. Like the feel of socks, the feel of like seems the feel of the way the pants fit jackets and any of that or if they are a picky eater or if they're sensitive to any of the grooming things. I kind of talked about earlier in the bathroom, like brushing hair, washing hair, taking a bath, nail clipping, haircutting. If they're sensitive to sound or sensitive, too messy play. All of those things I focus on in my parent program called the sensory wise solutions program. And it's an online, it's a course with a group coaching. 

So this is where I can give you, because I'm focusing on very specific sensitivity to bathroom. I can give exactly what you should do and some ideas to tailor it for your kids and there's group coaching there as well. So that one enrolls a few times a year, the next time I'm opening, it is probably in June, but if you want to know more, you can always just go to the Ot Butterfly dot com and everything will be there or find me on instagram and I will happily guide you in the right to resource. But a couple I want to mention to free sources, resources for parents who want to just find out more. So one of my favorite ones is if you're curious what sensory sensitivity really looks like more fleshed out, I have a checklist for that. So you can go to the OT Butterfly dot com slash checklist and to see if your child is sensory sensitive or if it is like leaning that way and at least gives you kind of like talking points to bring up to professionals if you want to talk about your child's behaviors. And then, since I did mention heavy work and if you want to learn more about that, I have a freebie called who needs heavy work. So it talks about like the different behaviors that would benefit from extra heavy work and then some general ideas of what that is and that's the OT butterfly dot com slash heavy work. I'll have to make sure that that's the right thing. I'll send you the link for sure. But yeah, so there's lots of stuff out there for parents to get started if you're in that long, long wait list for OT, which I know it's just getting…

Laura:  I'm so glad that there's resources out there for folks. Can I ask you one question? And this is maybe like a professional, professional question. So, but you all get to listen to it because I know we're wrapping up, you've got to go to a session. So when you were talking for, I got completely like, just down in like a thought wormhole when you were talking about, is this a sensory thing or is this a behavioral thing? And I just want to make sure I'm thinking about things, right? Because I'm not an expert on, like, on sensory stuff. I've done a lot of self educating. I work with a lot of folks who are, you know, I work on the parenting side of things and you're definitely the expert on the kind of the censoring what's going on in the, for the child from that perspective. And so when I'm, when I'm thinking about things like, you know, if a kid is refusing, you know, you're driving on the highway and the kid is refusing to put the window up because, you know, it's rushing on their face, right? That's clearly a sensory thing. But if the kiddo is, you know, dysregulated and hitting their sibling, so I'm just checking to make sure I'm thinking about this, right? 

If they are doing that, it could be that they have this need for connection right then, or they have some jealousy and they need some emotional support to help them be regulated. But in my experience with my kiddo, it could also be that they've had this other, this whole day that was just challenging for them because of their unique neural wiring where just existing, like literally walking through the world is harder for them and their platform is already at that kind of at that 75 we were talking about. And so it can, it can be this, I don't know this muddy thing to tease apart. And so even if that behavior when she's hitting her sister is really about getting connection, right? There's also other sensory things at play there, is that right? Am I thinking about this, right? 

Laura Petix: That's, that's right, That's exactly right. And that's, that hitting is such a calm. I mean, all behaviors are more complex than what we see obviously, but hitting is one that I get asked a lot and like, you're right, there's that emotional component to it. And then if your child is maybe more prone to dysregulation, there could be like this build up of things throughout their day, sensory inputs, routine changes, things that just were like thrown at their nervous system that now they're just in no place to be in control of it and it's all just spilling out. And so in that case it could be a sensory thing and an emotional need, peace. It could be both right. 

And the thing that I like to say about sensory triggers is that, it doesn't always have to be such a clear cut, like you said like window or like the toilet flushing and then that happens and then cry and then it's done like, oh that was clear that the toilet. It can be a build up, like you're talking about, it can be a build up from that day, it could be a build up of weeks, it could be right, and it could just be like, maybe even if a kid like didn't sleep well the night before. I sometimes still consider that a sensory issue. If they have interception and challenges with their internal states and their nervous system is even more dysregulated and they are a dysregulated child. Like more often I could still consider that part of it. So it really is complex. And then the other piece is sometimes the actual act of hitting gives feedback, appropriate corrective feedback. 

So it's a tricky way that it actually feels good to their body even if they know they like should not. So that's the piece, right, as parents. But you know, you're not supposed to hit but either like one, it feels good to my body. Two, it felt good to like express that emotion. Three, I really have no control over my body, right? There's like a lot of things that go into it and that first step of noticing that there's so many different reasons for this gives you an ounce more, I hope, of compassion, to be able to make it through to respond in a more intentional way to your child. Although I know I'm like the first to admit, I'm not always perfect with the way that I respond to my child's behaviors, but it can help when you have the right mindset most of the time. 

Laura: Absolutely. And you know, all of us parents, we know from experience that the knowing and the doing, like the knowing the right thing to do and the doing of the right thing, are two completely different.

Laura Petix: Even for us. Yes, exactly. So it's like, so when parents are like, well she knows not to hit, I'm like, well, you know, not to yell and you still yell. They're like, oops, and I'm like, I mean I do too, but it's just like pointing it out that we are human. Exactly. Exactly. 

Laura: And if it's confusing to us to like think about piecing it all out with our fully developed brains. I just, I can just imagine how confusing it is for kids to have to be in this dysregulated state and then have these impulses and emotions boiling to the surface with very few skills and experience.

Laura Petix: And executive functioning. Like that's not even developed until you're like mid twenties. Why are we not talking about that? 

Laura: Yes, exactly. I feel so much the same, So much compassion to parents and kiddos and wonderful. Thank you Laura for this time you spent with us. I really appreciate you helping me shine some light on some of these. 

Laura Petix: I'm so happy too. I'm so happy too. It fills my cup to be able to talk about this and knowing more people are hearing about OT maybe for the first time or feeling reinvigorated to go back to their child's OT with more ideas or feeling more confident at home. I just want parents to feel like more empowered really to either child's best advocate. So.. 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Parents are amazing. Don't you love them? I love, I love working, getting to work with parents. 

Laura Petix: I used to, I used to be afraid of working with parents when I wasn't one. And every time I had a parent console I'd be so nervous and like, oh my gosh, she doesn't like me or like, I don't know how to tell her, but now it's my favorite. It's my absolute favorite. In fact, even when I started the OT butterfly, I used to only talk to therapists and they're like, can you give parents? And I'm like, no, I only talk to a therapist, my audience is there. I'm giving them… Because I was scared to talk to parents even as a parent, but now I'm like, once I open the door I'm like, oh you are my people and I connect with you and it feels it's so rewarding to know that like you've given parents these tools for a lifetime so that you can set them up for success. So they can set their kids up for success. I love it. 

Laura: It's beautiful. Thank you. It's a gift. Thank you for working through that and starting to share because we need it. 

Laura Petix: Oh, I love it. I'm glad that I'm on this path now. I would never, I would never change that. 

Laura: Beautiful. Thanks for being here Laura, thank you so much. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

Episode 138: Creating Success for Children w/ Learning Differences with Victoria Waller

It can be so hard to see our children struggle to learn new skills, especially in school, where learning differences often manifest as behavioral challenges. In so many cases when our kids are young, the advice is to wait and see, and trust that they will do it when they are ready, but sometimes we get to a point where we know our child needs more support than they are getting, and we need help figuring out what that needs to look like.

To help me in this conversation, I brought in Dr. Victoria Waller. She shares with parents, teachers, and therapists her proven techniques for helping any child to discover their natural love of learning, overcome their particular challenges, and succeed in school. Her methods are designed and proven to draw out the singular genius within your child, whether they’re just a reluctant reader or have a diagnosis such as ADHD or other learning differences.

If your child has trouble reading, can’t sit still in class, or doesn’t feel like they can participate, then this episode is for you! Plus, there are some great tips for every parent about recognizing your child's unique interests and supporting them in exploring them! For example, in the episode she recommends a weekly news magazine for kids. We decided to check it out and my kids absolutely love it!

Here's a summary of what we talked about:


If you want to learn more from Dr. Waller, you can check out her website www.drvictoriawaller.com and follow her on Twitter and Instagram.

RESOURCES:

The Week Junior: a weekly subscription magazine that reports news directly to kids ages 8-14 and gives Gen Alpha the information they need to form and express their own opinions while also educating them about current events. (There’s a counterpart for adults, too! Check it out here: theweek.com)

What to Expect When You’re Expecting by Heidi Murkoff: a book that answers all your baby questions

PROMISE PROJECT by Dana Buchman: a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping underserved children with learning disabilities (LD) get the support they need to learn

Straight Talk about ADHD in Girls: How to Help Your Daughter Thrive by Stephen Hinshaw: a guide that provides vital information and advice to help you understand and meet your daughter's needs

Newsela: Meaningful classroom learning and instructional materials for every student.

TheSpanglerEffect by Steve Spangler: a YouTube Channel that gives do-it-yourself experiments to amaze friends and make science learning fun.


TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of the balanced parent podcast, we're gonna be talking about how we can support our kiddos who have learning differences with an expert Dr Victoria Waller. Victoria, I'm so glad to have you on, on the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are and what you do.

Dr. Waller: Okay good. Well I've been teaching children with learning differences for over 40 years, which is a long time. And I always called my children, they have learning differences. I've never used the word disabilities and I think that's very important in this podcast. My children all have abilities. They don't have disabilities and I think now, we are seeing that they're geniuses of our time like Anderson Cooper, Richard Branson, Simone Biles, the astronaut Scott Kelly and many more. I have found every child can learn and become successful and happy. If we diagnose them early, we get them help when they need it, most importantly, and I want everybody who has a child that they have a gut feeling about, something's a little off. They have to teach them with their strengths and passions. 

Too often, we talk about what's wrong with children and we should be talking about what's right with them. It's interesting because I originally wrote a 360-page book, which is really bizarre, because a principal at one of the schools where I was working with the child individually at home and she said, you have to write a report after every time you see him. And I said, okay and every time I'd write a report. She'd say this is a book, I hear it, this is a book. And so I went, I thought, oh this is a book. And I took it to an editor of fabulous editor Suzanne Kingsbury and she radishes Vicky. It's wonderful. The stories are fantastic. It's wonderful who's gonna buy it. I said, well parents who have kids with learning differences, maybe they have attention issues. She said, but it's a story about one boy. 

Parents want to know what to do with their child. Every book my parent gets, that says ADHD. They tell me this, they buy them all, they open them up, there's a picture of a brain, close the book. And she said this has to be a book. Who do you want it to be for? Well I want to help parents and teachers too, and neuropsychologists, the people that test these children. This book is for everybody. Well, I don't see it, it's a wonderful book, but I don't know who would get help from it. I put it away on my desk, my shelf and within two weeks two things happened. Knock on the door and I opened the door and I see this very tall, six ft two kid but he's not a kid, scruffy, you know, hair. And he goes Dr. Waller, it's me Dexter. And I went, oh my goodness Dexter. 

Dexter was seven years old. He was in my reading class, special reading class and I was doing claymation. I was very involved with the Walt Disney company. They let me bring my children to every event they had and he could do, he would build the claymation characters, he would make the actual setup, he would tell everybody what to do. He was seven years old and the principal said, he doesn't told the mother, maybe he'll work at Mcdonald's one day. He's not very smart. And I said you have to get him help, you have to get him tested. It has to be at a school where he is, you know, understood and he has to see somebody like me all the time outside of school. And he said it's me Dexter and he said, I did what you said. I said what? He said, you told my mom I should follow my passions and my strength. So I did! I said Dexter, what are your passions and strengths? Trees! I said what? He got a master's degree from Yale, another master's degree from Clark. He had just received a doctorate and he wanted to talk to me about it and he was going to go for his postdoc on trees. 

I said okay, it's the environment. It's trees. Our trees helped build, you know, bad areas up so that it's nice and believe me, I never thought. And now, like if you look up his name, he is like the major person in trees in the country and he has articles and he has everything and that was just interesting. I thought to myself gee that's really interesting and then another child comes. 

And I had started working with kids as a therapist and teaching. And the mother comes to the door hysterical crying at two in the afternoon. I said what's wrong? What's wrong? They want, they want me to test my child. There's something wrong with her brain. We have to go to a brain doctor. And I went, no, no, no hold on hold on. And all of a sudden I realized I said there's nothing wrong with his brain. There's a lot right with his brain. He was seven years old. He couldn't read or write but he could tell you about every animal. You could ask him about any animal. He could tell you 20 facts about that animal. And all of a sudden I thought that's what my book has to be about. It has to be about what… you know the pregnancy book, It's called “What to Expect When You're Expecting?” And it takes you on a journey every month of what's going to happen in your pregnancy. And I thought that's what I have to do. My book has to be a book, telling my parents what to expect. And it starts out with the very first one is “He's not here.” She is not gonna snap out of it. A paranoid has a gut feeling. The other parent says oh they'll be fine, they're not going to snap out of it. You've got to get them help. So I made my book a step-by-step journey for that parent who has that feeling that something's just a mist and exactly what to do. 

Why there is a neuropsychologist? What do you mean I have to get him a tutor? Do I need an odd therapist? Do I need a teacher? And that's what I did. I made my book different than all books. And Dana Buchman started a fabulous, PROMISES PROJECT in New York where they test, neuropsychologist test, for free. Children from the inner city, which is amazing because those tests are like $7000. And Dana Buchman said my book should be the first book a parent reads and I can tell you about the journey if you want me to. Step by step. So you understand. 

Laura: Yeah, so I love the step-by-step approach in your book. And it has, you know, when I'm looking at the outline, it has kind of every question that the major questions that I get that I'm on the receiving end and that parents are thinking. But I'm kind of curious about what are some of those things that are happening as a young child enters into schooling that get a parent getting that gut feeling. What are some of those early like warning signs that parents can be on the lookout for or noticing when they see them in their child. That should kind of ping in a parent. What are some of those things?

Dr. Waller: Well I think when they see the child and it really doesn't even have to do with a slow talker, slow walker. It's when you're seeing your child in a setting and the child is either being very hyperactive and can't focus. If you were in let's say the preschool class even at four years old I can go into a class and I see the kid that's running all over and can't really stay focused. And I also see not only boys, I see girls and it's interesting because Stephen Hinshaw has just written a new book that's coming out in a few months and it's girls in ADHD. I see a child quietly not focusing. Those are the ones that the parents are mostly surprised about because they'll go but she sits quietly or he sits quietly. It's inattentive. And every time people say ADHD. Hyperactivity. I have found the student that I get in my private practice, are the kids that have been overlooked because they're quiet. 

I had a student, I had this big tree outside my window. I had him for three years. He was a very quiet and attentive. He would, you know, not be listening. He would be thinking about something else and he said to me after three years he says you know you have an alligator on your tree. I went what? I've been sitting here for 30 years and I love the big tree. And sure enough now whenever I look out the window I see Max's alligator on the tree, because the branches and the bark. But I never noticed it before. But he would just sort of go out. So if you saw that when you were younger you saw a kid going from a child going from thing to thing or a child just sitting there and you called them 27 times and they're not paying attention to you. Although with now, the computer and everything you can do call your child 27 times and they don't reply because they're involved in the computer. But a lot of those things the teachers saying your child just isn't picking up things. They could have speech issues. They could have motor issues. There's many many flags and I think with learning differences the flags could be not noticed because they're a quiet child. 

The children that are hyper and running from thing to thing and can see is still like a motor is going. Parents tend to notice that first. They don't notice the one that's inattentive at. And you'll hear it from a teacher. A good teacher will tell you, you know Susie sitting there, but she's really not, when we tell her to do something, maybe she's not doing it. And any of the things to do. It was funny I sat in a meeting with a very very famous person in LA. I'm in LA. It's very Hollywood. It's not unusual to have, you know, parents of kids. And I said you know he's seven years old and I think it's time you really should get a speech evaluation. He has a list and with the list he's having trouble when he's spelling because he's staying it wrong. So he hears it wrong and he's writing it wrong. And they both looked at me and this was a major person in Hollywood. He said he doesn't have anything like that. And I'm sitting there thinking oh Vicki, what did you do? What… maybe it's a different child. You know, they left, I go running to his classroom. I said that out with me, let's read a little bit. Huge list. But because it was something they always heard. They didn’t really recognize. So sometimes, and it can be a teacher saying something about your child or you can just see like why aren't they? They're so smart. That's what everybody will say.

But my child is smart, he can't have attention issues. One thing doesn't have to do with the other. I have never ever, and this is,I'm old, this is thousands of children I have taught. I have never found a child to not have a passion and a strength, and that's what I used to teach them. A parent came in a couple of months ago and I said what are your child passion, strength? She went well, he likes the computer. I said well is there anything else he's really good at or and she said no, he just likes to be on the computer all the time. Child comes in and said, what do you like to do? He says, oh I love to build with legos. Okay, so the next time he was here, I bought him a little tiny lego thing and I thought I would start out by doing that. Give him a little lego thing to me. And he comes in and he laughs and one minute he puts it together and I said, what kind of legos do you put together? He says are the ones with 10,000 pieces. I said can you read the directions? He says, no. Dr .Waller, I can't read. I just look at the pictures. 

Now, I want to tell you something. Laura, I look at those pictures, there is nothing in my brain that put anything together that has five pieces, let alone 10,000. And then, he knows everything about whales and sharks. But I mean like an encyclopedia, I hooked him up with Michael Packard. Michael Packard was the man lobster fisherman a year ago june. He was lobster fishing like he's been doing for a long time and a whale, put caught him in his mouth. I was fascinated by the whole thing and the whale spit him out. I called Michael Pack, We have google now you can find everybody. And I said this child knows all about whales and sharks. Can he interview you? He said absolutely, we read, I read to him, he couldn't read, I read him every single article on Michael Packer. We looked at videos and he made up questions. I typed up the questions and I knew because he was smart, he was going to remember what he wrote. He read it, maybe he didn't read every, but he knew what questions he was asking. He sat here like an abc interviewer and interviewed Michael on zoom and waited, paused when he gave the answer. It was amazing. And then I typed everything up the questions and the answers and I used that to teach him with. 

Laura: Okay, I want to dive in there, because I think that this is a big premise of your book and something that everybody in my audience wholeheartedly believes in, that all children have unique talents and passions and that finding those natural strengths within them, are kind of the avenue for their growth. This is something that I think we all believe in. But the practicalities of it can be difficult sometimes. So figuring out what those passions and strengths are for your unique child, I think can be hard for parents and for teachers and then figuring out how do we go about supporting our children, learning through those strengths and passions, especially for the families who perhaps don't have access to a wonderful support system like yours or, you know, teachers who maybe are under resourced and have, you know, way too many kids in their classroom to do such individualized instructions. What can we, as parents do in these settings, in these circumstances?

Dr. Waller:  Okay, first of all, you have to know what your child likes, you really do. I taught in the inner city in Detroit. I can't, I'm sorry I can't give teachers a pass when it comes, and that's why my book is for teachers also, so that they understand who these children are. And that they are smart and they can work. And my step by step will help teachers to see, wait a minute, these kids are smart. What can I do for them? When I taught in the inner city in Detroit there were 40 desks. 40 desks, there were no pencils, no books, nothing and that started Vicky Waller begging and borrowing from every person I ever met. I go into stores, I go into toy stores, I got everything. 

The children were supposed to do something like the American revolution. These kids in the inner city of Detroit in the seventies were not, they did not care about the American Revolution. And they said well you could do the principal said well the United States. I said I think that would be good. Let's do the United States. I had the children, I taught them how to write letters and they wrote letters to their relatives who wrote letters. Notice there was no, there was no email. Wrote letters to all their relatives. I got stamps. I got everything donated. Then we put up the whole room became the United States and when they and they all received letters back which was really interesting. A lot of the appearance were from the south relatives and we put the letters up in every state and they learned about States. 

If a teacher, if a parent knows - okay. Even teachers, when they're giving something to do, like whatever they're studying. Maybe this child, an art, this child who did the shark out of clay. He made a shark, of which I've never seen before in my life, unbelievable, with feet sticking out of the mouth because Michael Packard was stuck in there. I think if teachers read my book, if parents read my book, they know, okay. The child's not gonna snap out of it. Okay, how do we get testing? You can get testing in schools, you can get free testing in schools. And I'm telling you, they're as good as a neuropsychologist who costs $7,000. Parents have to accept their child for who they are. If they need medication then they have to accept. That's like if you need medication for maybe you have something wrong with you, you take a little bit of medication. You have to hire the right person. Sometimes, can I tell you? Fine. I have a doctor big deal. Vicky Waller's done it for 100 years. She is a doctor. Guess what Your second grade teacher that your child loves and she's been teaching for 50 years or five years. But she's gifted and loves your child, that's the person you get. So you don't have to have a doctor necessarily. 

You can have the favorite teacher. I had a girl I met the other day, we were sitting around the table and it was very funny. She's 32 and she said, I have learning differences. She said disabilities. And I said, I bet you don't have disabilities, tell me what you do. She's a famous, she dresses Hollywood movie stars. She's not, doesn't have, she didn't think she had any ability. She has plenty of abilities. And she said, you know, I saw my second grade teacher till I was in seventh grade. She said she saved my life. So it doesn't matter. You have to find, hire the right person or you know, to help your child. You have to have books. 

Now there's so many ways to get books online and that you could be reading. And if a child can't read, I had a child couldn't read. His father had read him every book that I ever would even have in my thousands of books in the garage. The father would read to him every night. So the child was getting it. You're being read to also. The team is very important. The parent, the teacher. If there is a tutor you get together. How is the child doing? Communication is really important. And the most important is finding your child's strengths and passions. 

I had a parent, the child loved doing contests and I never had that before. Contest and she had the child enter contests, and now on the computer, you can find a million contests if that's what your child's into and you won't believe it. She made, remember the heart kisses at Valentine's day, and they have little sayings on them? So you had it was a contest and she won like $10,000 or something, and they put her heart in the box hugs and kisses, that was her. So every child has a strength. And I say that because the children who have differences, parents and teachers aren't looking at their strengths. They’re looking at the things they can't do. We need to focus on what they can do, reading, writing, even executive function. When you think about doing something step by step. Watch this boy do 10,000 piece lego, he's doing step by step. He's got it, we just have to transfer and he needs help. 

Laura: So I guess in those situations, you know, one of the things that I get asked about a lot from parents is that, they see their child's unique strengths. They see, you know, they've worked really hard to figure out what approaches work really well for their child and they're mastering it at home. Things are going really well at home, but their child is struggling with a mismatch with a teacher at school. And parents are worried about alienating teachers, about pushing. And so do you have any tips for how to work well with teachers? Particularly teachers who might be a little resistant to doing things a little differently for kids who need it. 

And by the way, I just want to preface this by saying that my entire family, out of my entire family tree, I have one uncle who is not an educator. And so my entire family are our teachers and I adore teachers and respect them so, so much. And I know personally, from personal experience, how taxed they are? How much pressure we put on them? How under-resourced most of their classrooms are. And so I just, I love teachers so much. And at the same time, parents have to learn to work with them and how to get them on their kids side. You know? 

Dr. Waller: Yes. And it's interesting that you're saying that because I really think during the pandemic, it was really difficult for teachers. It was… because I was doing it and I'm not used to, I'm… listen, I had a computer in my classroom in 1975, that's how old I am. There was this thing called the computer and I would go to these reading conventions and one of the places was Borgwarner, which was a computer. They had just started making these things called computers and they were giving them free to teachers to see if they worked. And I had a computer in this little room that was really a hallway that they converted to a reading room for me because I saw about eight kids a time. We were in a reading in the hallway. And you know why I didn't like it? Because the kids wanted to keep being on this computer thing. They didn't want to listen to me and do projects. They just wanted to be on the computer. 

Laura: Of course they did. 

Dr. Waller: I've had computers for a long time. 

Laura: I remember when my mom was, my mom was a special reading teacher, so she had her reading resource classroom and in the summer she would get to bring her computer home. And I remember playing word munchers all summer long. That’s how I learned to read.

Dr. Waller: So I think it’s very and I don’t think, in college you maybe get one book on reading and there's maybe one chapter on a child with learning differences. I find, if the parents have to really get their child involved and if they… but I think what happens is that parents are so undone about what's wrong with my child? That even when they come to me and I interview them, they never tell me all the things that are right about their child. And then I find it out and I build their confidence through that. And I have learned, it's really…  that's probably what I do the best. And I didn't realize it till this… it was passed over a jewish holiday and the children have to read at the passover table. 

All of my students have a nervous breakdown. You know, they go around the table and they're counting what am I gonna have to read. Of course, I tell the parents,  practice one page for a couple of weeks and have your child read that, and that'll be fine because they'll remember what they're reading. And when I called the father I had his child like 10 years ago and I said do you remember that I got an email and it said call me ASAP, I'm crying. And the father… And it was on passover and I knew what happened. 

The child had to read and he couldn't read and he said I can't believe that he read. And so when I called him this time I said do you remember that email? He said yes but it wasn't that he read, I'm gonna cry. It was that you had given him the confidence to read. It wasn't that he was reading. Yes of course it was, but it's what you gave him. That's a gift. He still has and he's in 11th grade getting all A's and he still has somebody who helps him with his massive amounts of homework. But that confidence, you know when you go into a room, even now I'll go into a room you could just tell that person that just has confidence is talking to everybody and the other people who are like quiet and staying in the corner or whatever. And when you have confidence, if parents can…. The only thing that I know that works is when you have a teacher that doesn't understand your child, you get the tutor outside of school, you get his old second grade teacher to work with him. If he loves playing sports, get him into sports where he's feeling good. It's very hard if there's a teacher, I had a principal who said this child is never gonna go to seventh grade and the child was in kindergarten, I just met the mother the other day in the market. Do you believe it? And now the child like 25 of course he's some fantastic. But she said the child, I said, what are you talking about? The child's in kindergarten just has a little inattention. That's all I had the mother do my step by step, which I've been doing for years. Let's get him tested. Let's find out what we can do, get somebody to work with him. But can you believe a principal said that? 

Laura: No, I mean, I can unfortunately. 

Dr. Waller: But that's why my book is written. It is written like Dana Buchman said from Promise’s project. This is a step by step that every parent, every teacher will understand and go, oh yeah, that's that kid I have. Maybe I should try to work something out, or parents and I find that even if the kids are good in sports, that's wonderful. Talk about confidence. If they're good in sports. If they're good… this little boy who the mom said, oh yeah, he likes legos. If you… I can show you that shark, you'll just go what? And he's not using plasticine, which I use, he's using that real clay that you put water and I don't even know how to do that, with the, with the feet coming out and he just did an unbelievable camera project too. I use old cameras. And if you have that stuff for the child at home, if they love art, if they want to do sports, whatever they want. I know it's really hard now because the kids, the kids are stuck on the computers all the time. 

Laura: Well, it’s not just the kids too, there's a lot of pressure on parents. I think I have a lot of compassion for parents that, you know,  because when we see our kids showing up differently than how their teachers are expecting them to and how the world expects them to. It can create a lot of anxiety within us. And you know, I don't know about you, but sometimes I work in fields where there's lots of privileged parents who are highly educated. And then they've got this kid who's a little bit different and isn't doing the things that they expected them to do or isn't responding to a packed schedule in the way that they're expecting or they're maybe there are friends, or adult friends, kids are responding to it. And I guess I just, you know, there's… I love that you're giving permission to relax on some of those things to just give… 

Dr. Waller: Hey! Wait a minute. Be happy because I've never met a child with learning differences. And I'm telling you when I say thousands, thousands that didn't have that special heart of them and that we're not smart. I think it's interesting on the spaceship. Richard Branson. He has… they call it dyslexia. I will never call it that, because dyslexia’s inability to read and my children all learned to read. So I don't like that word at all. They have learning differences. But he said, they said, how did you feel the 10 minutes you were up in space and he has learning disabilities and attention issues. He said, and he said, well he said the thing that happened, that was sort of funny is you had to seat belts once he felt you let go and you could fly around, you know? you could move around for the 10 minutes and the other seat belt was your seatbelt for your parachute. So they said undo your seatbelt and you're right seat belts so you can float around. 

And because he had learning differences, he unbelted a seatbelt that let go of his parachute. And I thought that was so classic. Like that was just, it was classic. And I just feel that… I hope this book is… the book is written for teachers. At the end of every chapter, there's a box with the takeaway of the chapter and there's a box for parents and teachers. Here's what you do. So a lot of my book, has a lot of the wonderful stories about children and what do you do? You get them tested, you get them… you do, you go step by step. It has to start with the parent. I had on zoom. I had a student that made himself an alien. Now, truthfully, I'm somebody who works with kids who I think are very creative in one way or another. And so I thought it was, I saw his little face, but all the rest of him was an alien. And the teacher called me and went, I can't stand this, why is he an alien? And I just, I had to laugh and I said, I said, it doesn't bother me. I realized in the classroom maybe you don't want them to do that. And I wrote it into the New York Times. They put it, they said, what's different about your time during quarantine? And I put, I taught an alien to read. It's something that didn't bother me, but I could see where a teacher with the whole classroom wouldn't be so happy about it with the kids' faces on the computer. 

Laura: But Victoria, I think that you're hitting on this very critical mindset shift that is so important with kids. You're able to look at that and see his creativity, see his unique spirit and delight in it versus looking at it through a lens of this is a kid who's not doing what he's supposed to be doing. This is a kid who's goofing around, who's making a scene and leaning into those unique passions and strengths and channeling them and letting them, you know, build within the child and then directing them for the good of the learning. It. I mean, it's a very big skill that I think teachers have to learn and that parents have to learn how to advocate for. 

Dr. Waller: Well, that's why you have to get my book. Take them on, step by step. You can't say you don't know about it anymore, if you read this book. That's why I'm saying it's for teachers too. They're gonna look and go, oh, that's what he does. Oh, this is what I should do. Now, the big part of this is the testing and if the child needs medication that… listen, that saying, okay, maybe that will work. Now, you want to try without, you want to try different things fine. But if your child is failing in school and failing in school and it's because they can't pay attention and they have these differences. You've got to get them help. 

Laura: Yeah. And medication, the way I've always viewed it, is that it gets kids up to a level of functioning where the other things that we're trying can have it in a better effect. You know? So it gets them access to the internal resources that they need to be able to do the things that we want them. 

Dr. Waller: And the resources that they have, that they can't do because they're either inattentive or they have some learning differences but getting them help and I'm telling you… You can…  there's always that, that the woman who I sat with who's 32 had that second grade teacher who saw her all those years and she said I really…  she told my mother…  and that's why my book is done, you know,  there's…  it's done for parents, teachers and colleges because colleges, there's nothing about learning differences. They go “oh he has learning disabilities”. No, differences, they have differences. But the children that have these differences, I'm telling you, I've never had one that was not smart and didn't have wonderful interests. I just didn't. And the team, the child's team is very important. Very important, who you use, and if they have a speech issue they need to get somebody to help them. The public schools do have, I have a granddaughter who has some difficulties. And the public school they have, the Speech, she sees a Speech person there. She sees an O.T. there. I mean they really help. It's just not oh I can't afford, it isn't that anymore. There are a lot of people that can help in your school. 

Laura: Yes, I agree so much. The schools are doing so much better now. Alright, so the one thing, as this episode is airing, kids are going to be heading back to school and for lots of kids who do have learning differences or challenges that time period can be really stressful for them and for their families. There can be a lot of school refusal that starts happening and I'm just curious if you have any tips as we head back into the school year here in the United States. 

Dr. Waller: Okay, so here's my book. Yes, your child can. Creating success for children with learning differences and there's a whole chapter on how to avoid back to school hysteria. The most important thing I have to tell you right now. My parents tend to be anxious about their child going back to school to a new teacher. They want to write to them, they want to go meet them. Here's what to tell you. I was a classroom teacher. Don't come to me in August and start telling me about your child all these things about, he doesn't do this and he can't do this and he did… No, no, take it easy. Write a letter to the… email to the teacher and say, I do have a child who is learning differences. Hopefully, your writing were getting him help. I'd like to speak to you in a couple of weeks when you've been in the classroom. A teacher’s putting up bulletin boards, especially after these two years. You know, it might be a new teacher to the school. They're busy getting ready, they don't want that mother father in their ear about their kid and all, they're gonna remember, oh no, I'm getting a kid who can't sit still. No, no. 

Laura: Yeah, they need a chance to have an unbiased view too. For sure.

Dr. Waller: Yes, yeah,  and believe me in a couple of weeks then, they'll be sitting down. Another thing is parents tend to take children off of medical… if they're on medication and I must tell you about medication. It's nothing like it used to be one medication, there are many now which you would talk to a doctor about, a medical doctor. There are many now and they really just… sometimes it's a little bit… they need to just treat their attention whether it's inattentive or being hyper, it's just not horrible just… 

Laura:  It’s very different like it was in the eighties. 

Dr. Waller: It's very different. But some of my parents do take their children off medication in the summer. Then they come back telling me that they've had the worst summer in the world. Or like my students in the book, Alex. They went away the first… they put him on medication, everything was terrific, and then they went away for the Christmas holiday. And I didn't say, I mean, I didn't think of it at that time to say don't forget to keep him on medication. Well they thought, we’re going to take them off medication. He was so difficult. He was oppositional. He was defiant and I said you took him off medication. 

The medication helped that. So don't go doing that. You've, if you've taken your child off medication you have to have a doctor that your child is seeing. Also as they grow up too, you know, maybe physically they need a different medicine. Also, most children in the summer go to bed later, light out till 10 and all of a sudden the night before you're saying go to bed at eight o'clock, no start two weeks before. Just putting him to bed 10 minutes earlier, five minutes earlier for the next two weeks. So they don't really see the… Though it's only 8:05, they won't know by five minutes, five minutes. Otherwise the first few weeks of school the child's gonna be totally exhausted, relaxing them. Every child gets nervous about the next grade. Start reading to them. My student Alex what I loved the best is that his father read to him all the time. And he could read all the time. They read to him as I told you, the children who have learning differences and I don't care what anybody says. They're very smart, I don't care what anybody says. I've seen thousands. 

Read to them, read books, joke books, they have so many wonderful books and the best thing you can get, two things. The Week Junior, it's the old magazine, The Week for Adults and The Week Junior is for kids and it's everything that's happened that week in the world. But like little tiny four inch articles. Kids love it. It is the best thing you can buy. Buy that now and Newsela which comes on the internet. And it's the same thing where it's what went on like Michael Packard and the whale. All little interesting articles for children. Start that, before bed start… Have a little talk if you haven't done that with your child and something very nice to do. How was your day? Are you worried about school? What can I do to help you with that? What are the things you're good at? Try to talk about, so you're really prepping them for what they're good at in case they're going into a grade where it's going to be hard and I know you're gonna laugh at this. 

Every teacher in the world, I'm telling you it's true. The first day of school they say write what you did on your vacation. I'm telling you they do, do that. And every child goes, oh Vicki they don't do that. I said, just listen to me, Let's practice. What was the favorite thing you did? And they'll think, you know, they won't remember any of the 400 things they did. We went on 17 hikes, we went swimming. I said, okay. And I have them write it and then I always love it because the second day or the next time? I see the child, how did you know my teacher was going to say. What did you do on your vacation? I said because so… get to talk to them about that. What would you write? What would you do? Talk about what you did this summer? 

Let's talk about the books they read. I hope they're reading The Week Junior. What was the most interesting article? There's so many interesting articles in The Week Junior. I don't have one child who doesn't love that, that magazine. And it comes every week. Also, in the car, two weeks before I start talking about, you know schools coming up, you're gonna have I don't, most of the time I think they know their teacher. I'm not sure. Usually you get a note saying who you're getting now they hold it because they don't want parents calling them and bugging them. But talk about you know, here are the two teachers in the next grade. 

Do you think we're gonna have a good year? What do you think you can do to make the year a good year? What are some of the things you do? Well, a lot of my kids are very good in math but they can't read or they're good in ideas. Okay, so when you have to write something that's what we do this summer, all remember when we found those, I have five rabbits in my backyard, I just want to tell you that now. My husband goes, oh aren't they cute? I go, no, I used to think they're cute, but they're eating my lawn and it drives me crazy. Ok, I would write about the five rabbits in my backyard. Give them some ideas, because they'll say I didn't do anything all summer. And you know the parents, you've done 4000 things with them. 

Even if it was building with, by the way, I didn't talk about building with Amazon boxes. You do not have to have money to have Amazon boxes, a little bit of glue paper and markers and have them. I can tell a child okay… we're going… maybe they read a story on a boy who climbed a mountain. I take them in my garage, which is filled with every piece of junk you've ever imagined tops too. Right now, I have a coffee, a coffee container, has these black covers, and I'm going, oh, I bet that would become something. My students can go in the garage, they can go through all the junk in five or 10 minutes. They can know exactly what they're gonna make. 

Do something with that. Oh, look how good you are at that. Tell them that the teachers are scared to. I have to tell you I was a teacher in a classroom, I'd be so hyper before school started. Who are my kids gonna be, would I be doing a good lesson? And don't, please parents do not bother the teachers about your child yet. Talk about what they like, they like science. Talk about science maybe Steve Spangler has great science stuff on the Youtube. You can watch those doing some experiments with your kids if they like that. 

Talk about what their schedule is gonna be. Oh so you're gonna be doing sports on Tuesday and what would you like to do in art class? Because you like art so much. Talk about what their schedule is gonna be. Check this class list. Are there kids that he really likes in the class? You'll get that about two weeks before. if there are, say let's get together, we haven't seen him all summer. Because sometimes you don't see your friends. That alleviates anxiety because you're with that. Yeah you'll know. Okay.  Before school, the weekend before, do a family thing, go on a hike, have a swim contest. Have friends over. I had a bark mitzvah for my dog and my student had a hamster mitzvah for his hamster which was hilarious. Have something fun. And by some of the kids over from his class. 

Once school starts, it's very important. One parent at least should be putting the child to bed even if they’re in fifth grade. They go in bed, you sit on the bed with them just talking about what you did this summer. Wasn't that fun or what book did we read you or whatever? Maybe you'll be seeing Miss Smith who's gonna be your tutor. So don't worry we will have somebody to help you with your work. I find the one parent said to me, he's so oppositional defiant and he just loves coming to you. I said I'm not his mother and you know I'm building projects out of used cameras that I buy on amazon. If you read a book about the baseball player, I have them build using hot glue a camera and paper and maybe a little styrofoam top for a head and they make characters out of an old camera. You have old remote controls. Oh they make fantastic people. 

They make people I mean do things like that and talk to them at bedtime about things they're good at and you'll be with Jimmy, you like him so much. These are all things that I think reduce the child's anxiety and reduce your anxiety because parents all have anxiety. And it’s just one day at a time, but I would start two weeks ahead with a little bit every single day. And if they're seeing a therapist or a tutor, have them start like a week or two ahead. They'll remember that they like being with them and just keep reading to them, just read to them, get them back into that feeling of listening and if they need to be tested, get them tested and if they need somebody to help them. That's the most. That's number one in my book. They may need help and they're such good. I'm telling you, there's such good teachers at school who like your child and probably would like to tutor them, maybe after school to help them. But you have to get help for your child. That's the most important thing. And you know, use their passions and strengths and after they're in school for that couple of weeks and you want to write the letter to the teacher, maybe could we meet like October first. And don't get scared. Oh, it's a month, that first month, everybody's just getting used to everything. 

Meet with the teacher. And if you have a tutor, have the tutor be in the meeting too, you know, and maybe they're seeing a specialist in the school. But what you have to, more than anything is realized that with your child's passions and strengths, yes, they can succeed. And that's what my book is all about. My book is, Yes, your child can. Creating success for children with learning differences and that's what it is. And they can all be successful. But you have to follow, you have to follow the step by step and don't be scared. They're smart kids, can you imagine all these years? I've never had a child come to me and I'd say to my husband, oh, this one isn't smart. They all have special qualities. Every child and these are the kids in class who maybe are harder to teach. They all have special qualities. And if you use those qualities to make them confident, that word came up so many times, confident. If they, if you go into a party there could be a lot of brilliant people and you're like, you know, you don't want to get near them. They're like scientists and stuff, but the one that exudes confidence, that's the one that's interesting and they may not be a scientist, but there's something about that confidence and that's what I think. I think it's the most important and you as a parent, it's your number one job and to feel good about your child. Yeah.

Laura:  Well, thank you so much Victoria. This was really a great conversation. 

Dr. Waller: Oh, you’re terrific! I like you. 

Laura: All right. So yes, I'll have links, you know, in the show notes and everything. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. 

Dr. Waller: Oh well, I loved it. I just really love your… I love everything about you. I was reading all of…  I was listening and reading all about you, so thank you so much. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

Bonus (Group Coaching Call): The Power of Mindset When Big Kids Meltdown

Hey, my dears! We are going to do something a little bit different for today's episode. I'm going to let you listen in on one of the group coaching calls that I had recently in my membership, Balancing U.

You may have been following along with the Reactivity to Responsiveness Challenge and if you have, then you know that I have decided to move all of my courses and programs into my membership. And starting next week on October 10, we're going to be doing my program Parenting from Within as a part of the membership, which means you get to have my biggest program for the monthly right of Balancing U. 

So, I wanted to give you a taste of what it's like to be in a group coaching program with me, and what it's like to hop into a Zoom room and get to discuss the ins and outs of being a conscious parent in this conversation. 

And in this episode, we were:

  • digging into releasing old mindsets that kind of keep us trapped in punitive parenting

  • understanding the desire to teach a lesson and give a consequence

The folks that are with me in the room have been dedicating themselves to nonpunitive parenting for well over a year and this work is ongoing for all of us. 

So, I'd love to have you listening to this conversation about really firmly keeping that mindset shift in place. I hope that it helps you and I hope it gives you a little bit of a taste so you can see if Balancing U is right for you. We'd love to have anybody in there who is wanting to make these changes in their lives and wants to contribute to a loving and compassionate community. 

If you think it might be right for you, feel free to reach out to me and check it out. If you're considering Parenting from Within, we'd love to have you do the program with us as we run it live in the membership in October and November this fall. You can check all of that out at www.laurafroyen.com/pfw to learn more about Parenting from Within and everything that's inside of it. 

If you just want to check out the membership in general, you think it's time to get some on-the-ground support, weekly space for you to ask questions, and a chance to be on the podcast and get coached by me for free, you can check that out at laurafroyen.com/membership.

Here are the resources mentioned in the call that I think might benefit you as well. 

Resources:
- Flying Wish Paper (there are a lot of pretty designs on Amazon!)
- Collaborative & Proactive Solutions Approach by Dr. Ross Greene (you can find the Assessment of Lagging Skills and Unsolved Problems or ALSUP here)
- Anxiety Relief for Kids by Bridget Flynn Walker, Ph.D.
- The Rhino Who Swallowed a Storm by Levar Burton

Episode 137: How to Help Your Child With School Struggles with Philip Mott

Every year in the month after school starts back up here in the States, I get flooded with questions from parents about how to ease their child's transition back to school and how to navigate an educational environment that is not always grounded in the same principles of respect that we focus on at home. And I know from personal experience that big transitions are never easy, especially for those of us with sensitive, spirited kiddos when moving into an environment where they aren't fully seen and accepted. And so, to give you tips on how to help children with school struggles, I brought in Philip Mott, a homeschooling father to three and a monthly contributor to First Time Parent Magazine and FatheringTogether.org. He runs Kids Are People and Self Directed Community, two online groups for parents who are practicing and supporting each other in a non-authoritarian approach to educating and raising their children.

We will be talking about how we can bring a lens of respect and connection into our child's interactions with education and into their academic life

Here's an overview of our conversation:

  • Respectful instruction: How our disposition affects relationships

  • Connect first: Prioritizing connection over curriculum

  • Lose the battle: Reframe power struggles

If you are looking for more resources, visit Philip's website www.philipmott.com and follow him on Instagram @philip.mott.

Episode 136: Language Development: What You Need to Know with Leanne Sherred

For this week's episode, we are going to talk about speech development and how to go about getting your children's support. To help me in this conversation, I brought in a speech pathologist and therapist, Leanne Sherred. She is currently the President and Founder of Expressable - online speech therapy, a company that envisions a modern and affordable way for anyone who needs speech therapy to access these vital services.

Here's a summary of our discussion:

  • The benefit of early intervention for better speech outcomes

  • Signs and myths regarding stuttering in childhood

  • Early signs to seek professional evaluation/support

  • What a speech-language pathologist can support

To get more resources and look for more support from Leanne, follow her on Instagram @expressablehq and Facebook.

Episode 135: Why Coming Home Can Be So Hard, and How to Make It Easier

I hear a lot of parents who want to help their kids make transitions a little bit easier, but transition can be difficult for us, adults, too! Like when you come in from a grocery store run and you'd like to just unload in peace but everyone needs something! Whether you've just been gone for luxurious solo Target run, a relaxing yoga class, a lovely nature walk, or even a night away, the chaos of coming home can feel like it "un-does" the alone time you just had. I wanted to know if I was alone in experiencing this and if anyone had developed any strategies to make home-comings as a parent a bit easier. Well, my IG community agreed that they can sometimes be so hard they aren't really sure the trip out is "worth it". When I asked my community if they had any rituals or practices they do to make their transition back to their homes (after going out, buying groceries, or taking a mini vacation alone) a little bit easier, most of them answered NO.

And so, for today's episode, I want to help find a bit more ease and peace for those moments when you need to transition from being away from home to being with your kids and put on our 'mom' or 'dad' role.

Here's an outline of what I discussed:

  • Why coming home can be so hard for us parents (and kiddos too!)

  • How do we balance between being with our kids and taking the time to transition back into our house

  • Transition and reunion rituals for kids and adults


Hey, we are already halfway through September! If you didn't get the memo yet, I'd love to invite you to join me in my Reactivity to Responsiveness Challenge taking place at the end of of this month. All the details for signing up are here: www.laurafroyen.com/reactivity.

Episode 134: The Sneaky Double Standards of Parenting with Blimie Heller

I have a vivid memory as a tween of looking at my parent in outrage, thinking in my head (because I was afraid to say it out-loud), "What a hypocrite!"

I don't really remember what they were doing that set me off, but that FEELING of injustice is still so clear. I think I'm not alone in having moments as a tween and teen of seeing my parents through the lens of "How come you can do it and I can't?!" In fact, my own kids (7 & 9 yrs) have said those exact words to my partner and me, multiple times, and for us, those moments are an invitation to pause, soothe my indignant and entitled feelings, and attempt to see it from their point of view (conscious parenting is about awareness and kind self-evaluation, not perfection). Kids tend to have a keen sense of justice, fairness, and right and wrong (and as a spirited kid I got an extra dose of that 😂), and as a kid I saw SO much of it: The teachers eating in class when we couldn't. Parents staying up late when we couldn't. Grownups having seconds (and thirds) of desserts when we couldn't. And those are just the ones I noticed as a kids, now as an adult I see soooo many more...

I truly believe that the way for us to teach kids the values we really want to pass on, is to do our best to embody and model them in our daily lives. But it's hard because sometimes these double standards are so sneaky, and are cloaked in our cultural conditioning that can make us prejudiced against kids so that we can feel justified in saying, "my kids can't do this but I can since I am an adult." And some of these may be so deeply ingrained that we aren't even aware of them, which means we may be perpetuating them without even realizing it! (And I'm right there with you on this, I still find myself setting double standards from time to time, and luckily we've created an environment where our kids feel safe enough to push back and question us, and show us where the double standards are. They are such amazing partners in this parenting journey.) And that is why, for this week's episode, we will be talking about the sneaky double standards that gets in our way of parenting.

And to help me in the conversation, we have Blimie Heller of Unconditional Parenting (one of my favorite Instagram accounts, go check it out @unconditional_parenting). She is a mom who’s passionate about helping parents build relationships with their children based on respect and trust. Here's a summary of our conversation:

  • The kind of double standards that can exist in parenting

  • The sneaky stuff that creeps in as we work on conscious parenting

  • How to shift away from the double standards we notice in ourselves

We would like to invite you for a little homework after you listen to this episode. Grab a notebook or your journal and list down the double standards you notice in your parenting and share it on Instagram. Don't forget to tag us, @unconditional_parenting @laurafroyenphd so we'll know. And if you're up for more work, I'd love to invite you to join me in my Reactivity to Responsiveness Challenge taking place at the end of September. All the details for signing up are here: www.laurafroyen.com/reactivity.

Episode 133: Break the React & Regret Cycle to Reclaim Your Power w/ Christian de la Huerta

Ok, it's story time my friends!!

Yesterday morning my kids were putting away their new school clothes and one of them asked if they could wear one of the outfits that day. My immediate thought in my head was, "No! We got those for school and they need to stay 'new' for the first day!". And then, right there, before I said a word, I got the elusive *pause* I know we are all searching for. That doesn't always happen for me, conscious parenting doesn't come easy for me the way it seems to for some parenting folks out there (**cough cough** Janet... Robin **cough cough** Please know I'm joking and greatly admire my colleagues and know that every parent struggles with something!), but it happened yesterday! And so I got curious, where did that idea come from? And I was flooded with back-to-school memories of asking my mom to wear my new clothes, her saying no, and then being glad on the first day because my outfit felt so special and I felt so confident in it. I could see in my mind my first day of school pictures, and remember the excitement I felt to be going back. And I was afraid she would miss out on that. There was a LOT going on under the surface of my default "No" response to a seemingly small, mundane parenting moment, right? And guess what, most of the time that flows through us without even noticing. We react from our default, from our stories, instead of responding to the child in front of us, while acknowledging the child within us. And this noticing, this pausing, this awareness and curiosity? THIS is the work of conscious parenting, and it will last a lifetime.

If you're wanting to know how to do this work, I'd love to invite you to join me in my Reactivity to Responsiveness Challenge taking place at the end of September. All the details for signing up are here: www.laurafroyen.com/reactivity.

Ok, so you're probably wondering what I actually *did* after the pause, right? Well once I was clear on the story underlying my automatic response, I was able to tell her that they were her clothes, so it was her decision. I asked for permission to share my thoughts on the subject, and she said ok. Turns out, she agreed that she wanted one outfit to stay "new" for school, and just wanted to wear the other one. And then we just went about our day. No fighting or yelling or hurt feelings... That moment of pause allowed me to release my story (and control & fear).

Mainstream parenting (aka the parenting most of us received, and that most of us are trying move away from) often relies solely on power currencies that are inherently damaging to relationships: like fear, control, and hierarchy. If any of those are present in a romantic relationship, we know (even if we can't always see it from the inside) that it's not ok, not healthy. Yet they tend to be the default for so many of us, myself included, and not just with our kids, but in our own heads even as we try to change ourselves. The irony of trying to become a more peaceful, respectful, and compassionate parent by using the very tactics we are trying to avoid with our kids on ourselves, will always fill me with bemused sadness. And yet each day is a constant practice of reminding myself that I, too, am worthy of compassion, dignity, and respect. And that releasing shame, blame, judgement, fear and control is just as healthy for me as it is for my kids. And what's more, if I want true and lasting change, then it starts with me. Not in my actions in the world with my kids or my partner, but in my interactions with the person I will be in relationship with the longest: myself.

This work, this life-long work, is the topic of not only of the R2R challenge I mentioned above, but also this week's discussion on the podcast with my guest, Christian de la Huerta, a sought-after spiritual teacher, personal transformation coach and leading voice in the breathwork community. Here's what we talked about:

  • What it means to have power and the different types of it

  • How to be empowered without being domineering to our partners and kids

  • How to break the react and regret cycle

If you want to find out more about the work Christian do, you can do so at SoulfulPower.com (if you get on his email list, you will get a sample chapter from his book!) and follow him on Instagram @christiandlh.

You can get a copy of his book, Awakening the Soul of Power, here.

Episode 132: Parenting as a Spiritual Journey with Mary Van Geffen

If you were able to listen to the bonus episode last week, let me know if it helped you in dealing with a spirited child who is stuck in their big feelings (if you have one), I always love hearing from you! To continue the conversation around this topic, we will talk about how parenting a challenging, strong-willed kiddo can be seen as a spiritual practice and a journey.

I know that raising a spirited, strong-willed child can be well... a lot. And so, to help me in this conversation, I have brought in a wonderful colleague, Mary Van Greffen. She is an international parenting coach for overwhelmed moms of strong-willed & spicy children. She believes that when a mom realizes how hard she is on herself and cracks the door open for some self-compassion, her entire family is bathed in light!

Here's a summary of our conversation:

  • Embodying Motherhood: Using your body’s presence, posture and proximity to stay calm and to generate more cooperation from your strong willed child

  • Key Postures (or ways of "showing up") that your spirited kiddo needs you to embody

  • Embracing the spiritual process of parenting a spicy child

If you are looking for more support, you can visit Mary's website and follow her on Instagram @maryvangeffen.

Bonus: Live Coaching - How to Help A Kid When They Are Stuck In Their Big Feelings

Listen in to this coaching session with a wonderful mom from my BalancingU Membership community as I help her problem solve how to help her spirited kiddo who is struggling to move past his strong feelings.

Free (anonymous if you prefer) coaching on the podcast is a perk of being in my BalancingU membership.


TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: So tell me about your family and how I can help. You got a spirited, strong willed little one.

Lindsey: I do, I do. So just a little bit of a brief background about a year and a half ago we moved from new york city to paris and it's been amazing and intense of course as moving internationally and adding Covid into the mix would be but by and large, I'm like so impressed with my family's response and my kiddos in particular. 

So when we moved here, my son was, I guess five and I remember when he was in pre k for at night going to bed, he would lay there and in reaction or in in anticipation of us moving here, he would just start crying and say, you know, like what if they don't understand me? You know, because he is in a bilingual school. It's 80% French, 20% English and we don't speak any French. 

So he's like, you know what if, what if they don't understand me, what if I need to go to the bathroom, whatever I need to drink and he would cry, you know, and whereas my eight year old or at the time I guess was six was just sort of like, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I'm gonna roll with this. Right? So the interesting thing was, once we got here, it kind of reversed. She was now experiencing more of that and he was like, okay, let's go with this. Like, this is pretty cool.

Laura: And that makes sense, right? Because the one got all of that out ahead of time and the other one was maybe feeling all those things but kept it in right? 

Lindsey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And so they went to different schools last year because he didn't get into the school that she did did great in a school super resilient this year now they are in the same school together and same thing. He's like, he is so adaptable when it comes to, to new environments. So I just wanted to frame all that because there's just great stuff, great stuff to say about him. 

He's a sensitive little guy and he's stubborn and has a very hard time moving past strong feelings. He's my guy who at three years old, he would say, I'm gonna put myself in time out and he would go in the bedroom and, and close the door and just want to stay there. So it's sort of this like defiant nature, you know? Yeah, you're gonna, you're, you don't want me to do this or you're gonna punish me, I'll put myself there first. That's an early night that comes on. And now I would say more what I think about is just that like once he gets in a funk or in a place he just stuck there.

Laura: And would you characterize him as kind of like holding it together kind of at school? Maybe it's hard, like school is really, really hard for him to hold it together, Do what he needs to do, be well regulated and then he comes home and it just kind of all comes out is that kind of what's happening. 

Lindsey: I would agree with that. 

Laura: Yeah. Okay. And I love, first of all how you framed this because we're never all just one thing, right? We all have all these parts of us and I love that you're seeing all of the good stuff, The awesome stuff in your son too, that's so important and that can get so lost when we're having a hard time when they're in a sticky face. Okay. So it sounds like you're wanting to help him learn how to not get stuck in some of those hard feelings or those thought patterns is that kind of what I'm hearing.

Lindsey: There's definitely that and I would just add to that, that what I hear myself saying these days a lot is that he's kind of getting in his own way with those feelings. So you know, you'll kind of get stuck there or not be able to move on. And what I've been explaining to him is that he's getting into own way and potentially even making the situation worse versus being able to navigate out of it. 

And you know, I view it as a skill of resiliency and adaptability and those are all things we strive and for our family, obviously moving across the country across the world, you know, Earl are all, you know, attributes that are important. So not only do I want to help him now cope better, but also just thinking ahead of him being a little adult. Yeah. 

Laura: Yeah. Okay. So give me just a couple examples of things that he gets stuck in when when you're he's experiencing that. So you're seeing him kind of getting in his own way. Just a couple examples will help me. 

Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah, of course, now that you ask me.

Laura: I know right? Like we have this like global idea that it is a certain way and it probably is. But then when we go for specifics, they're hard to find hard to hold on to.

Lindsey: Yeah, like I mean I can try to kind of come up with something. It's like he fights with his sister and you know, it's like he has a hard time saying I'm sorry or asking, are you okay? Hey, it was an axis and she got hurt. You know, just be like, hey, are you okay? Like everything alright? You want me to get mom, you want to get dad, you know, whatever and he won't say sorry. 

You know, this is like a really big deal because I think he thinks it's admitting guilt or that or something and then then he'll just stew and not get off the couch or not move or not participate in the next activity and you know, I'll say something like, gosh, you know, if you had just asked if she was okay, we want to show empathy for us a story. I want to make sure you know, and it's like you could have de escalated this whole thing, but because you were so fixated on not saying that, you know, things the family got, she got more upset, we got disappointed in you blah blah blah. 

Laura: Absolutely and you know, like, so in that moment, like there's a piece of this that's so important to understand for those kiddos who get stuck in in times like that, I think in my experience with kids like this, in those moments they feel so badly about inadvertently hurting their sister or you know, whatever it is that, you know, they have this kind of sense of like this was bad or this was wrong, I did this wrong, and it's not that they don't feel bad about it, it's actually that they do and it's hard to think of themselves that way. 

And so the, and because they're young, you know, so he's only six, his ability to kind of quiet his own emotional experience of having hurt someone inadvertently, quiet that experience, hold that experience in one hand, and also at the same time, see his sister's experience and have like that empathy, that perspective taking as a very advanced skill in terms of emotional intelligence. I mean this is a skill that like literally if I'm working with couples, I have to teach the couple the adult couples how to do how to have your own emotional experience here and at the same time witness and validate someone else's emotional experience, you know, all the time. We get stuck in places of like, well, I mean even just like politically we hear like here the whole time. 

Well I didn't mean it that way, you know, like, and so you shouldn't be upset because I didn't mean it that way, This is this ability to hold space for your feelings of like, oh man, I did something that I didn't mean to and it hurt someone and I feel kind of bad about myself, but I also don't want to think badly about myself and all of that starts flowing and it stops us, it gets in the way of being able to be present with the impact of our words, you know, and and have access to like the skills and tools that we could use to kind of get ourselves out of it, you know? 

And so one thing that can be helpful is to practice those things outside of the moment, so I want to have a sense of, I'm just this is not going to ask you a question. So is this mostly in the moment when you're kind of addressing these things, practicing these skills, giving him like, well you could just say, you know, or is it most or like close after it's happened when he's still kind of stuck or we doing anything preventatively or proactively about building these skills for him.

Lindsey: It's a great question, I'm not sure if this is going to answer it, but what comes to mind when you are asking me the question is like, it will even continue the next day. Yeah, right? Like, so, so the next let's say it happens around dinner time, you know, the evening will be this way we'll wake up the next day and be like, you want to ask your sister anything, you know, you know how she's doing if her back still hurts and I know you know like and so so I'm not sure, I think you might be asking me the opposite direction like if you know or or even like really disengaged from the event. 

Laura: Yeah, super disengaged from the event. And then the other piece too is that you know what I found with working with individuals of all ages with this issue? This is a lifespan like social emotional skill that takes the lifespan to develop. And so one of like having like reasonable expectations for a six year old to, you know, so personal, Taking, putting yourself into someone else's shoes is a is a cognitive skill that develops in the 6-8 range for typically developing kids. 

And that range of course we know it's a bell curve, right? And so they give us the age ranges that is at the top, but then there's kids who are normal and typical who are either end of those curves too, you know? And if we have a really emotionally intelligent older kid and then the younger one is, you know, a little bit slower on those things that can even look wider, like my kids really behind in this and that's not necessarily the case at all. So one thing that can be really helpful in these circumstances is to validate and empathize with the one who did the hurting first to clear out there, hurting this like there because you know if we like just think about like if you hurt your husband's feelings or your partner's feelings, sorry, I didn't mean to assume you hurt your partner's feelings and you didn't mean to and they're upset and some defensiveness flares up in you right? 

You have to do a little bit of soothing in yourself, right? A little bit of comforting like oh you know you didn't mean to do that and you know it's okay that you hurt your husband's feelings, you're still a good person, you still love him, You do a little bit of soothing before you then go and make the apology, right? So we kind of like the kids can't always do that inside themselves. So a little bit of soothing like oh man, it must have really hurt to hurt your sister's feelings. You said something and it landed wrong on your sister and you didn't mean to hurt her feelings and then suddenly everybody was mad at you. 

Everybody was thinking that you did something mean and you didn't even mean to I must have really been hard, you know like so that kind of empathizing on that piece of things, right? So that he's not, he gets that empathy, that validation of like yeah I'm a good kid, I didn't mean to hurt my sister's feelings. I didn't I didn't mean to do this thing wrong and it really feels like everyone's against me, kind of, validating that perspective can help get some of his stuff cleared out of the way and allow him the space to be more apologetic. You know, when we give forgiveness were more in return, we're more giving with our, you know, responsibility taking. I don't know if that's helpful at all. 

Lindsey: I love that. It's something I've never thought about. 

Laura: Yeah, Okay, good. And then the other thing that it's sounding to me, like, he has some scripts and some narratives bubbling under the surface. You know, we all tell ourselves stories about ourselves all the time and I've never seen him and I've never heard him, but I'm guessing, and you could probably even tell me like, what do you think he's thinking about himself? Like, when he's stuck in these moments. 

So when we get stuck in feelings, we are often rehearsing thoughts about ourselves or about the people around us over and over in our minds. And it can be really helpful to find out what he's thinking about. And so that we if once we know then we can speak to those narratives and start gently reshaping and helping them re script those things before. They get too entrenched. He's sixties, you know, like these still very malleable these scripts and narratives are still very easy to work with, you know, when they're six. Do you know what he's thinking about himself or think about his family, like what his story is.

Lindsey: Yeah, I think you're bringing up a really good point and I think you nailed him in the sense that, like, he's the kind of kid, like, even if he gets hurt physically, he won't say something well, kind of like, maybe hear a noise and go back to the house and he's like, you know, holding it and it's like, well, gosh, like, come to us, you know, Whereas his sister were used to that kind of behavior. So, I do think he's the type of person who's got a lot going on thinking, thinking things. So, I think you hit the nail on the head, I'm gonna have to think about what his script would be. I think you're absolutely right that he's got one.

Laura: Yeah. And so like, in these preventative and proactive times when you are like, it's been a while been a couple of days, maybe something like this has happened, then you can sit down and say, hey, you know, you remember the other day, you know, when when this happened, you know, it seems like you got a little stuck in feeling bad about yourself and I was kind of curious about like, if there were any, like, thoughts in your heads, if your brain was telling you anything about yourself or about your family, about maybe how we feel about you. 

I'm just I was just curious if your brain was telling you anything about those, about yourself and about and and just see what he says, you know, and you can also model this for him to awareness of your thoughts. So, like, I'm just in like, everyday situations, so, like, let's say you were getting a cup of coffee and you spilled it on the counter, you know, maybe you're like, first thought in that moment is like, I'm such a klutz. 

So you may even say like, oh, my brain is telling me that I'm clumsy, but I know I'm human and everybody makes mistakes, you can say that out loud, like, not like to him, but to yourself, but just kind of have that like self coaching happening, you know, that we do, I don't know if you do this, but I do this all the time. Like, I have the script that I developed in childhood, you know, where I need to be perfect in order to be loved comes out and then I self correct, you know, like 

Yeah, yeah, it is hard to make mistakes, but you're human and everybody does, and you know, and so sometimes doing that out loud can be really helpful to just as modeling the thought process and there's a book that I really like, I'm gonna go grab it, so you can see the cover, I don't know if you would call him an overly anxious kid, but he is what you how you're describing him as making some anxiety like bells pop up in my head. because sometimes anxiety when it's internalized looks different than what we think about a kid who, you know, like he bumps himself, he gets hurt and he doesn't tell you, he probably also isn't telling you when he's having worries or fears sometimes too, you know. 

so this book anxiety relief for kids is basically a manual that teaches parents how to do cognitive behavioral therapy techniques with their kids. And it's lovely and what I was just talking about is basically what this book teaches. So this is something that you can, you can grab and there's little just little things in there to help them become aware of their thoughts and start working with their thoughts and thought work. 

You know, recognizing that just because the neuron fires in your brain giving you a thought doesn't mean it's true that your brain will say things that are, that are random and not true all the time. And just cause you're thinking, it doesn't mean it's true recognizing thoughts that are unhelpful and then starting to work with them and make different kind of actively choose different thought. Those things can be really helpful skills for everybody to have everybody in the house, but especially for a kid who maybe is getting stuck in their thoughts and in in the story that they're telling themselves about about themselves. 

Another one that I really like that I don't have here because it's in my daughter's room because she likes it. My oldest is like your son in this way, but it's called Sam and the Negative Voice and that's a book for kids that basically teaches you about how we all have an inner critic and an inner coach and that sometimes our inner critic can be really loud, but when we let it be loud, it stops us from enjoying life. yeah, so I like that one. 

And then there's another book that my kids like to around kind of perfectionism and making mistakes and being graceful with yourself. it's called The Girl Who Never Made mistakes. So I like that book too if you're looking for kids books for for them, the concept of an inner coach in an inner critic can also be helpful to teach to kids. It's helpful for parents too. I mean, my inner critic is extremely active and loud sometimes and knowing that kind of Externalizing it, giving it a little bit of distance from me knowing that that negative voice inside my head isn't me, but it's just, you know, the negative voice, you know, that's something else and then being able to talk back with it and have a conversation with it is also just a helpful skill for kids to learn. 

And then one other practice that you can be engaging in is engaging in recognizing like as a, as a exercise as a family, recognizing when you've made a mistake and how you can be kind to yourself when you've made a mistake because that's really what's getting in his way, right? So he makes a mistake and he's hard on himself, so hard on himself that it prevents him from seeing, you know, being able to be there to repair the mistake that he's made, right? 

And so 11 daily practice that we do in our family um as we go around the table saying that, like, one thing that we did well today that we're proud of, one thing, mistake we made, and then one way that we were kind to ourselves about the mistake and so that's just like model, like modeling, noticing that every day we do things well, every day we make mistakes and every day we have a chance to be kind to ourselves, you know, okay, I feel like I'm giving you a lot of information. Can do you wanna, like, give me your feedback, let me know what you're thinking questions. I did like overwhelm me, I'm so sorry. 

Lindsey: No, no, no, it was, it was perfect and like you weren't joking when you said we were gonna get a lot done, but like, it wasn't an overwhelming way, it's just like you gave me something and I was like that, okay, you can't really top that and then you gave me something else. I was like, well, yep, she sure can for the third time or fourth time. So no, that was that was beautiful, I love that. I do have a question going back to the one of the first things you said, which was you know, when providing empathy at that time, when you know, wow, you you hurt your sister, you didn't mean to do that. And that must have been really hard, that whole thing. Like what, what do you suggest a step after that would be?

Laura: Yeah, okay, so first of all, just framing that, don't do that in front of your daughter. So that's something that happens privately with your son. We don't always have to subject our kids to our empathy for the other person. That's when it starts to feel like we're taking sides, right? So if we're going to be super empathetic, really coming alongside, really kind of on one kid's side, do that in private, so that you can also be on the other kids side, this is part of being having multi directed partiality is some sometimes you need to do things privately so that they feel fully supported by you. 

So then after that so first of all, when you go in with that empathy, you can't go in with the goal of making them want to apologize, you have to go in with the mindset that regardless of what they just did, they are also hurting, right? So holding space that a person can hurt someone and be hurting at the same time and that your only goal, your only agenda is to help them feel seen and supported and unconditionally loved in that moment. And so if we go in with the goal of like I'm only validating so that you will apologize, we'll rush it and they'll feel it, they'll feel it's not authentic, not real. So your mindset is super important and then afterwards, you know, sit, sit for a minute, how you feeling? 

Yeah, Okay. All right. What do you think we should do? So getting curious and inviting, their instinct is the next thing. So you know, what do you think we should do about this? Okay, we're feeling better now. What should we do? You know, what do you think we can do? Because you know, I can hear your sister still crying. What do you think? So you can maybe just get a little curious with just some little nudges and see what they do. 

Sometimes they have really good ideas for ways to apologize or make up that we would never think of and that allow them to save face, you know that allow them to to repair and apologize in ways that are authentic and true to them. you know, I think adults sometimes have ideas about how you know how a repair an apology is supposed to look and kids often need very different things. So like one of the things that my five year old does in these moments like this is that after we have our talk. 

She very, she almost always grabs a piece of paper and draws a picture of her and her sister together holding hands and slips that to her. And that is the apology and that's all the apology her older sister needs. And so it's tempting as an adult to force, you know, saying the words I shouldn't have said that, you know, I can see how that hurt your feelings. And often we don't always have to do that. We might say that to our own kid kind of for the one, you know, we had a chance to talk and man, he feels so bad about the way he said that he didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but he sees now how it could have, you know, and sometimes sometimes it's just modeling for for them the words to say because they don't always know the language, but also giving them the ability to just do whatever it is, that's their own language. 

My kids often give each other little gifts as apologies, you know, like little stones that they found out on a rock or you know, or my eight year old often allow, you know, when she's apologizing in those moments, she will offer the younger one a chance to sleep with one of her stuffed animals that she doesn't normally get to sleep too, you know, And those are, those are beautiful, childlike, heartfelt apologies that are more effective than anything. We can make our kids, do you know? Yeah, totally helpful. Does that answer? 

Lindsey: Yeah, that's um that's that's really helpful. Would you, would you recommend in the moment like separate like going and having that private like right away like right when it happens.

Laura: You know, your kid best. I'm guessing that he like, he will need practice proactive practice with some of the self soothing, some of the thought work stuff before he's ready for you to immediately go there with him. He may need some time to just get some big feelings out. Especially like if he is like when this is happening, he's feeling vulnerable. So this is about vulnerability. He feels vulnerable when he makes this mistake, he feels badly about himself. I am guessing that he's having lots of thoughts about, you know bad thoughts about himself or thoughts about like I'm all alone, no one gets me, whatever it is, you know, he maybe needs a little bit of time with those feelings before he's ready. 

You know him best. Like if you went in with nothing but empathy buddy, Oh you must be really upset. You didn't mean to hurt her feelings and you did and you feel so bad and now it seems like everyone's mad at you like you do you know like how he would respond to that.

Lindsey: I don't but I'm really curious to find out. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean give it a try like the worst that could happen would be like he'd be like get out, go away you know and slam the door you know like that might happen

Lindsey: like just want to go into his room and like he will be in there for an hour if I let him reading whatever and like fine like not angry, not throwing stuff just like hey I I'm being in here, I really don't want to see anyone right now.

Laura: Yeah, I mean I think that you know, I think often in the peaceful parenting community we get the idea that we're not supposed to let our kids do that, that we're not supposed to let our kids be alone with their feelings but some kids need to be and if that's what they're telling you that they need in that moment like I would respect respect them, you can always circle back circling back as always an option, let them regulate, let them come down, you know, let them, you know soothe so that they are open and available for to our, you know to our guidance, you know, I think it's okay but you can also ask him to so this is another thing that can happen in some of those proactive conversations, you know like hey, you know when you make a mistake just like everybody makes mistakes and you're really hard on yourself, what do you want me to do? 

You know? Because I know I know you're really upset, I want to be able to be there for you, but sometimes it seems like you just want to be alone. So what would be helpful when that happens? You know what, what could I say to help you? What could I do? I'm getting curious with them on those things and then just trusting them, you know, trusting them to know what they need. I do think that too though, like separating can, can be helpful. Like, I mean often they do it by themselves I think, I don't know in your family, but they take themselves away from the situation. But sometimes separating needs to happen even just for the vulnerability of being able to fully empathize with one kid without the other kids seeing it, you know, 

Lindsey: Because you bring you bring up something in my mind which I didn't didn't even realize I was gonna think about today, which is like I always have a hard time in that moment because she's hurt and not being even able to validate her or give her give her like that attention that she deserves because I'm so on him because he's that problem or he's the person that requires the attention or the skill or the lesson where she's just hurt and I feel so.

Laura: yeah, absolutely and so like in those moments, like we don't need to teach him a lesson first of all, he like he is the kind of the natural the consequence of his sister crying as the most beautiful teacher available, but his own like sense of shame or blame or self judgment is likely getting in the way of him being able to learn that lesson right? 

Because we, when we're in a place of shame or blame or judgment are learning centers in our brain are turned off right, so he can't even learn a lesson when he's there. And so yeah, when he's, you know like I mean something similar just happened last night in my own house. My my youngest daughter was making a face and we all thought that it was a joke face but she was actually upset and she got even more upset and we all like the three of us were like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry right away, she was accepted my husband's and my apologies for kind of reading the situation wrong, but my eight year old lost it about like just lost it and went off to her room and ran ran off and like that we just let that go, you know, cause she was just in a tender place of having accidentally hurt her sister's feelings and then feeling as if she was bad and wrong, you know.

So I mean and we eventually made all made all that up, you know? But yeah, sometimes like we got to go to the one who's hurting, you know, while understanding that the other one is likely hurting too just in a little bit different way. But yeah, if like someone gets is physically hurt or have their feelings hurt, a little bit of soothing is not a, you know, for them and knowing that the lesson, nothing will be lost in the time in our meaning, you know, the lesson is always going to be available there for them to learn. 

Lindsey: It's a good reminder because I think I feel that in the moment I'm like, I've got to, you know, this is the time when I've got to do this. It's fresh in our mind, but actually it's probably not even a place where they're able to take in. 

Laura: Exactly. And you know, we like, we also like have this pressure of like they need to know it's not okay. They know that they wouldn't be upset if they didn't know it wasn't okay, they would not be upset right then. So like the fact that he's upset tells you, like, he knows this isn't okay and if he could be doing better handling this better right now, he would be, you know, he would be doing better if he could in that moment say like, oh wow, I screwed up and I'm so sorry, He would do that 100%, he would do that. And I bet there's times at school where he does that with his friends or whatever and just for some reason at home in that moment, he can't, he doesn't have that skill available to him and it's not because he's a bad kid or because he's un empathetic or anything, just he just didn't wasn't able to write then 

Lindsey: Yeah, this has been so awesome. You're amazing. 

Laura: Thank you so much Lindsey, this was so much fun.

Lindsey: Thanks for your time. Your perspective is really special. Thank you again.

Laura: Thank you. You take good care you are there so lucky to have you as their mom. They're so lucky. 

Lindsey: Thank you. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

Episode 131: Keeping Kids Safe with Jen Szeghi

In this episode I am joined by a special guest, Jennifer Szeghi. She is a parenting expert and the founder of Successful Parenting.
Here's a summary of our conversation:

  • What we can do as parents to keep our kids safe

  • Having a conversation with kids on developing a healthy relationship with their bodies

  • Protecting Your Child from unsafe adults (and who is responsible for their safety)

  • Keeping our kids safe in the social media space


TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen. And we are recording this episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, live in my group, the balanced parenting community on Facebook. This is the first time I've done anything like this and I'm so excited to do this new thing with my special guest Jennifer Szeghi. And she is a parenting expert, she has a background similar to mine and she's going to be talking with us today about how to keep our kids safe. Jennifer, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show and my group and please will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Jen: Sure, well thanks for having me. Well, I guess a good place to start would be to think back on a day that changed the whole trajectory of my life. I found out in June of 2003 that I was accepted to graduate school, but I also found out that I was pregnant on the same day I moved away from anybody knew more than 350 miles away and I was a single parent. So being a single parent doing this on my own, a lot of people, you know, especially my parents and some family members were thinking I wasn't, you know, I was going to fail, but I took that as an opportunity to just dive right into what psychology had to offer and focus on child development, adolescent development. 

And I was determined to be prepared for anything parenting threw at me that I knew what was normal, what did I have to help my child through etcetera. And it was so helpful. I'm so glad I, you know, had that experience and I had that education not only for my personal goals but to help my child develop in a healthy manner as well. After graduate school, I was able to continue with my career goals and I became a child adolescent mental health therapist, which was very exciting. 

And I loved all the kids that I worked with. I even called them my own kids and that confused my son because he's like, you have other kids can go to work, but I just really loved what I did and I also found that I feel in a society we're waiting too late, we're waiting too late where kids are having anxiety and they're having depression and they're having extreme behavior problems and a lot of what I had learned, you know, in my master's program as well as I was actually teaching at the time in college child and adolescent development that really parents just needed this information, you know, unfortunately, there's not instructions that are handed to us when we have the kid, but it would be so helpful. 

So I changed what I did and I opened my own business called successful parenting to where I'm a parent-child coach, where I educate parents on what are the child's developmental needs and what are simplified parenting techniques that parents can do to make sure their kids stay on track and you know when are the signs and symptoms to identify if their child is starting to get off track and we can get them easier back on if we address the problem right away instead of letting it go for longer periods of time. 

So I find, you know different ways, what are some different ways that I can help parents, not only just, you know behaviorally and mental health-wise, but what else is going on in our society that it can cause developmental issues for our children. And you know, that brings me to why I created this training of keeping our kids safe.

And I know as parents, we were just appalled and horrified about what was going on and wondering, you know, what can we do next? And that experience had me reflect on when I was a mental health therapist and working with kids who were sexually abused and how often, you know when I first started and Doctor Laura, I don't know if you can relate to this, but you know in school they tell us, you know, you're a mandated reporter and you think, okay, you know, occasionally there's gonna be things that I'm gonna have to report, but unfortunately, like abuse happens so often in our society. 

So you know, I reflected a lot on how often it was happening with neighbors that was happening with aunts and uncles, you know, brothers and sisters. So you know to help educate parents, unfortunately how often this happens and how we can protect our kids. And it also made me reflect back on my childhood, on how there were some close calls that I had as a child. I actually learned to swim because of a pedophile. I was in Dallas Texas with my mom on vacation. I was gonna be a flower girl in a wedding and she was teaching me how to swim and she was in the deep end and I looked up on the balcony and there was a man who had his pants down and he was fondling himself. I swam. I didn't even think about it. 

I didn't even have the anxiety. I swam so quickly out to my mom and she turned me around and pushed me back because she was thinking I was doing such a good job and I didn't want to attract any kind of attention. So I swam back really fast and then swam back to her and she turned me around again and I couldn't take it anymore and I had to tell her what was going on. 

Laura: I'm so glad you had a relationship where you could tell her that you. 

Jen: Yes, absolutely. You know, I knew once I was in our arms that like I would be protected. You know, I didn't know too much about what was going on at the time, but my parents had educated me to say, you know, this is not appropriate behavior, this is bad behavior when somebody touches themselves in front of other people or if they asked to see you or any of those kind of things. 

So the education really did help and you're right, that relationship that I felt safe with my mom to tell her that had happened. Another instance that was a close call was about a year later when I was riding my bike to the park with my dad. And of course, when you're young, you're like carefree, don't think of any kind of consequences. 

And I got going so fast that I got around a corner and a car stopped and opened up its door, started to step out and reach for me when my dad came around the corner on his bike and they jumped back in the car and drove off. So as I was seeing these things on that were going on and you know, the whole issue of sexual abuse and kidnappings coming up how close this really is to us and how much it is happening around us. And as parents, we just have to make sure that we are vigilant and know how to keep our kids safe. 

Laura: Thank you for sharing those stories with us. I think it this is something that, you know, I think as parents were so scared of happening, many of us have had things like that happen to us. And so for some of us were hyper-vigilant trying to keep our kids safe. And for some of us were, it's so scary that we don't even want to look at it or think about it or think that it could happen. I would love if you could, if you wouldn't mind like sharing some of the, like the things that you think we as parents can do to help keep our kids safe. 

Jen: Okay. First of all, I think the foundation for so many things is to have that good relationship. Like you pointed out Doctor Laura that you know, I did feel safe with my parents, so having that quality time with your child, having open communication, letting your child voice things even when you disagree, you know, as long as it's in a respectful manner that they're allowed to say, you know what I don't feel like talking about that or I, you know, having some good boundaries up and developing that trust instead of getting mad or judgmental from what our children are saying and sometimes when we're stressed as parents, it's easy to go in that direction, but then we create obstacles for ourselves in the future that our kids are just gonna shut down and not want to come to us. So the very first thing is having that, you know, foundation that relationship with your child to make sure that they do come to you if something were occurring another thing.

Laura: Oh God, you know, you're fine. I just, one of the things that I was thinking of as you were saying that too is that part of building a trusting relationship with a child is understanding what's normal, like what's developmentally appropriate, like what the trajectory of sexual development for young kids and we don't like that's a weird phrase for most adults to hear. It doesn't mean what you think it means. But you know, we as psychologists, you know who are training, we know that that means just like kind of the typical normal development of a young child and having that knowledge I think is helpful to so that you know what's normal so you can normalize it for your child and so that they can carefully hone their sense of what's normal and okay and have it like open dialogue with their parents about it. You know.

Jen: Absolutely. And you know that starts and I think it's important for our parents to know that starts as young as two or three years old to where they start, you know, discovering private parts and you know what feels good And even little boys, it's very typical. I have this to where parents sometimes get very concerned about little boys like to compare their penises and show each other and you just have to, you redirect that behavior and say it's, you know, that's appropriate. We, don't show other people are private. 

You know, if you touched it, you do it in the privacy of your room. That's also important too because you know, I've seen cases in which sexual development was repressed and when that's repressed, then it goes to the extreme and really does cause sexual problems and you know, in the future. So I think that was hard for some parents to understand that these are typical behaviors, but we need to put some boundaries around that too, you know, to keep them safe and developing. But yeah.

Laura:  It's hard to do that if we ourselves were ashamed as young children or engaging in typical normal exploration of our bodies of our genitals like those. I mean many of us were punished or shamed for that and it's hard to do something different with our kids. But we really need to again, so that they are developing a healthy relationship with their body, a healthy comfort with the topic so that they can keep coming back to us and talking about us and knowing that were the source of information and safe for them.

Jen: And you just pointed out something else that is so important is that we do need to be aware of what our feelings are. And so if you have a child, you know, actually at any age, it's a good time to you know, tune into what your feelings are about sex and talking about sex with your child. Because if you come across where you feel shameful about it or you feel embarrassed, kids are very emotionally intelligent, they can pick up on that. 

And if they sense this is a topic that mom's embarrassed about their like, no thank you, I won't talk about that and then they'll end up talking to their friends about it later in middle school and high school and they're gonna get the inaccurate information. And so it's one of those things just to touch base with yourself and be self-aware as a parent, How do you feel about it? Make sure you're resolving your feelings so you can talk to your child in a very, you know, direct and it's just part of human development and you know, have a normal conversation about it. 

And I agree with you when I first learned that wait a minute we're supposed to, you know, it's okay for children to touch themselves. And I was a little bit perplexed by that too. But then when I looked at the research on how that can cause shame and how that can interfere with healthy sexual development, I was very that was another area and parenting. That I was able to have more of that open dialogue. 

Both my sons come to me still even in high school about sexual questions that they have and I'm very thankful that they feel comfortable because I could see if they had that question and they asked one of their friends, I don't know what kind of answer they would have got. But also if they would have spread that rumor of like, oh, you know, AJ thought this, you know, I'm glad that, you know, they feel comfortable. So.

Laura: And I mean, and we're talking about keeping our kids safe and this conversation might be seem like it's a little hand gentle, but it's not right, because that's how you build trust and safety and that's how you get information from your kids. Having that open line of communication gives you more influence and more ability to know what's going on in their lives. If you, you've always been a safe person to come to a trusted adult to come to then when things are not right, you know, they tell you, they let you know and you know them too, you're better able to be attuned to what's going on for them. You're more in sync with them, You're looking and watching and observing them too. Like that's part of conscious, respectful parenting is really knowing your kids, so that then, you know, if something is off right? 

Jen: Absolutely, Yes. You know, our kids, it is normal that our kids are gonna have some bad days and I start counting them happened recently, of course I have teenagers to where they're just kind of like, you know, they're not really engaged, We don't have disrespectful moments, but they're not really engaged. They kinda want to be on their own. So I give them a little bit of time, but it also when it reaches a certain point, I'm like, okay we've done this enough and I feel like we're moving in the wrong direction. 

So now we need to figure out, you know, ways to re-engage. So having that, you know, self-awareness of, you know yourself and what your child is going through helps divert and like I said, as soon as they start going off path a little bit, you can give them a little bit of leeway, but we can't let this continue. If it continues, then, you know, could lead to something like depression or anxiety, you know, that's self-isolation, so able to kind of I've caught it a couple of times with both my boys, like we've done this a little bit too much, we need to come up with a plan to get you back on track. So the normal ups and downs of teenagers but not letting it get out of control.

Laura: Yeah, I think that that's a key piece of like, of balancing, right? So, I mean, and that's part of what attachment is like as kids grow older too, is that the moving away and moving towards starts shifting and changing and we just kind of keep an eye on that, you know, they know that where they're secure base that they can always come back to us even when their teams and you know.

Jen: When they're adults and they need somebody to talk to, you still want to have that good relationship. I could go off on so many tangents, all of this, but, you know, just to let your listeners know, you know, just taking the time and having those conversations, having those conversations about the small things that you think might be annoying or don't matter, that's where they start to open up. 

So you have to have those small conversations for them to open up about the big things. I can not only speak for what research says, but I've gone through it too. So it works, it's great, but definitely, you know, when it comes to such a sensitive issue and something that is going on and it's so common in our society, we want to make sure as parents that we are meeting their needs as well, because what these pedophiles are doing is they're preying on the weaknesses and when a child's needs are not met, then they start meeting those needs. 

And if you think about it, we have a need to eat, you know, so often, and if we were to starve ourselves for so long and we were offered something that we knew was, you know, severely not healthy for us, but it would, you know, fulfill our hunger for that moment, like we go for that, right, we eat that cheeseburger, you know, and it's the same way with our emotional needs. Like if you're starving for emotional affection and quality time and the parents are not providing this, then somebody over here. 

That's exactly the way they work and they actually cause they have a name for it's called the Romeo technique to where they start to develop a friendship and give our children attention and start to create that relationship. And again, it goes back to 90% of the children who are sexually abused know their abuser 60% of those abusers are trusted by the family. So as parents, we have to make sure we're meeting all these needs. So our children aren't going someplace else in an unhealthy way to try to get those needs met and being taken advantage by others. 

Laura: Yeah. And pedophiles, not only groom children, they groom families too, they groom families to trust them so that they can be in that 60%. So what are some things that we can as parents look out for? So you're saying that one piece that we can do is make sure that our children like emotional needs are being met, that their cups are being filled by us. Like a true loving, healthy 1-to-1 relationship, a connection-based relationship. So that's one thing we can do. What can we be looking out for? 

Jen: There is a long list of symptoms anytime there is any kind of significant changes in your child's behavior. If they're great, start dropping if they, you know, their appetite significantly increases or decreases if your child, all of a sudden it wants to be more modest than usual. If, you know, older kids may use drugs and alcohol to try to cover up for some of the, you know, emotional response that they have, you know, there could be physical symptoms such as bruises, even choking marks. 

There's any kind of like sexually transmitted diseases pregnancies, those are some of the other physical symptoms. So depression and a lot of times in children and adolescent depression actually comes more across this irritability if there's increased fear, hopelessness or helplessness, increased anxiety, regress behavior. So if a child has achieved some milestones such as, you know, potty training and then all of a sudden they start, you know, having accidents again, this is, you know, assigned to be aware of, they have panic attacks, feel more paranoid, especially around a certain person, easily startled flat affect, which means that they don't really have much of emotional expression on their face

Laura: Liability, you know, up and down kind of.

Jen: Yeah, if they're deleting social media comments, trying to cover up if they, you know, had some, if there is some kind of relationship, there increased time on social media. 

Laura: One of my questions like as we get into the social media piece of this too, is that things have changed for families right now. We're not seeing the people that we used to see, we're not out in the world really and our kids really aren't out in the world without us most of the time right now at least those of us who have younger kids and you know, 14 and under really like we're spending a lot more time together, but kids are also spending a lot more time online too and I know like we spoke that you are not a tech safety expert, but I loved what you had to say about what we can do in terms of technology and keeping our kids safe because I hear from parents all the time, how their kids were on Youtube kids and they went down a rabbit hole and found things that they should not have been on there that shouldn't like got through the tags, got through the filters like so what can we do to be keeping our kids safe in this kind of digital age where they are online and using tech way more than ever before. 

Jen: The only thing at this point in time. Again, not having the knowledge of how technology works is just being right there with your child as they are using the electronics and checking in, like you said, there's a big scandal on Youtube last year in which pedophiles were commenting and having conversations with children on videos that were for children that we as parents would approve and you know, they're spending hours days that they're making this their career, the pedophiles in order to try to figure out how to get to our children. 

So you know right now is making sure that you are supervising your, especially young children, I do have confidence in, you know, older children to knowing what the appropriate boundaries and coming to us, you know, as long as you have that relationship with them and discuss, you know, here's some different ways that pedophiles work but still keeping some of those, you know, apps that monitor your child's, what they're doing online. 

Laura: Yeah. And so I think you raise a really good point that there are certain places where our kids go where they need supervision. If we were out like going to the mall, we might let our kids go to the mall and hang out but we might stay close by and shop nearby so that we can see them, you know, like a little bit of supervision. Youtube is one that my kids are not allowed to use without us sitting right next to them. 

We don't do anything else. The parent doesn't have their phone on them, we sit right next to them. Youtube is an app that like we don't use very often cause it's really scary to me, thank you for that. I think it's so important that like let our kids know like privacy is okay, especially as our kids age that's natural for them to want to keep things to themselves. It's natural for them to want to have privacy, but privacy and secrets aren't the same thing and they also deserve the gift of a parent who cares to monitor them, right? They deserve that as a child even if they don't always want it, what do you think about that? 

Jen: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And even though they don't, I mean they say that they don't want it. But I've seen kids who don't have that kind of care and those kind of boundaries and those kids do want the authoritative parents. And later on in life, the kids who did have the authoritative parents who gave them the, you know, the boundaries and you know, didn't let them to do everything they wanted. They appreciate that. And they actually have a better friendship with their parents as an adult because there was that respectful relationship and they understood why there were rules to keep them safe even if they didn't like them at the time. 

Laura: Yeah. Just like my three-year-old, you know, when my kids were three, they didn't like me stopping them from running into the street. They were annoyed by that. They wanted to run down into the street and I held their hands and held them while they cried and flailed and Said to them, it's my job to keep you safe. Like that looks different at 14 or 15 when we aren't letting them, you know, like saying like Tiktok needs to stay on the family iPad and not on your phone, you know, or whatever it is. Like they don't have to like all of our limits. And it's a conversation with older kids, right? Like we can collaborate to make the limit, you know, set the limits that allow for safe.

Jen: Yeah. And when they get older, it is more you got to think of adolescence as a transition. It's a transition that they should slowly be getting some more freedom as they prove that they have the responsibility. So by the time they get 17 they should be Having, you know, making a lot of decisions again, as long as they're staying within those boundaries because at 18 and if they plan to go off to college, we want to make sure that they're making good decisions when we're not there supervising them in college too, Even though it's only our responsibility to, you know, keep them safe till they're 18, we really want them to, you know, do well stay safe later on in life too. And that's how you set them up for success as you let them have, you know, a little bit of space and, and as they prove themselves, you can get grant them a little bit more freedom. 

Laura: Yes, exactly, Jennifer. I so agree. I grew up like with tight reins on me and when I got to college, hundreds of miles away from my parents, like the kind of, the training wheels were off and I was a little bit of a wreck for a while while I figured it out, you know, and I mean, and that's lots of people's stories. So I, I so agree with you on that. Okay, well, so I wanna be respectful of your time. I've loved having you here with us.

We have had quite a few people here watching. No questions have come in yet though. So I guess what is like if we had to sum up like thinking about taking a balanced approach to keeping our kids safe, Like thinking about like, okay, so we need to have well-educated kids because kids who know their body parts who are savvy are not good targets. Right? So we have well-educated kids, well-connected kids because those kids aren't good targets either. When people, you know, who are potential predators, see a kid with attentive parents connected parents, they move on to a different family. So, so like those were the two, like two big takeaways I feel like we got. And then one is another one?

Jen: as we're trying to juggle every piece of parenting and there's so many different things. Last week in my group, I did a training on how to help your child, like understand the signs of suicide and how to help your child with those. I think every month there should be a day, just like we have every month we pay bills every month. You know, there's a day that we pay bills. I think as parents, it's helpful to commit to a day to say, I'm gonna go over this list of symptoms here and make sure you know, my child is my child having any of these. 

So we are checking in every month to make sure that you know our child is staying on track and our child is not being abused and if they are, you know also having that direct conversation giving them permission because even though we tell them like, oh you can come to us from the perspective of a seven-year-old, it's still very nerve-racking to think, I have to tell my mom that somebody did something that they weren't supposed to do and am I responsible for this at all? 

But with the parent directly asking and saying, you know how we have this conversation about you know staying safe, you know, has there been anybody who touched you lately or you know and just giving that you can identify a lot sooner if it ever does happen. So I think having once-a-month check-ins at least with your kids, I would recommend more, but you're gonna save your kids from going off the rails too far.

Laura: I love that idea of like a regular kind of almost like a habit check in like, like a family culture piece and like in our family, we check in with each other, we check in on ourselves and we check in with each other, I think like helping kids to like learn to check in with themselves, like we can help them learn that really important skill that many of us don't have because many of us, we're so kind of numbed by our childhood. 

We got the message that our big feelings weren't important. We got the message that, like, if we were bumped our toe, like stubbed our toe and started crying, we heard like, that doesn't hurt. It's no big deal. Like, many of us were trained to not listen to our bodies to not listen to our feelings. So I love this idea of kind of proactively teaching kids to check-in. 

You know, were there any times when you were talking to someone and you got an icky feeling in your tummy? Like, like those types of questions can be really helpful and just to check in, like, and not even just for the abuse piece, but the, like, just the normal, like, how's it going? You know, many of us don't check in with ourselves, right? And all of a sudden were depressed or anxious and our hearts are racing and we're having a panic attack and if we had just been checking in along the way, maybe wouldn't have gotten to that point, right? 

Jen: Absolutely. You know, processing those feelings like it's okay, feelings are very normal and just acknowledging this is how I feel, it's normal that I feel this way and sitting with your feelings for a little bit and then it can be relieved instead of it stuffed on top of each other to where we eventually explode, exploding, you know, with anger outbursts or depression or anxiety and in our culture, especially with children and teens, we have more of those psychosomatic symptoms to where they can make themselves physically sick because they have so much stress. So they're getting a tummy ache or the headaches and so those are so important. Yeah, If we can just, that's my approach, let's just be proactive for humans. You know, there's things we have to do to take care of ourselves. Just as you know, when we were growing up, it was all about physical health and exercise and diet. It's like, what happened to mental health, you know, why aren't we taking care of our mental health proactively? You know.

Laura: I love that. I think that that's so important. And, and again, like that brings us back to this idea that kids who have invested interested parents who are savvy, who and kids themselves who are savvy and who have deep, like good connections with their parents, a healthy relationship. Those kids are safer. They are, they're not good targets. And so we can kind of protect our kids by building those things, right? 

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. You know, you've just spoken up about, you know, feeling more controlled and you know, when we were young, we weren't allowed to speak up as much and my husband kind of gets mad at the kids sometimes because you know, I'll say, you know what you think about dinner and he's like, oh, my son might say, you know, it wasn't your best or something like that and he's my husband gets so mad, I'm like, no, he's being honest, it wasn't my best, I'm okay with that.

But those are the types of things I see that he's more, they're both of them are more willing to speak up for themselves outside of the home because they felt comfortable just saying no peers where I'm at, here's how I'm feeling about it. And so I think that's something as parents, we have to remember to of like we're conditioning our kids on how they're gonna respond to others. So we allow them to say, you know what I don't like when you tickle me so that way it's and we respect that they can say that when the uncles tickling them or something, you know like that. So we have to remember that our interaction is the foundation for what they're going to be doing out in the world. 

Laura: Yes, absolutely. And not just on the big stuff, but on the very little like day to day, we are teaching them what it means to be in a consensual, respectful, authentic relationship each and every day, each and every interaction and sometimes like I was just talking with my girlfriend this weekend about like how like mind-blowingly big that is like we were both talking about things that we've kind of said like off the cuff that our daughters like bring back to us and they're like, mom remember when you said that, I was like, whoa! And luckily most of these times they were good things, but you think like they're listening, they're learning, they're watching us and they're learning from their experience with us about like, means to be in a mutually satisfactory and you know, respectful relationship as they grow. It's the biggest, most important job we've ever had, right? 

Jen: Yes. The toughest, but the most rewarding for sure. 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for being here with us. Jennifer has a deep dive training on this topic and it sounds like other really cool monthly trainings in her Facebook group because it takes a village and the link to that is in the show notes, if you're listening to this on the podcast and she also has a book that you can get on amazon that looks amazing and I'm downloading it as soon as we get off here, Jen, thank you for being with us and sharing your wisdom with us. I really appreciate it. 

Jen: Thank you so much for having me. We just need to make sure parents mean the absolute best, but again, they weren't given instructions with the baby with the hand of the baby. So it's our jobs in our mission just to make sure they have this information so that they can keep their kids safe and we can keep more and more kids safe.

Laura: Absolutely, yes. And speaking of that. So if you are in my balancing you membership community, which is my paid membership for members who are in like my courses, Jen is also going to give us like 1 to 1 deep dive training on these topics too. So yes, I will be looking forward to talking with you again, Jen in the membership and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and very like, I don't know, comforting information, like I think sometimes when we start talking about this topic it can feel really scary, but when we realize how much power and influence we have to keep our kids safe, that feels empowering to me and this was a very empowering, like comforting conversation, so thank you for framing it in that way for us. 

Jen: Well thanks for having me.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

Episode 130: Helping Your Child Get Comfortable With Going To Therapy with Jamie Edelbrock

If you are a parent to a kiddo who is struggling with behavior issues, anxiety, or ADHD, my heart goes out to all of you. Please know that you are not alone. There is support available to you and that is why for this week's episode, we are going to talk about what we can do when one of our kids need help. This is something I have coached a few moms through in my membership, and if you'd like to listen in, those replays are available inside.

To help me in this conversation on the podcast, I brought in a mom who has been right where you are, Jamie Edelbrock. She is married to her high school sweetheart and together they have three daughters. She has worn many hats, some of which include a homeschool mom, preschool director, family ministry director, blogger and author of the children’s book “Tangled Up.” She wrote this book after her starting therapy with her child.

Here's a summary of our conversation:

  • Importance of children’s mental health (anxiety, ADHD) and how we can support them

  • How to deal with parenting guilt

  • Relationship VS dictatorship in parenting


If you want to learn more, visit Jamie's website www.jamieedelbrock.com and follow her on Instagram @tangledupbook.

Episode 129: Supporting Anxious Kids without Making Things Worse with Dawn Friedman

For this week's episode on The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to dig in into childhood anxiety and specifically delve into the most common missteps that well-meaning parents of anxious kids make that actually end up increasing anxiety in the long run. As a parent to an anxious kiddo, I've found myself caught in a few of these traps and I think my conversation with Dawn Friedman, therapist and child anxiety expert will be so helpful. .

Here's an overview of what we talked about:

  • What to do when your anxious kiddo is always coming to you for reassurance

  • Getting clear on your roles with your kid’s anxiety (what's "yours" and "theirs")

  • Knowing when it’s time to seek support for your kiddos and yourself

If you are looking for more support, visit childanxietysupport.com and follow Dawn on Instagram @dawnfriedmanmsed and on her Facebook page, Child Anxiety Support.

RESOURCES:
Anxiety Relief for Kids by Bridget Flynn Walker (book)
Just Breathe by Julie Bayer Salzman & Josh Salzman (video)
Worry Jar


TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen. And on this episode of the balanced parent podcast we are talking with Dawn Friedman and we're gonna dig into childhood anxiety and how to help our anxious kiddos actually cope with being anxious from a place of respect and compassion but without enabling them. 

So we're gonna dig into this conversation. This is actually something that comes up for me a lot in my clinical practice, you know with my clients and in my own home, I've got an anxious kid in myself, so don I'm really excited to have this conversation. Welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? 

Dawn: Well, thank you so much for having me. I am a therapist in Columbus, Ohio. I work with little kids, big kids, teens and adults, but I don't really get to work with kids very much because of Covid, I had to shut my office and I also run childanxietysupport.com, which is a membership and psycho education support group and course for parents of anxious kids. 

Laura: Amazing. I think that's so needed. The way that I see anxiety is that it's this for some people, they're kind of anxiety meter is turned up and it will likely be that way their whole lives that they will, you know, they, it's just the way we're wired and we have to learn to cope with it and the earlier the better understanding how the brain works, how anxiety works its role in our lives and but what I see a lot with folks who are in the respectful and conscious parenting world, you know, these really beautiful, well intentioned family members, parents who are really looking to support their kids. They want to make sure that their kids feel seen and heard and validated, not dismissed and in doing so they lean into the anxieties and the worries. Do you see this too ?

Dawn: I do. And because that's really who my clients come from here in Columbus, Ohio we have a couple of really great, wonderful respectful preschools and they send a lot of clients my waste a lot of anxious kids my way. They're really good at catching those kids in their programs and figuring out those kids need extra support. 

And I have found that those of us in the respectful parenting community are so attuned to our children that we tend to get lost in our kids anxiety. And I think there's a couple things that are going on there and one is that high intensity parents like us who care very deeply about doing a good job are often coming to it from an anxious place ourselves often because we are trying to re parent through, we're trying to do something differently than was done in our own family. And so we tend to project our own fears and worries onto our kids a little bit. 

And also if we're high intensity, high sensitive people, it's no wonder that our kids inherit our brains and they are also high intensity, high sensitive kids. And I think those two things make us sometimes get stuck in anxiety loops with each other and I am absolutely anti parent blame. I do not do that. I know and trust that the parents who come to my office are doing their best and just need a little support to tweak it a bit so they can figure out how to support their kids' anxiety instead of accommodating their kids anxiety.

Laura: Yeah, I love this supporting instead of accommodating. I think one of the things that is so important for us to understand is that for like you said many of us who have anxious kids were anxious kids ourselves and that was my experience, I was an anxious kid, nobody saw that are recognized that, that what was happening, you know, I had tummy aches you know all the time like and they took me to doctors, no one saw it for what it was, it wasn't a thing in the eighties you know that we were looking for at least not in the midwest and I know blame to my parents but I think that for lots of us we who experienced anxiety as kids that are coming, you know, coming to the realization of like oh that's what it was now, how do I do it differently for my kids and we're but we're still thinking about like what we think we wanted as kids and then we go and do that for our kids.

So like the you know six year old anxious Laura wanted someone to comfort her and see her and validate her and so then I go and do that to my own anxious kid and give those things and that's actually not what I necessarily needed. I needed more cognitive tools to start working with my thought process is working you know, playing around with the thoughts and the worries that were coming in into my head and so I think we have the best of intentions, we never want to dismiss our kids feelings, we want to be fully present with them and but at the same time we didn't know what we needed as kids, we knew what we thought we needed, but we didn't actually know what we really needed. 

Dawn: I feel like I know it's totally making sense and I also have an anxious kid and I get stuck in a reassurance loop with her because she keeps coming to me for reassurance and then she's reliant on me to reassure her. Yeah, really, what I need to do is sometimes walk away, which is really difficult because I think the thing is about respectful parents is we're really good at talking and so sometimes we talk too much instead of saying you've got this and now I need to go away from you which is 

Laura: Anxiety provoking for us because the last thing we want to do is feel like that we are making our kids feel abandoned by us too. Right. 

Dawn: Yes, abandoned. Yes, always. And and the thing I tell parents though is when you're coming in from this because we cannot take any particular parenting decision or choice or behavior out of the context of the big, beautiful relationship we're building and if you have a big, beautiful, respectful relationship, then there is room for you to push back on them a little bit that's going to be okay saying to your child, you've got this, you can handle that is not the same thing as taking them out into the woods and say good luck, get home on your own kid. But it feels like that sometimes to us that that's what we're doing. 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I had this moment that came up this morning, my own family with my own anxious kiddo, my husband and I are both anxious. My daughter got a double whammy, a double dose of it. She has some mask acne popping up and she's nine and she went to her dad about it because she had noticed it and he kind of said like, oh it's probably nothing and just dismissed it and then she came to me crying that her dad had just dismissed it, that she, so she had this big worry about her skin and then this other, you know, feeling of being dismissed. 

So I know what I did in that moment, but it's really tempting to get into one of those reassurance loops, you know, and so I'm curious about like what do we do with that when our anxious kid is coming to us for reassurance and we desperately want to give it to them, especially when it's their worried over something small or nonsensical, what do we do, especially if we've kind of unknowingly and with the best of intentions, notice listener that dear sweet listener that Dawn and I both think you're wonderful parents with the best of intentions. We've created some of this reassurance loop pattern. I love that phrase. What do we do with that? 

Dawn: Well, first of all, we're going to validate that they're upset right? Like you said, that's really what they're looking for. But now they're kind of looking for us to fix it and understand that the anxiety is all about avoidance. How can I avoid this yucky feeling? How can I avoid the risk of this yucky feeling. So maybe she's worried somebody's gonna make fun of her, maybe she's gosh, that's a tough age and maybe she's just feeling bad about herself and I'm not sure what's going on with her, but there's some avoidance in there that she's trying to help ask you to avoid this yucky feeling that she's having right?

Laura: For her, it's the fear of the unknown. She just wants to know what it is like if I just say it's a pimple, you know, it's fine, but if I say I don't, I'm not entirely sure what that is or why that's there, then that amplifies her anxiety. Just.

Dawn: So I would say validate, which is not validate that the fear is real validate that she's having the fear, which again is tricky sometimes when we start like getting ahead, I'm going to try to make sense of this and if I don't tell me about that. So your child comes and says, I'm worried about this on my face and you start, oh it's probably not that you might be getting ahead of it and you haven't heard the validation. And first you just seem to say, I hear you're worried about this. 

Laura: Yeah, I just want to hold to the light what you're saying. So it is our instinct to jump to the reassurance that they don't need to worry about this thing. Oh it's fine, it's gonna be okay and then we need to stay in validating. Not that they have every right to be concerned about it, but validating that they are concerned, right? You about this a lot. Right now you're worried about that you noticed this bump on your skin, you picked it and made it bleed and now that it's got you concerned. Just that's what it sounds. 

I think it's really helpful for people to hear like what that sounds like versus like, oh you're really worried about that. Going to like, oh yes, I mean, gosh, we don't know what that is. You know, and that's really scary to not know what it is. You know, there's a difference between those two things. Like you can almost hear it in the tone of the voice. One is can amplify the unknown. And we also like you said, don't want to skip the step of validating where they are, their current emotional state.

Dawn: So we're just stating it, right, stating stating it and then we have to stop, which again is hard for us because we love to talk, we're really good at it and then we need to not go towards solving it because that can feel dismissive and again, this is what we tend to do because we're really good at it, we emphasis and validate so much that again, exactly what you were saying, then we are making it worse, like Yes, so what we need to do for ourselves is notice that we're getting caught into their anxiety.

Personal anxiety is super super, super catching. It needs to be because as a species we need to catch when somebody in our environment is anxious for our own safety. So if a kid is anxious we're gonna feel anxious, they're gonna catch it and we're just are ratcheting each other up 

Laura: It's like a ladder. Like where you're climbing up the anxiety ladder together when really what we wanna do is notice what wrong of the anxiety ladder the kid is on, meet them there and then help them down the ladder.

Dawn: Yes, because they're gonna borrow our brain, you have to calm our brain down before you rush to be with your kid, be with yourself and notice that you feel yucky, make sure you're breathing for me. I always notice my shoulders go up to my ears, I have to drop them and then we can be neutral with so what would you like to do about it or would you like to try this? Like then we might go towards problem solving depending on the child's age Because at a certain age we want to scaffold their own problem solving.

So how you respond to a three year old who's anxious is obviously really different than how we respond to a 13 year old, but we need to be cognizant of that because sometimes we're we're forgetting that it's our child's job to move themselves through discomfort to a solution or even there's not a solution, they just need to figure out how to calm their own bodies down. 

Laura: Yeah, how to sit in the kind of the uncomfortableness of whatever it is that's going on for them. There was like a glimmer of something in what you just said that was, I think so important for parents to here too is that we have to get clear on who owns the anxiety whose anxiety is it like you were saying before that it's really catching and I think that we take on responsibility for our kids anxiety that it is our job to soothe airworthy, It's our job to help them not, you know, make them not have the worry anymore or get rid of the worry. 

So I'm kind of curious about that, like what are some things that parents can do to kind of help them feel really settled and firm in like this is my child's worry, this is my child's anxiety talking, not mine. And it's their job to manage it. And it's my job to teach them tools like how do we get clear on our roles with our kids anxiety?

Dawn: I love that you asked that because I have been thinking about it a lot and I've been thinking that we as parents would really help us if we just gave ourselves a chance to sort of run with our anxiety for our kids, gave ourselves a safe space away from our child with someone, maybe that's a therapist, maybe that's a partner, maybe that's with a friend, maybe it's just with our journal that we wrote down all of our fears and worries and just gave them space because we're running from that too. 

And I noticed when I was teaching parenting classes, we would be talking about a problem and the model of the parenting classes I thought was that we would list the problem and then we would explain why it was a problem and we'd often dig into it and maybe the problem was my child, I won't put on their shoes in the morning that every single group I taught there would be a five year old who wouldn't put this and reel down.

Often the parents would spiral all the way to, I'm afraid that they won't be able to get a job because they won't be able to get their shoes on and then they'll be homeless and no one will love them and I think we need to have space to acknowledge that things feel that big so that we can start recognizing this is coming from an existential fear that I want my child to have a good life, It's not just about acne under a mask, it's I want them to be loved, and I want them to love themselves. And because when we recognize the way that we spiral in a safe place, then we can start seeing when it's happening in other places too. And I know this sounds so big, but I think these big existential worries really drive our everyday worries with our kids.

Laura: Yeah, I think so too. You know, I'm just as you were talking about this, like, is there a space and room for that too? For doing some of that kind of like going down the worry path with our kids to giving them space for, you know, kind of taking the worry far as far as it goes.

Dawn: I think there can be. I think with very young children, there isn't so much of a need. Their worries are pretty clear, like, I'm afraid of monsters under the bed, I'm afraid they will eat me. 

Laura: And that abstract thought, that kind of existentialism, you know, for the younger kids isn't as there. Although I think I do think that young kids, I feel like at five, I feel like is when existential crises start coming up for kids, you know, big questions. 

Dawn: And then so I see kids in my office, they show up at five, they show up at eight and then they start showing up in their teens and I think you're exactly right. I think five is an age where those things start coming up  

Laura: When did the universe said there’s a big existential question?

Dawn: You know, it's a reason why five year olds are all afraid of robbers because they realize there's a world out there. So I think it depends because with some kids, I think running with that spiral might be too much. And so I think, you know, it's very, very individual. But especially as kids get older, I think that is a really good CBT tool, is to say, let's make an appointment for your anxiety or to say to your child when they come home from school, You can go off on all of your anxious things and bad things that happened for 15 minutes. We're going to set a timer and because what they need is to learn how to contain those worries, that container. 

Laura: Okay, so a lot of parents who come to me feel ill equipped to handle their children's anxiety, most of them are in therapy themselves for their own anxiety for the first time in their mid thirties and they're learning these CBT tools. So CBT stands for cognitive behavioral therapy, it's one of the best approach is the most well researched approaches for working with anxious thoughts, it doesn't cure anxiety, it helps you live and cope with it and it kind of be partnered with it and work alongside it. 

Right. And so for parents who are in this situation where they're noticing like their kids, they're in this may be a reassurance sleep where their kid is coming to them with a lot of worries or they're noticing some anxiety symptoms. How does a parent know when it's time to seek support for themselves and helping their kids versus getting their kid into into a therapist's office? And I have a follow up question to that question too.

Dawn: Okay, I always tell people the time to ask for help and get help is when you feel stuck. So if you feel stuck then that's a good time to get help period. There doesn't have to be a particular point, although I will say as I'm thinking about this, so I get a lot of parents and I bet you do too that what is bringing them to therapy is in our community. 

A lot of co sleeping and the kid is 89, 10, 12, and the parents are ready to be done with co sleeping or the child is ready to be done with co sleeping in the continuum of co sleeping, maybe they're still laying down with their 11 year old and they want to be able to not do that. I have no, I say whatever parenting works for you. Great, so I don't co sleeping is working. I don't think it's a problem if you're co sleeping with the bigger kid unless you don't like it, or they don't like it.

Laura: And then 100%, yes, yeah, 100% agree that, like, if it's not broke, don't fix it and yes, families all over the world sleep with their kids, it doesn't work just until it doesn't work for one of them, then it changes. So yes, 100% agree. 

Dawn: So basically, if you feel stuck whether it's in something like co sleeping or getting out the door from school or you just feel overwhelmed what's going on for your child, then it is time to get help. And that is different for every family.

Laura: Wonderful. Good. I think that lots of parents think like, oh, it's not so bad or oh, we're doing okay. And so they wait until it is more, I think earlier can be better. Even it's just getting support for yourself and kind of getting ahead, get building your toolkit so you can help them if you're noticing some stuff coming up for your kids.

But yeah, I still agree with you now, I feel the problem I'm seeing in my community is in the families who are coming to me because I'm not an active practicing therapist at this point in time. I do, I focus on coaching in courses, the wait lists are sometimes a year long to get in. And so if we're waiting until you're really stuck, then you've got another six months, seven months, eight months before you get to actually see a therapist. That can feel like a long time. 

Dawn: That's true. Especially right now because very few of us who see kids in my community, we are offices aren't open and so the very youngest children are not being seen And it's hard to do virtual with a five year old. Yeah, I think the youngest I work with is 9,10 depending on the child and I've got a couple of colleagues. They're pretty burned out though, where they're they're not going much younger either. But also, and this is to be reassuring, the research shows that what is more effective than just therapy with the child is parent training. Yeah.

Laura: I just did a big yes listener you can't see me.

Dawn: Yeah, she did a fist pump. So which is why I did my program and I know there are other people doing programs too and it's just like finding a good therapist, you find somebody that you click with, there's a lot of us who have switched to virtual work right now. Find someone who you click with and yeah, start working with them. Start learning, as you said, anxiety is a lifetime thing. We need anxiety to keep us safe and to make sure that we meet our deadlines and all of those things, we just need to learn how to cope with it and and that since that's a lifetime thing, we can always be learning new stuff, I love doing the research because then I go, oh here's something I can try with my kids now.

Laura: Yeah, I love that and but not everybody has, you know, like I look at my desk right now in front of me out of view of the camera and it's got 10 parenting books on it, not everybody, you know, can can spend time reading all those books, it's so wonderful to have folks like you and your colleagues who work in the anxiety world who are distilling the information down into bite sized pieces that parents can quickly go and implement and I fist pumped because I was, you know, leading you to that place of really understanding, helping parents come to understand that truly you're the best person for this job in helping your kids and that's what all the research says and there's a really good reason for it because you already have an attachment relationship with these kids, you know.

And attachment relationships are beautifully healing there and the ideal context for for doing good work with kids, there's lots of wonderful tools that parents can learn and start using with their kids now, some kids, my kids know that I'm a feelings doctor and sometimes they don't like it when I slip into that role and so sometimes, you know, there's certain dynamics where you do need outside help or you need someone else and you know, there's school counselors that are usually well trained in CBT to can help. But one of my favorite books for this topic that I recommend to my clients all the time is Anxiety Relief for Kids by Bridget Flynn walker. Have you seen that one?

Dawn: I'm looking up to see if it's on my shop with my kindle,

Laura: So that one is one of my favorite ones and it basically just teaches the parrot how to do CBT. I love it, but not everybody likes to work in learning from books. So when you're working with families, what is like three of your favorite kind of anxiety stopping tools or anxiety, you know, tools that you, that you're quick and easy that parents can implement, I want you to give away all your secrets. But,

Dawn: I was gonna say it's so hard because it's so depends on the kids, every kid who comes in my office already knows how to breathe. In fact, they're pretty sick of it. So stick with the breathing. You guys don't give it up, but understand that has a limit and very often the kids don't understand why they're breathing. So there's actually a great video and I think it's just called breathe and it's specifically about anger, I can see you're googling, I'm gonna see if I can google for it.

Laura: I'll put it into the show notes, my team will put it into the show or if you send me the link will pop it in. 

Dawn: Yeah, it's Just Breathe by Julie Bayer Salzman, Josh Salzman. Yes, it's terrific. And I show that to kids because it's kids actually explaining brain science and talking about breathing and it's specifically about anger, but I show it in all of my trainings, it's so terrific. So that is one of my favorite things. The other thing is we were talking about.

Laura: Wait, hold on, just a second. I love that. I think kids want to be in the know they want to know their how their brain works. And I think so often times when we use like take a deep breath the and beautiful, wonderful, well intentioned parents, you know? Yes, but I think when we, we say that to our kids, they interpret it to mean calm down a little dismissive or a little bit like don't be this way anymore.

It feels like put a lid on it, stuff it down kind of, you know, I know that that's not the intention that most parents have when they tell their kids to breathe, but I think that's the way it gets interpreted and there's lots of ways that miscommunication can happen between parents and children, I know exactly what you mean. So many kids, I feel like come into my practice and they're like, if I get told to breathe one more time but I love that idea of having them, you know what the breath is doing for them, That's beautiful. Okay, alright and then you would talk video.

Dawn: That's a great one. And then with about containers. So one of the things that I did in my office off and I have a sand tray and the kids would build their worries in the sand tray and then we would put a lid on it and they would leave it at my office and you can do that at home. So you can that can look like a lot of different ways with an older kid that can journal their worries. Like I was saying we can and then shut it that we can draw pictures of it and we can crumple up those pictures or tear up those pictures. 

You can even you're outside, you can put them in the fire pit depending, you know people but there are ways to build containers. You can even have a worry jar where kids put in their worries and then screw the lid on it. It's gonna look different for every kid. But it does give them the idea that you can have worries. You don't need to solve them. You can visualize that container. You can give them a literal container to help them with that visualization. I remember when I was in fifth grade and I was having trouble with multiplication and up all night worried about it. 

And of course again we didn't know it was anxiety and I created a visualization for myself where I would put them the multiplication tables in a shoebox, put the shoe box on a shelf, shut the door to that room and it was the only way I could go to sleep. So sometimes I tell kids about that and invite them to think about. 

Laura: Aren't kids brilliant. I think kids are amazing. You came up with that, you know that that was something that you just intuitively knew how to do. I think we got to trust our kids to in this process of helping them figure out. 

So teaching kids that that worries can be contained and put away and then helping them come up with what do you think is the best way for your worries to be contained or put away? Some kids are worried that they'll forget about the worries, They don't want to burn it. Some kids want the worry gone and sent away. I think kids are brilliant. I think we can trust them to know those things. They just, sometimes a little nudge in the right direction, you know around this piece. I love that making the container for the listeners who follow me on Instagram. 

I do have a highlight on my Instagram page where my daughter and I made her worry jar together. So if you, you know, if your listeners are looking for like a visual of what that can look like. Hers has a dragon in the bottom who guards her berries because she gets very concerned that she'll forget to worry about something. 

And so she has a dragon and her worry jar who guards it? Another one that my clients love on Amazon, you can get this paper called flying wish paper. It's kind of just like tissue paper and you can draw or write your worry on it and then you roll it up into a cylinder and light it on fire and it flies up into the air and it's safe to do inside, which is super cool. Okay, so container, that's number two.

Dawn: Let's see what's another one. I'm trying to think of something because I use those with even younger kids and I'm trying to think of something that I do with older kids. Well this is less about anxiety in particular, but I think it's really helpful is I am a great believer, like you said, kids want to know how things work. And so one of the things and I just talked about this on my Instagram is so I'm holding this up for you to see, I have these really short, these are child development, like one page, this is what your eight year old does is what your 10 year old does. 

And of course I have a lot of child development books on my bookshelves and I will invite kids to read those with me to talk about what's going on for them. So, Oh, I can't remember what age it is, I can't remember if it's eight or nine, but there's an age where kids are terrible tattletales. 6-7 is a tattletale. 7-8 is nobody likes me, I'm going to run away.

But also this is they worry about cheating, but they'll cheat themselves to win and they feel bad about themselves. I remember this, I remember feeling like there is something wrong with me, I can't do these things and so I often tell kids you are not supposed to do these things. Look in this book, this is actually what you're supposed to be working on. You are growing, you're going to get better at this. We have that vision or at least sometimes we need help having that vision for our child because we are afraid for them. 

But if we can hold that for them, you are growing, you are getting better all the time. This is not always going to be that scary. And we can show them, we can literally sit down and say, look eight year olds worry about that. It's okay, you're not always going to be this undone by your worry. And that is, I find so many kids have such relief, you know, the latter age, so older, elementary and early teens, it's all identity formation. 

So we don't want them to become so identified with their anxiety that to give it up would be to lose a piece of themselves. So we want to let them know that they are growing and anxiety may be a part of their experience but it is not who they are. And for those of us who have anxiety, we can appreciate how much that can make us feel stuck. So we can help them not be stuck about it. 

Laura: Oh my gosh, yes. This who am I without my anxiety, who would I be? Yeah, it can be scary to let go of piece of your identity. So if we've got young kids and we are starting to feel like they're anxiety is very close to who they are, like they feel like they are their anxiety or they are their worry, how can we go about helping them get some distance kind of right from the beginning, objectifying and you know, moving it outside of themselves so that they can really look at it and see it as this is I have an anxious part of me, I have worries in me but they're not me, do you know what I mean? Like how can we help them with that from the beginning?

Dawn: I think there's a couple of ways and again, your mileage may vary with your child and I think you made a really good point too that if you sort of have an anxiously shaped brain, if you have a brain that's prone to anxiety, your brain is going to be a part of you all of your life and so you're gonna need to learn how to come alongside it.

Right? So I think part of it is letting them know that there are many aspects of their brain so that the kind of people who tend to be anxious temperament traits, they tend to be high intensity so we can let them know you're a big feelings person, you feel things big, you feel joy big, you feel worry big because then it's not just anxiety, it's these other wonderful qualities. High sensitivity is a temperament trait associated with anxiety and we can say you're a pretty sensitive person, you're gonna need to take care of yourself. 

And that might be particularly worrisome day, you need to wear your squishy pants so you feel a little more comfortable in your body. And the other thing is a temperament trait that is highly associated with anxiety is negativity and and all this negativity gets a bad rap because it's so negative. But the truth is negativity as a gift. If I'm being operated on by a surgeon, I want a surgeon who is able to spot worries who is able to say I need to double check, I didn't leave my sponge in my patients. 

That's a negativity trait, negativity trade is somebody who can spot concerns and plan for them. What a great quality, we just don't want to be run by those. So it's terrific if you remember to pack an umbrella because it might rain. It's not terrific if you're so worried about rain, that you can't fall asleep the night before the picnic. So helping them understand this is a temperament trait. It has wonderful qualities, but you're the boss of it. It is not the boss of you. So, so that's part of it for younger children. What is sometimes useful? 

And actually my 17 year old daughter has found this useful, is naming the anxiety because that helps make it more like a companion and her therapist. And I thought this is great. So I hope that he doesn't mind that I'm sharing this. You can also feel it is he said, I'm gonna call your anxiety Nicholas Sparks because it always makes you cry. And so she'll say Nicholas Sparks is going off in my head right now, but it helps her separate herself from that feeling she's having.

Laura: I love that. Yes, okay, those are beautiful things. I asked you for those kind of three things. Right? So, breathing. Really understand why you're breathing, containing it, normalizing. It was that third one. They're really helping them understand that this is a normal part of development and that they are not alone in it. 

This kind of this common humanity that they are. It's very developmentally appropriate for them to be concerned about these things. And then this last piece of taking a look at it. Kind of befriending it coming alongside it and seeing it outside of yourself, I think that those are beautiful. So you mentioned your daughter's therapist helped her come up with the name Nicholas Sparks cause her anxiety always makes her cry and it just reminded me that sometimes anxiety can present in other ways too, right? 

So some kids get really worried and and tearful with their worries, but often times for kids, anxiety can look like anger and angry outbursts, big dis regulation and so can we just closing in on our time. But for those parents who, I think it's just really important that we can start seeing some of those anger hitting yelling, I hate you through an anxiety lens. Can you talk for a minute on that too. 

Dawn: You know, I always say that the kids who come to my office either anxious or angry and all the angry kids are anxious, I think that's actually incredibly, incredibly common because anger or anxiety is either inward and that often looks like depression or its outward and that looks like behavior problems and so I think that is, yes, that is incredibly important to see and it makes sense because it's fight flight or freeze, right? 

And so some of those kids are fighting if you have a kid who is angry, what I have noticed is those parents are actually accommodating it a lot more because the anger is scary and the anger is a kid who trashes their room who hits parents or and this really scares parents is hitting themselves or is saying things like I hate myself, I want to die, you hate me, you don't love me. Those are really scary. 

If that's happening then I think that is a clear sign that you need and deserve help and support because that is really tough stuff and you need someone who's not gonna be blaming, who's not going to be say saying oh it's because you've given him too much leeway, I wouldn't let my kid get away with that. Those are not helpful comments, I understand how parents get there and you need to find someone who understands how you got there and it's going to help you start getting out of it and I say this with great love and concern, it will get worse before it gets better because they have learned to amp up and so when you are no longer accommodating they're going to try what works which is amping it up a little further but we can plan for that. We can plan for that while we're helping them learn how to manage their anxiety. 

Laura: Okay Yes, I love everything you just said and it just made me think of another question so what does it look like to no longer accommodate your child's anxiety? I feel like a classic one that I hear parents in the respectful community, parenting community get caught up in is my child is scared to go to the bathroom alone or my child is scared to go to you know upstairs alone when we are no longer accommodating things like that. What does it look like?

Dawn: We're gonna take little tiny bites, little tiny steps. We're not just going to throw your kid to the world's parents are always worried about that. So the parents were going to choose where is the place that you want to stop accommodating and it has to be comfortable for you. So parents often come to it and say I don't think my child will be able to do that but we're not talking about your kid yet. We're talking about your accommodation. 

So where is it that you feel most comfortable stopping that accommodation or what are you most tired of doing? So if you really want to pee with the door shut then that's a good start. That's that can be what it is. You're not going to do all the separation anxiety, you're not going to try to to make them go to the birthday party themselves, you're just going to try to pee by yourself. Yes, I say I love you very much and I know you can handle this and I'm going to pee by myself and then you're going to do it and they're gonna wail and cry and bang on the door and you're gonna feel guilty and you might be in there crying while you pee but you know what then you're both gonna have done it and you're gonna have tolerated your child's discomfort with it. And your child is gonna realize they can do it. Now. 

You may make a particular plan for that child. Like would you like to do this thing while mommy pee’s? I would say don't do anything that is going to make your life harder. Like mommy will put on a show for you because maybe you don't have time to put on a show every time you go pee, right? But it's about you learning to tolerate your child's discomfort so your child can learn to tolerate their discomfort and then big celebration for everybody because you did it lots of hugging lots of cheering, lots of bragging about what a great job your kid did. So they can brag about themselves. 

But it is those baby steps because as your child learns to tolerate discomfort in small ways, they can start bringing that to other things and you start pointing out to them, you're a really brave person. You can do these hard things. Remember how you let me pee with the door shut, you're a hero. So I wonder what you can do next. 

Laura: Yeah, I love that. And I think that anxious kids also like to hear like I knew you could do it do that. I like that kind of that like assurance that like my parents knew I could do this. Yes, we are worried, we weren't worried that you could do this. We knew you when you were ready. You would you would be able to do this. 

Dawn: And that is the really hard thing to because again, as wonderful loving parents and I see parents do this a lot. They undermine without meaning to. So they'll say to their child, okay, you're gonna do the thing and the kid goes great and then the parent goes, so you're gonna do the thing, right? So you've got this right? Like they don't realize they think they're being reassuring, but actually they're sending the message of their kids. I don't think she thinks I can do this. So you can have a lot of those feelings. I always say I can go to my husband with all of my fears and all so that I don't visit them on my kids, right? So I say to the kids, you got this, what's going on? You need to have an outlet. Have an outlet and a place for your own fears too. But don't visit them on your kids

Laura: And project that confidence.

Dawn: Oh, it's hard work. We can we can do hard things. 

Laura: We can. It is so, oh my gosh, don this was such a great conversation, thank you so much for this. I want to make sure I have your links already. We'll put them in the show notes. But I do just why don't you let people know where they can find you because some people like to hear it verbally where they can find you on Instagram and figure out how to get to work with you. Your membership sounds amazing.

Dawn: I'm pretty being excited about this membership. So you can find me on Instagram at Dawn Friedman MSED. And you can find me on Facebook at child anxiety support and my website is childanxietysupport.com. If you go there you can download an anxiety assessment and once you've done that you can schedule a 20 minute call with me if you want to talk about the assessment and I'm not always gonna tell you that the membership is a good fit for you. Sometimes I'm gonna recommend you do something else first because I want you to do, it's going to be most effective. 

And then if the membership does seem like a good fit, It's 30 days free because we're parents were busy and I wanted to give you lots of time to forget to log on to the membership and then remember to log on to it. And then the Child anxiety Support program has a course called Strong Kids Strong Families, which is about managing accommodations, turning those into supports and CBT Family, which is a library of resources, of ways to bring CBT learning to your family and a bunch of other stuff too. Plus people who understand where you're coming from and I'm always available in the membership. 

Laura: I love that. I think community is really important. I think that parenting these kiddos can feel really, really lonely, especially like it's lonely enough when we're doing things differently than the mainstream parenting anyway. And then to add in this extra layer of having an anxious kiddo, it can be really lonely. I think that community is so beautiful and, and Dawn I really appreciate the the integrity that you just spoke about this with. I think so many people, you know, just want more people in their programs. I really appreciate finding someone who I can share with my community who is going to have integrity.

It's not the right fit for everybody, and I want you to find the right fit for your family and that there's lots of options out there and I will work for some people and I won't work for others. I feel the same way I have a membership as well, and it's not for everyone. Our goals aren't always aligned and it's okay to find I know that, you know, some of the guests that I've had on here, people who listen, go and work with them and take their courses, and that's wonderful instead of mine, I really appreciate finding people who feel the same that

Dawn: I love when I'm able to refer somebody to a better fit therapist like that. 

Laura: Yes, I think it speaks to that. I don't know about how it is for you, but for me, I really just love parents and kids and I really just want them to find the home and the support that's right for them. That's really all I want. 

Dawn: Yes. I want to say my favorite client is a struggling mom, an unhappy mom. She's my favorite client. 

Laura: Okay, well, so this was so wonderful. Don I so appreciate you sharing all your wisdom and knowledge with us. Thank you.

Dawn:  Thank you. I had so much fun. 

Laura: Me too. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

Episode 128: How to Raise Anti-Racist Children with Britt Hawthorne

I know we all want a better world for our children, that's a big part of why you're on this respectful parenting journey with me, right? At some level, most of us believe that by raising our children with dignity, respect, and emotional intelligence, we will send out emotionally healthy, whole children who know how to stand up for themselves, what healthy relationships look like, and how to advocate for a more just world. This is truly powerful and world changing work, and a significant part of creating this truer, more beautiful world, is helping our children learn to see inequity, get curious about bias and prejudice and engage with the process of dismantling the -isms that hold us all back.

But the "how" of actually doing that work, can be so daunting. So I invite you to join me for a super practical conversation on this topic with ​
Britt Hawthorne. She is a Black bi-racial momma, teacher, author, and anti-bias and antiracist facilitator. Britt partners with caregivers, educators, and families to raise the next generation of antiracist children. Together with her beloved partner, they are raising their children to become empathic, critical thinkers, embracing justice and activism.

Here's an overview of what we talked about:

  • Choosing family values for raising anti-racist children

  • Practical steps to embracing conversations focused on curiosity and care

  • Her new book, which is choc full of direct action steps that you can start using right now with yourself and your family

Be sure to follow Britt on her Instagram @britthawthorne (her page is one of my favorites- so much gold!) and visit her website britthawthorne.com. And if you want to learn more, check out her beautiful book Raising Anti-Racist Children.

Episode 127: Coping with ADHD as a Mom with Patricia Sung

ADHD is getting a lot of buzz out there in the world recently, and many adults, especially woman (who as girls perhaps had their symptoms overlooked) are getting diagnosed, sometimes alongside their kids. I've spoken to quite a few of you who have gone through this process and so many of you have expressed initial feelings of relief, that there is a real, true reason that things have always seemed a bit harder for you, and it's not because you're a failure, you're just wired a bit differently. But after that relief there tends to be a feeling of... "Ok, what now?"

So, if you're newly diagnosed with ADHD , or even if you have some suspicions that this may be going on for you or your kids, this episode is for you! I have brought in a friend and a colleague, Patricia Sung, who is an ADHD expert and the host of the Motherhood in ADHD podcast. She helps moms with ADHD get themselves together one step at a time and feel confident in running their family life. After years of serial entrepreneurship and teaching middle school, she has a uniquely practical perspective on strategies for building a life that works when your brain is different.

Whether you have it yourself and it complicates your life or if you're noticing it in your kids, Patricia will help us figure out how to make things a little bit easier for you.

Here's what we talked about:

  • Learn about your (or your child's) brain and how your ADHD affects you (or your child)

  • Recognizing you need help and finding the right person (therapist/coach)

  • Common symptoms of ADHD that we need to look out for

  • How ADHD affects your motherhood

  • Strategies to help overwhelmed moms

If you want to learn more and find courses on how to navigate ADHD, visit Patricia's website www.motherhoodinadhd.com and follow her on Instagram @motherhoodinadhd

And, if you're looking for a deeper dive, we will be having a great conversation on adult ADHD coming up in the BalancingU membership. Click here to learn more!


TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen, and on this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to be demystifying ADHD. Whether you have it yourself and it complicates your life as a parent or if you're noticing some of that coming up for your kids, we're going to dig into it and figure out how to make things a little bit easier in your life. And to help me with this conversation, I'm bringing in a friend and colleague and an ADHD Expert, Patricia Sung. Patricia, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here. Thanks for coming. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Patricia: Thank you. I'm so excited. Okay, I am formally a middle school teacher and all paths lead down this sem. Crazy path where everything came together and now I've taken my background with teaching and having a PhD myself and put it all together. And now, I teach moms how to live well with their ADHD. And that comes from just from myself when I had my kids, I couldn't find much like any kind of resources on how like, I was struggling so much and I couldn't find anything to help me. And it was a clear moment of like, if not you, then who? And so, now I have a podcast called Motherhood in ADHD. And it's been almost three years now that's been going which is crazy to think, three years, well. And I teach classes on you know how to get your crap together for moms like understanding how we can make daily routines that make sense for us that are mom-friendly but also ADHD-friendly. And just putting together those pieces to understand who you are and how your brain works and how do you make a life that works for you given that your brain is different. And there's a good chance that also one or more of your kids also has a brain that's different and how do you make that work for your family.

Laura: Can we talk a little bit about that then? Like what is different about a brain with ADHD? And how does it impact your daily life? 

Patricia: So it's interesting because I mean obviously we can't look inside brains while you’re alive. So you know, a lot of it is a little bit mysterious in that you know if they started poking around your brain, you'd be dead. So they don't do that.

Laura: Of course.

Patricia: A lot of what we do, you know what, we're looking at is theory. And you know, quality scientific research and we're making our best guesses. But in the simple version is that it's a neurological medical condition and our brains connect in a different way. So structurally, our brain is different than other people but more importantly is how it affects your life. So when you're looking at your overall life, ADHD affects every part of your day, of your life, of your relationships, your work, your parenting, every single part of your life is affected by ADHD. 

So there's no safe haven or you know time out area where it doesn't affect how you function and how you interact with people. And you can see that in a lot of different ways. Practically speaking, there's the obvious stuff that we always hear about, where, you know, some people are more hyperactive and you see their energy in a physical manifestation. You see them moving. You see that five year old kid who's jumping off things and can't sit still and is running around, but that's only a sliver of what it is. 

There's also hyperactivity in your mind where your brain always is going. Your thoughts are always moving a lot of times that looks like anxiety or obsessive compulsive thoughts and intrusive thoughts that come in where your brain just never stops moving. It's always going and it feels very loud in your head. You can see that in the lack of planning skills and a lack of organization and having trouble prioritizing.

Laura: Can I just jump in? Like why is that hard for folks with ADHD to organize the plan? Yeah. 

Patricia: Our executive function is not so great and that is like the conductor of the orchestra for your brain. So while you might really have a fabulous woodwind section or maybe your drums are just on point when you put them all together, they don't sync up well and they have trouble coordinating with each other. So while you might be really good at keeping things organized like in this small box, when you look at it in the bigger picture, you have struggle with doing the multiple things at the same time. 

So like if you're working on so you're cooking dinner and then your kids interrupt you with some kind of question and then you forget the dinner and you go help them with their homework and all of a sudden dinner's burning, it's like your conductor couldn't do all the things at the same time, so dinner got forgotten because you're attention shifted to homework problems or someone fighting or hey quit jumping off that thing and your brain just doesn't do all the things at the same time. Well, so we're not good multitaskers if you will. And that's really hard as a parent because that is parenting, parenting is always multitasking. 

The whole concept of multitasking is a live brain, It's your brain shifting from task to task. Your brain actually can't do that many. Like they can't do multiple things at one time but some people are much better at shifting back and forth and being like dinner still okay kids reading dinner still okay kids reading and for people with ADHD. 

It's like once we switched away from dinners, okay we head down the path of homework and we never remember to circle back to the dinner is okay so our brain functions differently and that's a really good thing for a lot of stuff but it's a huge struggle in other ways and usually that's the part that we see when we have it is all the struggles and how it is making our life really difficult and how it's hurting the people around us. And a lot of times we don't feel like there's much strength to it. It really just feels like a detriment and in a really big struggle to overcome. 

Laura: So a lot of adults, especially women who are under diagnosed when it comes to ADHD,  children are much less, girls are much less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. Two haven't recognized and we're very good at passing in that way. I think that that's getting better but it's not there yet. And so for lots of us who are adults and we start hearing someone like you start talking about symptoms are ways to know that you might have ADHD.

It can be like yes okay so this is explaining a lot. This is explaining why things are so hard for me why things that seem easy for other people are not easy for me. Maybe nothing is wrong with me. Maybe I just have a difference in how my brain works. And so for those parents who are kind of waking up to like oh wow this is something that's been there my whole life. And now I'm just recognizing it what is the next step for them and making their life a little bit easier. 

Patricia: So I always recommend first that you um talk to a professional who understands ADHD. Um and look at getting a diagnosis and a lot of people will say like, oh I don't really need a diagnosis because fill in the blank whatever reason is. But I always recommend that first because ADHD comes with so many. I like to call them friends, separated friends. Things like anxiety and depression. And a lot of times women will be diagnosed with those or chronic fatigue or bipolar. 

Like the list goes on and we get all these other mental health diagnoses because those are the things that are screaming and needing attention. But the root of them, that's the ADHD. If you're dealing with your ADHD, then you're able to so much better deal with all the other things. So the first place to start is to find someone who truly understands adult ADHD which is I understand sometimes it feels like looking for a unicorn. But finding somebody who can truly tell you like is this what you're dealing with And also what other things are you dealing with? Because it becomes this like tangled necklaces, not don't deal with all the whole picture and you're just trying to fix one necklace. It's like, well, but now you're tangling the seven other necklaces that are in the ball with it.

So you can't really deal with just one. Like you can't just deal with the anxiety and just, okay, well I'm just gonna take this anxiety medicine and that's gonna solve my problem. No, you have anxiety because you're so stressed about forgetting something or your mind is always going well. If you deal with the root then you can, you know like domino out. So that's the first step is seeing someone who can help you and figure out what else you're dealing with because it's rarely ever just HD. 

Laura: So how do you go about finding someone like that? I think that this is one of the biggest struggles when you're recognizing you need help finding the person who's right for you. How do you go about finding someone, a therapist who is well versed in adult ADHD? Like what do you even look for?

Patricia: Well first, if you can find a referral, that's really the best place to start is to find someone else with ADHD. Who says yes, I like my doctor. But if you are like if you're not comfortable asking around or you don't feel it's funny cause people are like well I don't know anyone else who's dealing with this and I'm like well there's like almost 10% of the population that does. 

So chances are you two just haven't said anything either is that if you're not comfortable speaking up for sharing yet because it's still like super scary and you're not sure like do I even want to admit this out loud? Is that you can contact your insurance provider and then start with that name and just call the offices and ask like do you deal with adult ADHD. If they don't like next new person Because really is something that's not really taught in medical school. It's not really taught in like the basic of like anyone who's helping people in mental health. It's just not an in depth subject on anyone's study. 

So unless that person had a reason to dive into it or they've worked in their practice for many years. They got like one page in a textbook In one class in school and that's it. It's not the medical professionals fault that they don't have that experience because you know if they weren't taught in school they were taught in school but that doesn't mean that you should suffer with subpar care because like one of the things that I always say like you don't go see the podiatrist for you know a heart issue and you don't ask your dentist to look at your ankle like you want to see the professional that truly understands and is experienced with that area and they do exist. It's just a matter of finding them. 

Laura: Yeah. One thing that I don't know about you but I found helpful is for those therapists that if you're looking on like their their psychology today profile. There are some therapists who lifts just a few specialties you can tell that they're really specialized, whereas there's other ones who are casting a wide net, you know, with their tags and their interests and their focus is and they have they list everything and you don't want one of the people who lists everything right? 

You want a true specialist. So if they've got ADHD and anxiety on their profile and nothing else, like that's what they specialize in, that probably is a good person to give a call, you know, versus someone who's got, you know, all every mental health disorder that you can have listed on their page. So specificity is a good place to start to.

Patricia: And like I said like if you're not sure if you can't like if it's not obvious on their website, if you just call and say like literally ask one question like do you have experience in this yes or no and move along? Like I know people that making phone calls but finding the right person because you will save yourself like hours of heartache all the money that you're spending. Like you are paying this person for their expertise. 

And if they don't have expertise, don't pay that, pick someone who truly understands you. And even if you find someone who's an abc special and you're like, oh I just don't gel with this person, it's okay. Like I find another one it's all right. Like you don't have to love every person, you don't have to love the first person that you meet. 

Laura: Yeah and like from a therapist perspective to like the good therapists will not take that personally. You will not hurt our feelings. We all know that the research on the therapeutic alliance, the relationship between therapist and client is the most important factor in change and outcomes and good outcomes. 

And so if a therapist is worth you know there's stuff a good therapist be like oh it's not driving for you. Is it something that I can fix? Or is it something where you need you need help finding someone else who does drive with you? Like that's what a good therapist will respond to you if they take it personally if they you know if they get defensive like you're better off moving along okay. And so you know we've been talking a lot about grown ups with ADHD. But often as you said before you know if we if we ourselves have some neural differences for brain works a little bit differently. You know we sometimes pass that along to our kids. Can we talk a little bit about like I feel like it can be obvious on some levels. We have these kind of obvious markers for ADHD that we think are is ADHD and kids. 

And I sometimes think that like sometimes we see very typical like five year old behavior, five-year-olds can't sit still in kindergarten and like that's not necessarily ADHD. Because the five-year-olds not supposed to sit still the kindergarten is the problem not the kid because they we shouldn't expect five-year-olds to sit in desks at all. It's just not developmentally appropriate. So I think it's important to look at the context. Is the context developmentally appropriate. Do we have developmentally appropriate expectations? But what are some of the things that you know you know when that should start pinging the our parents’ ADHD? Alarm bells in their brains. 

Patricia: The obvious things are obvious. The parts that get construed into something else are the ones that you really want to be looking for. And the best like umbrella term would be emotional dis regulation. And that's when your emotions are not regulated. So your emotions are all over the place. When you Either yourself or your kid, you watch them go from like 0-60 over. What do you feel like? Nothing. It seems really silly. Why are you even upset about this? Why are you being so dramatic? Why are you upset? Like if those words are coming out of your mouth like.

Laura: But just to be super clear that there's a difference between this with older kids and younger kids. So two-year-olds, three-year-olds, they do lose it over really small things. We're talking about older children here and so I mean the diagnosis like age for ADHD. Is seven really. We shouldn't you know so younger kids will you know over small stuff right? 

Patricia: That's the hard part for parents because like you don't have anyone to compare to you besides your kids. Like unless like for me like I'm a teacher, I work with lots of kids so for me it's a little bit easier to pick out what makes sense and what doesn't. But it's hard as a parent when you haven't worked with a lot of kids to know like is this a thing that kids do or is this a red flag? So you always want to look at that. Yeah that age range of like does this make sense for a three year old? Yeah three year olds get mad about all kinds of stuff. It's like well you know my spaghetti is too wiggly.

Laura: I'll never be able to like look inside my stomach. Like there's no honey but you will never be able to see inside your stomach. I know it's terrible. Yeah.

Patricia: But like when you start getting like you said usually you can diagnose a. D. H. D. A little bit younger than that. But it's harder because again the red flags are developmentally appropriate when you're three or four. But when you get to be you know seven and eight and your child is losing it over something that seems silly to you. That's a red flag where they don't have the brake system, slow down the emotions and do what we would consider like having like a thoughtful process about it. They don't have that skill. They're learning that skill. But when you're seeing kids who are like seven and eight and even like into teenage years where 

Laura: That skill should have come online 

Patricia: And their brain just like zooms in on like every input that they're taking in, the reaction comes out faster than they're able to consider it to think about it. Like the rude words just fall out of their mouths. The yelling just seems to appear out of nowhere. That's one of the biggest red flags to me when we look at that, like when we get into like elementary and teenagers is that emotional dis regulation where they literally do not have the ability to slow down those feelings and as hard as it is to parent that and to deal with it as the grown up like flipside, imagine being the person who control the feelings and like sees the train flying down the hill with no brakes and knows there's going to be a big crash at the end and yet not being able to stop it. 

It is gut wrenching and I mean even now, like, I mean I'm almost 40 and there are times where I'm like, oh the had this is not going well, like I can see myself losing it now I'm aware enough that it's almost like an out of body experience. Like I see myself falling apart and I want to stop it. But yet somehow my brain can't and it's like the angry words are flying out like the grown up tantrum really, it's actually a grown up meltdown. Like we talked about that on when you were on my podcast and like the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown is like when you're losing it and you can't stop it.

Like that's a really hard feeling to be out of control and where you'll then see that go is that when our teens or kids or even ourselves when we start to fly off the handle and we don't know why and we're not sure what's happening. Then we start making up crazy excuses because we're trying to like explain away like, well I don't know why I just said that or did that. So I'm just gonna make something up because I don't know what the answer is. You know, this is always what happens like when your kid makes a bad decision, you're like, what were you thinking? 

Laura: I know or this is why I think the question why is the least helpful question parents can ask their kids. It's generate the response that they think we want to hear or the explanation. And they often don't know why. It rarely gives us actual helpful information. Like why did that make you so upset. Why did you say that to your sister.

Patricia: Right, Like the level of comprehension that it takes for you to stop and be like why did I just yell angry words with that person who cut me off while I was driving. We don't think about that stuff. Like it takes a lot of emotional maturity to say like oh well I was really upset because well like that's a whole train of thought that like most humans don't have let alone when you're asking like a 10 year old what were you thinking when you did that? They're like I don't know. So then they just make up something and so you'll see that pattern of like it comes across as lying 

Laura: Or excuses or manipulation 

Patricia: Like all this other stuff it's like well but also as the grown up like we just asked the kid to do something that they were not capable of doing, what did we expect was going to be the answer. 

Laura: Okay so I think like your big take home message is recognizing that a lot of the problem behaviors that we see. Big angry outbursts, rude. Backtalk lying, manipulation, disrespectful language are the big things that parents really get kind of worked up about. That if we're experiencing those a lot and it seems like our kids can't control it, they just fly off the handle or it just happens. The things that we need this should be raising a red flag for us. 

Patricia: I think the biggest part is just understanding how our kids work and when we understand how an ADHD. Brain functions whether that's our brain or their brain that level of knowledge is so life giving it's there's so much freedom in understanding that we don't have to take it personally. Our kids are not purposefully trying to be as angry, they're not digging at us, they're not trying to cause trouble,.

Laura: They're not lazy right.

Patricia: They're not lazy, they're not I would say like I'm gonna totally go off tangent here. Like that's one of the things that kills me about like when I hear parents talking about their kids like being lazy or not trying it's like well you know what your kids really struggling right now and it's a lot easier for them to opt out and say you know what, I'm not good at this so if I just don't try I can protect myself because nobody can criticize me if I don't participate in the same way that like if I do it and I mess up then I feel bad about myself. 

I feel failure, I feel shame but if I just opt out and I just don't do it. Mhm. I'm getting yelled at for things that it's not my failure now I can just be like well I didn't try so what as opposed to like I tried and I messed up and now I I'm feeling like the failure plus the sheen. Plus plus plus like all the emotions that go with that and instead of just like, well I'm just gonna opt out and then I can turtle up and not have to feel any of those feelings. 

Such a huge coping mechanism. It's a defense mechanism that is very effective when you're struggling. So when I hear those, like my kids are so lazy and they're not trying, it's like that is your kid telling you that they're really hurting and it's easier for them to opt out than to try and fail.

Laura: So what does a parent do in that situation? They're hearing this, they're waking up, they're seeing this in their kid, what do they do besides getting help? You know, like literally in the moment 

Patricia: And also this depends on your kids age to like the way you're going to approach an elementary school age kid is different than how you would approach like a teenager. So if your kid is old enough, a lot of it is like just being willing to listen and say like I see that you're struggling here, like can we talk about it? And as the grown up literally just listening and not like trying to fill in the blanks or lead them down a path, like truly listening. 

Like when you're a kid, especially once they're teenagers, like the granted, like they think they know everything and we feel like they know nothing, they do know themselves pretty well and if they feel like you're willing to listen and not judge, they will share with you what they think might work, but they're not going to share that with you.

If they think you're going to shut them down or if they think that you're just gonna tell them that's a dumb idea or you know, if you're gonna reinforce, well none of those other solutions were because you didn't try like when we start jumping in, it's like well then they shut down again and then we're right back where we started. So it's that really, really hard job as a parent to just sit there and listen. 

Laura: And stay well regulated and leave your agenda and your theories on why things are the way they are at the door and coming, there's this concept from mindfulness called beginner's mind and I think it's really an important like posture to embody when you are trying to figure out what's going on for your kid. 

Patricia: Just being curious and being like, I'm not gonna try to solve this problem today, I'm just gonna listen and like think of it kind of like, you know, a scientific research, like put on your lab coat, you're just jotting down your observations, you're not trying to solve the problem right now, I'm just absorbing information so that I can make a hypothesis later. 

But right now like let me just absorb as much as I can from my child while they're willing to share with me because, you know when we have teenagers that's like a very tiny window willing to open up and share so take advantage and just listen and like just like a side note, a really great way to get your kids to talk is to have them doing some kind of activity with their hands. Kids will open up and share so much when they're doing some kind of like whether that's like a hobby or like a craft or an art or like lego or any of that like their hands are doing and their mind is focused on that task and like their thoughts and feelings will just like fall out.

Oh okay like I didn't see that coming but it's really beautiful because it lets their guard down because they're focused on the task. But yeah that's where I would start. Besides getting help is just being willing to listen and leaving the judgment at the door, assuming your kid is you know old enough for that conversation.

Laura: Absolutely,  as we're having this conversation. One of my clients who was just recently diagnosed with ADHD herself as an adult and has two children who were also diagnosed with ADHD. These diagnosis came in in the last six months and they're really struggling. So she's been on my mind a lot as we or having this conversation particularly because in this family's circle don't really understand even you know the dad hasn't experienced it himself, He's working really hard to get there and understand how ADHD can be getting in the way of so much because these it's like you're describing them you know they don't want to go do anything. Things that they used to like to do. I don't wanna do anymore. You know when they're pushed or pressured they get explosive. It's textbook what's happening. And it's really hard I think for parents to see those things as ADHD because we think ADHD is just not being able to pay attention in class. You know and it's so much more.

Patricia: So many years now all of those things have been described as behavior choices and seeing the like the key word there is that people are choosing to be lazy and people are choosing. It's like well I mean yes I guess they did choose not to do the thing but why are they choosing not to do that? Like people inherently we just don't opt out of things on purpose. Like without a reason there's always an underlying reason when our kids start heading down that path. 

And I'm beginning to think like we keep saying like well understand the difference between it being like a behavior choice and some kind of like problem that they're dealing with and the more that I see it the more I'm thinking like I don't really know that any of them or like a behavioral choice like the more that I'm diving into like the world of ADHD is that I feel like most people like are doing that because they're struggling because they're not sure what to do because they feel shame because they are feeling beat down by failure after failure. 

Is there anyone who's really just choosing to be like a turd human? I don't think so. I feel like pretty much everybody's got some underlying reason when we start heading down that path. So it's a matter of discovering like is it ADHD or is it some other mental health issue or is it that you know the options are endless but in finding those answers is where we start to find the solutions.

Laura: Yeah. I think you hit on something that's really important is that kids just like grown ups are usually doing the best that they can. I mean I think it's pretty safe to assume that most people at any given point in time are doing the best that they can and on any given day they're best might be different than it was the day before or even any given like our in in the school day you know from moment to moment, we're changing our hormonal like in chemical fluctuations in our bodies are changing.

You know our energy levels are changing our ability to focus or to regulate changes moment to moment through the day and I think if we come from this place of just a really compassionate, graceful gracious place of your kids really are doing the best that they can and if this is what they're doing, we can assume that it's really the best they can right then in that moment, maybe not the best that they could yesterday or we'll be able to do tomorrow. But right then it's it's really what they have capacity for right now. 

Patricia: It's also important to mention too, like especially when you're doing a teenage girls is that our hormones have a huge effect on our ADHD. So as you know, your daughters are going through puberty and starting their period's that's a big big influence on ADHD. Symptoms. And that's when you'll see all these things start to pop up and and a lot of times parents are like what's going on? Like chalk it up to being you know puberty and all that stuff but we deal with this cycle every month. 

Like it just keeps going every month. And when girls are hitting that age of puberty, it's like these symptoms that maybe they dealt with okay before and they were able to get by with whatever they've learned all of a sudden you hit these big hormonal shifts like puberty or having you know, you know pregnancy and menopause like all of a sudden you're a th the symptoms are like blown up with you know gasoline and the same thing of like throughout your cycle. Like you'll see those shifts in, you know, depending on where you are within the different phases. 

Like you're ADHD. Maybe a lot more difficult to deal with, say like the week before your cycle and during your cycle because your body is doing a lot of hard work in preparation for growing a whole human, like we don't appreciate how much our bodies are doing at that time. So, you know, our hormones are literally changing every day. So it will make sense that, you know, as you're watching your, especially a teenage daughter, you're like, okay we were fine yesterday, What's happening today, hormones are happening. 

It's not like a clear definitive, like this is how you are all the time. No, like we are women and we change throughout the month. So you will see those shifts happen and then the second time you'll really see shifts happen for ADHD. Symptoms is when we go through a big life change. So when you see your kids switch from elementary to middle or middle to high school, high school to college, if they start like something very stressful. 

Like maybe they start a highly competitive sport or like like those big shifts in their lives, you're going through something stressful at home maybe like divorce or you know, somebody passes away, you'll see a big shift in ADHD. Symptoms there too. So big shifts in life, those big stressors are going to affect you as well. So it's not like a linear graph. Like, here are your symptoms the same every day? It's like, no, it should look like a roller coaster because life is hard and it's different every day. 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I just, you know, we're nearing the end of our time together. I kind of just want to circle back to something you said at the very beginning of our chat around. We hear a lot about the negative parts of ADHD. I kind of want to just end on like what are some of the superpowers? What are some of the things that the positives and the benefit that you experience that lots of your clients or that kids can experience by having these uniquely wired brains. 

Patricia: I'm pretty sure that most of the human race is major breakthroughs came from somebody with ADHD. Like there's no way somebody with a regular brain was like, guys, I'm gonna take this kite and stand out in the lightning and see if we can get some electricity. What do you think? There's no way, you know, we are the movers and the shakers and the paradigm modifiers and the inventors and the innovators? 

Laura: How does that work?  Like what is the mechanism for that? You know, I'm not like putting you on the spot?

Patricia: I think it's a combination of, we just see things outside of the box. Like I can see the solution to a problem that no one else sees. Like I just look at things differently and a lot of times that's not appreciated. Like, you know, when you think about what makes a great mom, you think about like the mom who always make sure that the permission slips are turned in and always make sure that lunch is ready and those like mundane lame things that, you know, yes, need to get done, but we don't often like, and I hate this word to like judge motherhood. I'm like, who had the most fun?

It was like, hey, you have a question about volcanoes, let's make a volcano. Like having that impulsivity sometimes really serves us well. And like what happens if we just made a volcano today? Like what kind of amazing learning could we accomplish in that spontaneity? Maybe that means we have to make KCDS for dinner again because I ran out of time to cook and being willing to head down that rabbit hole and you know, I feel like a lot of times were good at sitting with our kids and be like, okay, you want to talk about dinosaurs for like two hours all right? 

Like let's get on google and see what we can find that like indulging that inner child is something that is really beautiful and underappreciated. So yes, having ADHD is extremely hard. It is so difficult in all the ways that it affects us and you know the struggles that you have across the board with relationships and work but the different things to find the solution that no one else can come up with like that's where our creativity comes in and maybe society just doesn't appreciate those characteristics just yet. But you know we didn't put a man on the moon by thinking small.

Laura: That's beautifully said Patricia, thank you so much for sharing this perspective with us. Where can folks go to learn more from you?

Patricia: So I have a podcast called Motherhood in ADHD. And you can find it on any podcast platform that you like to have on your phone and the website is the same to motherhood and ADHD. And there I teach classes for moms who have ah they're struggling with their day. So if you want to learn how to get your crap together and figure out like a routine that works or like how to keep up with your calendar and hopefully not be the person that you know skips your appointment for the fourth time this month. That's what I love helping moms do is figure out how to build a life that works for them. 

So I have a daily planning for moms with ADHD. And time management mastery for ADHD. Moms as well and a really beautiful community. We meet every week. The moms have a support group and just know that you're not alone. You're not the only one dealing with this and then it comes with all my classes so you can come any time and just be like, I'm not the only one. So it's a really beautiful community. 

Laura: Beautiful Patricia, thank you so much for crafting that space. I think that more and more we are realizing that we need to not feel so alone. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you so much. 

Patricia: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm like you're such a sweet demeanor. It's like, I feel like I'm like on cloud nine right now, Oh good. 

Laura: I love getting to talk to colleagues and you have a lot of really important things to share. I think that um it's important to hold these things to the light. So thanks for that opportunity. 

Patricia: Thank you so much. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. You got this!

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this

Episode 126: College or Not Series: Helping Your Child Find Their Purpose w/ Greg and Beth Langston

This week's episode is the final installment of our College or Not Series. I've heard from so many of you that you've been enjoying the series, even those of you with littles, and I'm so glad to hear that! When I was navigating decisions about my future as a child and teen, college was the *only* option presented to me by my family full of teachers and while that was the right choice for me and I'm so happy I am where I ended up, looking back I wish I'd been presented with a wide range of options. The necessity of this became even clearer as a professor guiding students who were burdened by crippling debt. I want something different for my kids, something guided by their hearts rather than society's "shoulds". What about you?​

I'd love to hear from you and I'd like to try something new:​

When it comes to your kids education and future careers, what do you want?

Hit reply and type in your multiple choice answer from the choices below (feel free to choose as many as you want!):

A. I think college will be the right move for my kids, but I'm open to what they want especially, if they have a plan

B. I want to support my kids in finding their passion and figuring out how to support themselves with it

C. Success is something each person needs to define for themselves, and it's ok if my kids and I have different definitions

D. I really want to be open-minded, but I have some deeply ingrained beliefs I'm still working through so that I can let go

Can't wait to hear from you!​
Ok, now for this week's episode! We are going to be talking about how we can help kids develop a growth mindset and help them figure out who they are and their goals early on as they get closer to college. To help me in this conversation, I have Greg and Beth Langston. Greg is an expert in building high-performance teams across 10 different industries while Beth is an expert essay editor with a proven track record of helping students navigate the dreaded college applications essay process with tremendous success. Together they develop transformational self-discovery courses for high school students.
​​
Here's a summary of our conversation:

  • How to help kids know themselves and find their purpose

  • Core values and beliefs kids embody today

  • Selecting the right major for college (or not)

If you are interested in their self-discovery courses, you can check them out on their website: www.collegeflightplan.com.

Get your free gift, PARENTS' STARTER KIT TO TEEN SELF- DISCOVERY (includes "The Top 5 Early Actions That Lead to College Success"), for listening today!

TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen. Welcome back to our college prep series. I'm really excited to bring in my guest today. We're going to be talking about how we can help kids develop a growth mindset and really figure out who they are and their goals starting early on and even more so as I get closer and closer to college and so for to help me with this conversation. I have Greg and Beth Langston, they're gonna help us out so why don't you two introduce yourselves and tell me a little bit more about who you are and what you do. 

Beth: Okay, well I'm Beth and thank you for having us excited to be here and I have an education degree from Purdue University go boilers we actually live in San Diego, we've been here, gosh, five years now, our daughter lives here actually, so we live here and we help students master for 20 years, we've been working with preparing kids to go into college or into a career that they choose, maybe not in college and just learning their gifts and strengths and everything and this is Greg.

Greg: Hi, I'm Greg Langston, I also live in San Diego, went to the university, that's where I met Beth and she was a cheerleader, I was a football player and I studied international business and Once we graduated from there we started traveling and we've moved 25 times and I've worked in 10 industries, run a billion dollar business with 9000 employees and throughout that process I was exposed to a lot of coaching and training so that I could mentor hundreds of young professionals and high school students and so that's how we got started in this process.

Beth: And we have two kids of our own.

Laura: Yeah, cool, and they are out of college?

Beth: Yes, they are out of college. And we would have some grandchildren. 

Laura: Beautiful.

Beth: Best gift ever.

Laura: Yeah, you know, sometimes I think to myself that like, I really just want grandkids, you know, my kids are nine and six, I'm like, really excited for that grandma role. Like, I'm really looking forward to.

Beth: Being a mom is hard. I think a mom we take it so seriously and I'm not sure how it's gonna turn out, but as grandma's we know it's gonna be just fine and love on those babies. 

Laura: Yeah, that's what my mom says, she says too, that there's this like, amplification, like the love is like almost multiplied because it's your child's child. I can't wait for that. Yeah, awesome. Okay, so tell me a little bit about, you know, when it comes to helping our kids know themselves and find their purpose, where do you start with that?

Beth: You can start when they're very little, you know, even with our grandkids, it's when they get home from school, it's like, how did you use your strengths today? Speaking to what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are? You know, how did you work on that today? Because they're old enough to be working on things? And how did you show your kindness today? And little things, giving language to their strength and their and what is your purpose today? What are you gonna do, present that to them? What are you going to do today at school? That's going to make this a great day.

Greg: Rather than just say how was school today? Because they'll just grunt or a 

Laura: Fine, boring, you know, get the one word answer is absolutely

Beth: There are great books out there too for those littles to bring out that part of them. And then our forte is of course those a little bit older, you know, early high school, some eighth graders too. But that's when we really start. They can go through these courses and use our tools, you know, use tools that are out there to help them learn their purpose  and things like that. 

Laura: Yeah. So what I really like about those questions is that they are asking the child to check within themselves to developing a practice of checking in and learning to listen to their inner voice. I think, you know, in the past when I was growing up we weren't asked to do that. We weren't asked to check in with ourselves.

Beth: Right. We were more told what to do.

Laura: Yeah. What was expected of us, what, what was going to be right for us. We were told things like you're really good at math, you should go do this or you're really good at science, you should go do this versus the kind of inviting curiosity and contemplation within.

Beth: And yeah, even reviewing their values. Right?

Greg: Absolutely. You know, because when kids are early on, they adopt the values that their parents provide for them for the, you know, the family values in terms of integrity and other things, they're kind of transferred over to them. You can speak to your kids and have them determine what other core beliefs and help them to begin to establish those at an early age because those core values then help them determine decisions and how they make decisions for themselves when they're not with their parents and that's something that we think is very important. 

Laura: That's huge. So what are like, what are some core values and beliefs that you see kids embodying these days? The teenagers that you work with. 

Greg: Integrity is one that comes up a lot. Excellence, love

Beth: Perseverance

Greg: Compassion. These are some of the values that come up and so you say, okay, that's great. Now why does that resonate with you in if that's important to you, what are you going to start stop and continue doing to make that very, very clear to you and so that you can begin to pressure test that value so that when they're placed in a situation where they're not with their parents and or parents rather they can answer a question and make a decision based upon passing those three values. If it doesn't pass any one of those three values and they know that they probably shouldn't stop, they shouldn't continue going forward with that decision, then they can be taught at a young age. 

Laura: Yeah, I love that. I feel like that's really helpful for everybody. So you know this what it knows. So if I articulate my values and then what does that mean for, what am I going to stop doing, continue doing or start doing? I really love that check in and that's really part of living into your values. 

Greg: Absolutely. And if we not only deal with values, but also a student's purpose and their objectives and their goals. And so for your audience, if they can visualize the cutaway of a large oak tree vision that the root systems that go down in some cases, root systems go down 400 ft that that root system is equivalent to their core beliefs or their values and that root system, the values hold up the tree, then the trunk of the tree is your y or your purpose. 

And it's important to help a student to determine what is their, why, what is their purpose? It's something that's larger than themselves. And then the branches represent their objectives and their goals and the outcomes. 

So that visualization helps a person to understand that there is a continuum between down on the ground the roots, because you're all gonna be challenged, kids are gonna be challenged today, you know, look at what's going on in Facebook and went down yesterday and they have somebody speaking, you know, in the capital talking about the challenges that exist with social media. So kids are gonna be confronted with challenges and how do they deal with those challenges? And do they do and or act upon their values according to their values or do they even know what their values are and it's extremely important to help them understand that.

Laura: Yeah, I can see that. It would be, I feel curious about this purpose piece. You know, I think that if someone had asked me what my purpose was when I was 15, 16, 17, 18, I would have had no clue how to answer that. How do you get kids to get beyond the, like, I don't know or you know the kind of the surface level? How do you help them figure that out? 

Greg: Well, the way you ask it is you say, what are you? Well, I'm a freshman or a sophomore, whatever. That's I'm a freshman. How do you do what you do? Well, I study and I get good grades or I don't and I do sports and I have a relationship with my friends. That's what I do. The key question is why do you do that? You know, what is it that drives you, what gets you up in the morning? And most kids have no clue. In fact, they did a study that 87% of people between the ages of 16 and 29 have no purpose or meaning. 

Beth: It's  so sad. And kids, you know, they want to know what they do well where they belong and how they can make a difference. And how they can make a difference is what we need to be asking them more. 

Laura: Okay. 

Greg: And so the way we, you ask the question, how do we do that rather than as in our parents, they would say you're going to go do this. You're gonna go do this. What we do is we come alongside the student and we say we want to find out what jazz is you? What's important for you in your life and what are some accomplishments regardless of the age that you've had, that you're really proud of, that really impacted you. 

And tell us some stories about that. And we begin to ask them a series of questions that uncovered 10 different stories that influenced them. Either positively one, a grandparent or a coach or parent that positively impacted them or something that was rather traumatic that influenced them in a negative way that can also shape them for the future and then determine what was important about that. 

And how did they contribute to that situation? And how would they like to contribute going forward? And what they do is they craft their own purpose statement as a result of going through that process

Laura: That's beautiful. It sounds really organic. Is there a way for parents to go like? So you, I mean the statistic that you just gave, you know, 29 year olds, like that's lots of my parents listening right now, you know, perhaps feel a little purposeless, a little adrift without direction. Are there exercises that grownups can be doing to to be finding our purpose to?

Beth: Well, I mean, there are a lot of assessments you can do. I do think for, we were never asked our purpose every time we explore this with children and they learn their purpose and they tell their parents about the parents are like, oh gosh can we do this to? That's You know, we found we raised our kids overseas and so by the time our son was 13, He had been to 12 different schools in five different countries and you know, which is great. 

They learned for language and gained an appreciation for, you know, other cultures. But we felt that we were missing out on some of these tools to help them learn their purpose and their strengths. Because Greg as an international executive. He had, he was provided with hours of executive training and so He was learning his strength as a grown man. He was going through all this and he's thinking, why did I have to wait 20 years stuff about myself and why aren't we teaching this to our kids? 

Why is this not in the school system? We don't know. So that's how we got started. We developed tools with his executive background, my education background, developed our own tools to use on our own kids. They were guinea pigs, right? They survived. 

Laura: Yeah, it must be an interesting thing to kind of do this alongside your kids and it's probably quite powerful to model this model, figuring out your purpose, asking yourself these big questions, telling these stories that were formative for you. You know, there's a lot of research on family storytelling, and so I can imagine that if parents are interested in wanting to do this alongside their kids, that can be a hugely valuable thing. The research on families go ahead. No, I'm sorry, I was about to nerd out on research.

Beth: We love research, feel free, but  we were gonna say that will help them. If you start talking about your purpose and what you've been through, then they're gonna start realizing, okay, maybe, maybe I don't want to make those mistakes, maybe I want to be more aware before I have to choose that career or go into college, whatever I'm going to do with my life. But just to get them thinking about it, that's the thing. I think we're just so busy with our days and just getting through the day and getting, putting them to bed, taking a breath and starting all over again. Right? 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Greg, I feel like you were gonna say something just then.

Greg: I'm just gonna say that, you know, our role as parents is to give our kids self esteem a sense of, you know, a belonging, a sense of confidence, because when they're in school, even at a young age how are they measured? They look at a page that comes back to them with red circles, which is everything that they did wrong, and so what you want to do is say, all right, this is something that you can learn from, that if you have a fixed mindset, you just say I'm stupid and in years ago there was just the fixed mindset now with Carol Dweck and the idea of a growth mindset that is so important and that's something that students and young kids today can learn about that, that it's just a question of, I haven't learned that yet. That's my favorite word in the English. I haven't learned it yet. 

And so with the information and everybody says that social media is bad and you know what a lot of it is very bad, but with what is available on the, on the net in terms of what you can get from Youtube and so forth. You can really discover a tremendous amount of stuff whether it's the parents or the students that is very productive to help you be empowered to help you have a self esteem and not be as critical about yourself because with social media and here's the negative side, there is the view and I know a lot of the kids that your families that are on have don't have cell phones yet, but then there are some that do and they're being measured against perfection and that is not a good story because you know, perfection is a, is a mental construct, you're never going to achieve it.

It's always going to be outside of your grasp and all this curated information that a few influencers have is very destructive for young people. And so that's why we encourage them not to perfection, but what they're progresses from the day before.

Beth: And perfectionistic tendencies can be seen at an early age with these little I remember our daughter when she was learning to write letter, you know, alphabet and she'd write one and it wasn't perfect. So she'd tear the page off and so I noticed this after a while and I'm like, you know what honey, it doesn't have to be perfect.

She does have beautiful handwriting to this day, much better than mine, but just say letting them know it doesn't have to be perfect. Just try your best. You know, I applaud your effort. That's what we need to be telling them. Your effort is wonderful, not that you won or you know, I got an A on your test, but man, your effort, I really admire your effort. 

Laura: Yeah, like some of the questions I asked my kids most days after school or things like, you know, what did you do well today or that you're proud of today? What was one thing, you know, one mistake you made today and what did you learn from it? And then I always ask, how are you kind to yourself today? 

Because I think self compassion is a skill that is critical that we are building even more so I think than self esteem, that being able to be compassionate with ourselves is a lifelong skill you need for resilience. And someone in my community told me that she does that same thing with her kids, but they call it Rose bud and a thorn. So what the roses, the good thing, the butt is the thing they're working on in the thorn is the kind of the bad thing that happened. I think that that was a really cute way to, I don't know, start having these. 

Yeah, I like that one. But yeah, you know the perfectionism I think is it is interesting how it can start showing up so early and I feel like most of the parents I interact with identify as perfectionists and they identify how harmful that's been for them and then they see it coming out in their kids and there's this little bit of a freak out moment of like, oh God, what have I done? 

You know, I've created another little perfectionist and we don't want that for kids. So  I really appreciate that invitation to focus on yet and on the effort and also to know that there is this piece that especially for kids, right? When they're learning how to write, you know, the 5 to 6 range many of them they look like perfectionists and the simple reality is that they just don't have the fine motor skills to create the vision that's in their heads and that will come with time to you know. But yeah it's so important that growth like that being growth minded, are there other things along the way as kids get older that we can be doing to encourage that perspective? 

Beth: Gosh, just giving them opportunities to experience what the things they think they're interested in or where they think their strengths are and to see oh is this really what I think I want to do as they get to those ages where oh I think I want to go into medicine, this is our son his whole life, he wanted to go into medicine and then when he got into high school he had a great opportunity to intern well to ride along to shadow a neurosurgeon and a cardiovascular surgeon and he went right into the operating room and you know for a couple of weeks with each one when he was finished he was like that is not at all what I want to do, I am glad I found it out early he said because he would have spent all those years in med school, all that money on tuition and then had a job that he really didn't like after doing all that studying and you feel you have to be stay in it anyway, he went into the world of finance so go figure. 

Laura: Yeah, oh that's a great story. So lots of opportunities to explore and try things out. I love that. Okay so now a lot of the parents that are listening right now are working actively to not project onto their kids or project their own goals and desires and definitions of success onto their kids lots of the time because that's what was done to us and we don't want to do what was done to us. 

And so I was curious if you had any like words of wisdom for those parents who are trying hard to like let go but are finding it difficult. I'm thinking about parents who are trying, you know, wanting to get their kids into, you know, insisting that they take a few different activities and and be very invested in high achieving in them or you know, wanting them to be better at math than they are. So they'd sign them up for math, you know, extra math things I guess. I feel like I'm not asking this question very well, but I'm curious if you have words of wisdom or support for parents who are, who are trying to figure out how to walk that line of supporting our kids and not having undue influence or overpowering what is the child's actual true desire.

Beth: Yes, I want to tell you that there is hope. So, you know, we've we've all walked down this path and there is hope because as they get a little older they're gonna start weeding out the things that they don't want to do. I remember with our daughter when, when she was little, she, Our daughter is 6”1, so she was always the tallest little one in the class. And so we thought we were in the States for about a year from our overseas adventures. I said, well let's let's try ballet class and taps. She went in, she did it, she did the recital and she, when we got home she gave me her tap shoes and she says, I don't want to do this anymore. So okay, I honored that

Laura: You honored it and you listened to her.

Beth: And we were on to the next thing, which is great. And when they're little we can read those things out. I know piano lessons is another thing, a lot of parents because kids just don't like, most kids don't like piano lessons. That's one thing I feel we should have stuck with a little longer because later our daughter taught herself how to play the piano. But you know, there are so many gifts our kids have and figuring them out. You're going to say something. 

Greg: Yeah, I was gonna say because we're dealing with with families around the world because it's now we used to do it on workshops, but now it's all online, the programs that we provide. So what you find is that certain cultures where they're very strong patriarchy or matriarchy where the father or the mother says, listen, we're all lawyers in this family. So you know, you know, Emma and you know, Miles are both gonna be lawyers and that's all, that's the only choice you have, or Miles would really not be very good lawyers.

And so we encourage parents to help your students to find the self discovery wherever you find it. In terms of what are their strengths, what are their interests, what are their skills, what do they excel at and in a group environment, you know, what do they do? Well what do they kind of shy away from and try to see what that is and help them gain strength and confidence in those different areas? And that doesn't have to start when you're in your high school years, you can start doing that earlier age. 

And the other thing too is I would not over schedule because that's something that happens with too many kids, they just, everybody's running around with their hair on fire and they're in 17 different activities when as they go through the self discovery process, they're gonna say, you know what I'm doing this because you're asking me to, but I'm not really interested in it and it's not really gonna be what I'm passionate about in the future. 

So you can empower students to deselect certain things because when they find out what they're really interested in, they have the ability to de select, which sometimes is more important, certain activities so that they can focus on what they're most interested in.

Laura: Oh, I love that you're empowering kids to do to do this, Do you ever run into parents who push back on that? Like when you're you're working with the kids and their de selecting things, do you do run? How do you help those parents who are really, like, stuck in my not releasing their agenda for their kids and accepting their kids? Do you know what I'm saying?

Beth: Oh yes.

Laura: I'm sure you do. right? 

Beth: It and it happens a lot and it's hard to know as a parent because you've been in charge of this kid their whole lives, you know, and care of their well being and you know, their safety and everything and so it is hard to let go, but what we found is as kids discover wonderful things about themselves and how to address these things and how to use them and how to apply them. 

They go through this great transformation that the parents are always amazed to see, because the kids have a lot more clarity in knowing their values and their strengths and their weaknesses and of course their purpose and their career aspirations and then they have this better confidence because they clearly understand who they are and they can articulate that and and no, yes, 

Greg: Verbally and in writing.

Beth: Verbally and in writing interview situations or whatever, they may need that for in their essays for college applications and things like that, and then the kids have this sense of control over their futures because they'll have actionable plans and goals and something that they're really jazzed about pursuing as a career. 

So the parents do in this transformation of their child, they are actually very pleased and they wish they're all written and could we do this to please why? You know, it's so glad that their kids are able to discover things about themselves at an earlier age. 

Laura: Yeah. So do you think that there is a benefit then to be starting this earlier with our kids? Because I'm imagining that if we are practicing now within the stakes are low of letting go of our agenda, really trusting our child to know what's right for them, if we're practicing this when it comes to a birthday party that they don't want to go to or swimming lessons that they're not ready to put their face in the water yet. 

Like if we're practicing this when the stakes are pretty low, it might be quite a lot easier when it comes to, you know, letting go on their college choice or their choice not to go to college. Am I getting that right? 

Greg: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And the earlier you begin to help your student strengthen certain muscles and realize that, you know, I don't really want to swim even though mom and dad, you were both olympic swimmers, you know, I suck at swimming, you know, but you know what, I'm a fantastic fencer, I'm a fantastic soccer player and you know, honor that as Beth said, I honored her desire not to be a gymnastics, which being 61, you really can't be a good gymnast when she was in college, she and her, all of her teammates were all volleyball players up to 6”5 and so when they be these very tall girls walking around an airport, people would say, what are you girls doing? 

And they say, oh we're all gymnasts and they look at her like they have high heels on maybe like 6-7 there, how can you be gymnast? But the fact is you can help your student have a growth mindset, you can help them to establish smart goals, understand what a specific measurable, you know, all those attributes of a smart goal, you can begin to teach your children those that information at an early, at an early age, you don't have to wait until, you know, they're in high school 

Beth: And also allowing them to make mistakes fail while they're still under your tutelage and help them through those things, Those won't be major things hopefully, but at least they can learn how to handle it while they're still there with you and you can still guide them through that right and learn from that mistake, what would you have done differently to get a better outcome and what did you learn about yourself through this and how did it affect other people, all these things that we can be exploring with them 

Greg: And write it down and have them say so now if you're faced with that situation, like you forgot your homework or you forgot to take something, how did you feel? How did it make other people feel? What was the impact? Now if you are dealing with that in a similar vein in a week down the road, what would you do differently? 

And the kids are going to go, well, I would always put my homework in the same place every day, I'd always put my backpack in the same place every day, I wouldn't be leaving it In 16 different places and I'd leave my keys, that's a big one, I'd leave my keys in exactly the same location each and every day and I'd write down what my task to do is in the same location or text it to myself, whatever the case may be, You can teach these things at an early age, you don't have to wait until they're in high school.

Laura: Yeah, and what I love about that approach, Greg and Beth that you're saying right now is that this is teaching kids that when we have a problem, my parent is going to come to me and say I told you so, or you need to figure that out on your, like on your own because that's your problem, you were letting our kids know, like, hey, you've got a team here and your parents have your back, they're here to help you and support you. They're going to help you figure this out, which is a much lovelier way to, you know, to, to go through life knowing that you've got people who are on your side. 

Beth: Yeah, that's the home is a safe place to be a safe place, right? 

Laura: Yes. Yeah.

Beth: Here to help them get through it and you're gonna, you're gonna blow it at times, that's okay. We've all blown it up. 

Greg: We also encourage parents to establish an accountability partner for your student and in many cases parents will think well that accountability partner will be their best friend. But actually the students are wise enough to say, you know what I need to pick somebody who I trust has the best interest for me, it'll be apparent a relative, coach and mentor and it's interesting to know that when you write down that you know, I'm gonna lose 5 pounds or I'm gonna get better grades. 

The probability of success is single digit. If you Tell people as a young person or an older person, you know, I'm gonna do the same thing. The probability of success is 65%. But if you have an accountability partner Who works with you you will have a probability of success of 95%. So that's one of the things that we encourage every single student who works with us to pick an accountability partner as they go through the process to make sure that they complete that. 

Laura: Oh, that's cool, Thank you so much for that. Okay, so any parting wisdom for our families, where can they, you know, and any last little things that you really want them to know and then of course, where can they find you to learn more about your services.

Greg: A couple of things that I'd say is that I know that some of you, your kids are not in high school bound just yet and some of them will be. And just to understand that the self discovery is so important because of the 87% that I said about earlier today, the statistics are that only 40% of college kids actually graduate in four years, 60% are graduating in six years. 

And that's the reason is because 60% of them are changing majors at least three times because they don't know what is what is right for them. They're not doing the self discovery. So I encourage all your parents that this will turn into dollars and cents in the future kids or for yourself, that it will be an extra $100,000 to $160,000 if they take an extra two years to figure out what they're going to do. 

So it's extremely important that they pick the right thing that you start the self discovery at an early age because Add to that, that currently undergrad students that graduate, only 27% of them are doing a job that's exactly directed to their to their undergrad degree. In the United States, 70% of the people are not happy with their jobs. So that's why we're very passionate about helping young people determine what, they're what they're good at and being able to articulate that and make the right decisions so that they can go into college or have an alternate route to be a pipe fitter, a welder, earn a great living, be passionate, earn a living, fly out of the home and not come back into the basement, which, you know, some kids do that and I know parents don't want that to happen and although some parents do.

We have had parents who say, I don't want my student to go away, which is limiting. But those are some things that I would say, and I want to leave you with one thing that I think every parent can teach their kids, which is what I call the high potential essentials and those are number one, help your student find out what their values are and live by them, do what you say, you will do, finish what you start arrive on time. 

Say, please thank you and you're welcome and be willing to apologize when you're wrong, You can teach your kids, those six things, they will be tremendously successful as far as how they can reach us beth at collegeflightplan.com Our website is collegeflightplan.com or Greg@Collegeflightplan.com. And for your audience, we put together a document called the Parents Starter Kit to Teen Self Discovery, which has information. It's 33 pages long, has a bunch of statistics, some of which I've cited today. Some key early actions that parents can take to help the students, key assessments that are free. 

That helps students to figure out what they're interested in or potentially what kind of career that they would want to pursue. And it also identifies how much money you'll make when you do that because you can say I'm really interested in that, but you'll starve and you know, also some information on where you can get scholarship information as well, so you can get that at collegeflightplan.com/guide. 

Laura: Cool, well thank you so much Greg and beth it was really awesome to connect with you. I so appreciate all that you're doing for families and and kiddos as they as they figure this, their future out. That's a big thing. It's really important work. 

Beth: Thanks thanks for letting us share it on your show. We appreciate.

Laura: Absolutely. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

Episode 125: College or Not series: Helping Your Child Identify the Future that is Right for Them w/ Oie Dobier

I hope that the first episode of our College or Not Series helped you find resources in supporting your child in determining their passion in life. For this week, we will have the second installment of the series which will tackle figuring out if college is the right path for your child and supporting your child in finding careers that are fulfilling for them (and not what we think is right for them). So much of respectful parenting is about setting aside our preconceived notions of how children "should" be and learning to accept and parent the child in front of you, and educational choices should be no different!

To help me in this conversation, I brought in Oie Dobier. She is the founder of Project Who Am I where she, along with her daughter, helps students who are struggling with their career choices discover their natural talents, passions and values so they can pursue a fulfilling career.
​​
Here's an overview of our discussion:

  • How to eliminate the “I Don’t Know” Answer to “What Do You Want to Do After High School?”

  • How to Increase Your Teen’s Exposure to Cultivate More Self-Discovery

  • How to help our teens find their career that is purposeful

​You can find Oie on projectwhoami.com and they have a special free guide for those who have teens (yay!).

They are also on Facebook and Instagram (her daughter, Nya, shares lots of stories and reels on teenage perspectives) so be sure to follow them.


TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we're going to be talking about how to figure out if college is the right path for your child and how we can support our child in finding careers that are purposeful and fulfilling for them as opposed to just what we think is right for them. And to help me with this conversation, I'm bringing in an expert and the founder of Project Who Am I where she helps students who are struggling with their career choices to discover their natural talents, passions and values so they can pursue a fulfilling career. So my guests name is Oie Dobier, I'm so excited to have you here with me, thank you so much. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? 

Oie: Great! Thank you, Laura so much for having me, my name is Oie Dobier and I am a mom of two teens and what brought me here today as part of a co owner of project, who am I am co owner with my daughter and my husband, so we are a family business and what brought me here is really through a series of a couple of different activities, one is just my own career path. 

And in my early forties I came across a situation where I had to pick up my head and really think about what am I doing here and what do I want for the future for myself at the same time, shortly after who was our daughter, who's 19, she was 15 at the time and she had to go to some college tours due to her competitive soccer schedule and we had to go to colleges and she asked me mom what should I be when I grow up? And so those two coincided and really thought about you know how society is today in shaping our thoughts around career paths and we really said, you know, what should it be, not what it is and what should it be? And since we helped to go through her process and we've helped many teens go through this process and thus the project, my project came about.

Laura: Oh, that's beautiful. So something that we're really passionate about here at the Balanced Parent is trusting our children and following our children, understanding that we are not here to shape and mold our children into who we want them to be, but we are here to help them discover who they already are and who they're going to be. So I think that this is a great fit and I think that I feel like it's so much easier to know how to do that when they're little, when it's like, do I like blue shirts or red shirts?

But when it comes to like, am I going to college or am I going to trade school? It's bigger. It feels much bigger. And so I'm just kind of curious about how can we go about supporting our kids and figuring out who they are, what matters to them, what their values are without that kind of our stuff sneaking into it. Do you have any advice?

Oie: Yeah, I have some advice around that, you know, first thing is to sit down with yourself and your spouse and just talk about your own expectations and and have a family. Maybe a couple of conversations first about what is my expectations for my kids? What are your expectations for your kids? Talking to your spouse and having a spouse conversation about it and then just kind of peeling the onion a little bit about why is that the case? Right? 

Because it's more about the why behind the expectation versus the expectation and the reason why it's super important to do that is the next step is to sit down with your team and have that conversation with them because you know again you wanna lead with you know your values and the why behind what drives your thoughts and actions versus the solution right?

Because the solution is gonna look different for them as a teen, as a young adult, as people that are growing up and one thing that they'll do is kind of say yeah I agree with mom and dad's value or I don't and so that's the first tip I would say is to sit down and really self reflect on what are your expectations and then share that with your team and have that very fruitful conversation about, you know, do they agree or not agree and that's you know a grown up thing to do is sit there and have a family conversation about values and what they agree or don't agree on.

Laura: Absolutely, I think an important piece of you know getting really clear on our values and that why like you were talking about is then to start questioning to around like, okay, so here's the value, here's the Value and here's the Why, is it something that I actually choose? Like is it something that I have been conditioned to think is important and valuable? Is it in direct conflict with what I actually believe to be true of my child and my role in their life and really getting curious and like brave, I think with that questioning that line of self inquiry, it's hard to question deeply ingrained beliefs that are very cultural and handed to us through multiple generations, like I, you know, so we're talking about college, right? 

So my both of my parents were first generation college folks and when my sister and I were growing up, it was only college college was the only option for us, you know, there was still this like really deeply held belief and not just any college, like a good college, the college, you know, high top tier college and I'm in a place with my kids where I'm starting to feel a little bit more open to the idea that this narrative of college is the way to progress socially or you know, to engage most effectively in the capitalistic society that we have, I'm starting to push back against that a little bit more, especially as I see folks around me have really fulfilling careers in the trades and beautiful skilled trades or who go the college route and then don't do anything with their degree and are saddled with debt And end up doing finding their passion, you know, like you did 20 years down the road and start doing something completely different. I did that too.

I had this awakening of what am I doing, what is this really the life that I want, did I choose this life? I left academia, it was a professor and I left and so I would really love to save my kid from having to have that like awakening moment. I'd like them to move into their career and their education choices with awareness. I think that's what you help parents do. Right.

Oie: Right. Absolutely. And my first thought about college or maybe not college after 20-25 years of a career, I thought about, okay, what am I good at, what do people pay me well for? And guess what? I never learned that stuff in college, it was stuff that I was good at ever since I can remember. It was just innate things that make me me and obviously I learned a bunch of things in college, but could you learn those things in a different way beyond college? 

Absolutely, there's plenty of people who don't go to college and they learn life lessons just as well and you know, maybe even better like to your example that you're saying, You know, some people who go to college and they're not really doing anything, so you know, it's very situational. So I think, you know, we just have to think about as every parent has this discussion within themselves and with their teen, you know, really thinking about what did you learn in college? And are there other ways to learn that in today's world? Because today's world is very different than it was 20 years ago?

Laura: Absolutely is it's so different and you know, so I guess I'm curious then how do you, so you've got this kid who is you know, a teenager and maybe it feels a little adrift a little directionless, lots of teens that I've worked with in the past don't really necessarily know what they're doing, what they what they want to do. How do we help them figure that stuff out, not impose our stuff onto them but help them figure it out. 

Oie: Right. So I would suggest that first thing is really dig in to do a couple of things. You know, one is their natural ability, right? And these are things that they have been good at ever since Their little I have two kids, for example, her natural ability is she's a creative she has always been that way ever since she was little and I have Gobs and Gobs of example where she's just a very creative person. 

Dominic our son, he's completely different kids as we all know if you are parents of more than one kid and he is Mr. Doer and so, you know, thinking about college plans for him, school is kind of not his cup of tv, he would rather be out in the world doing things because that's what he enjoys, you know, whether it's playing soccer or we went to a glassblowing lesson the other day and he just absolutely loved that. And he keeps asking me, when are we gonna go again, mom? 

Because he loves doing things with his hands or his body or you know, he was into motor crossing for a while because it was just a matter of doing things. and so I think, you know, just getting them to sit down and focus on what am I naturally good at. And the second thing is what am I interested in, because as you know, there's so much in the world that you can apply your natural talent and you can impact any industry that you want, the world is your place to make a difference. And so, you know, whether if you love kids, you could take your talent and somehow help kids, if you love animals, you could do it that way. If you're really into nature and plants and environment, you could do it in that way. 

I mean, there's so many different ways you can take the things that you're good at and apply it in a meaningful way. So that interest part is really key. And I was talking to a parent and I said, well what are your kids interest, I don't know, you know, their interest is Tiktok and he's like, well, yes, but dig into that. What are they specifically looking at in Tiktok? Right. So if you were to look at my son's, Tiktok, he's really into cars. I mean all things cars and he's also into fish. So he's really into aquariums and what kind of fish and what kind of environment. So those are very specific things. And once you kind of understand, what are they interested in, help them explore that world and the various aspects of fish or cars. 

And ideally, you know, you also want to look at, it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. You know, okay, if you like fish, you should do something from a biology for perspective or if you like cars, you should be something, you know, car tech related. You know, the world is, you should be able to purposely mold your life to what you could be. And so I'm dreaming, but you know, it would be really cool if Dominic could do something with a combination of fish and cars. I mean, I haven't figured it out yet. And we haven't, I mean, but there are so many options. 

Laura: Yeah, things like designing a healthier fish tank, you know, a self cleaning fish tank or you know, some like more effective motors in the filters and fish tanks, you know, like there's so much overlap. Yeah, sure.

Oie: Yeah. You got your on the same wavelength. 

Laura: Yeah. And this, so this brings me to something that I think you like to talk about. So I hope that we can talk about it for a minute, exposing our kids to a big range of possibilities. I think plays into this too. I know that when my mom was going to college In the early the late 60s, early 70's when she went to talk to her guidance counselor about what her options were, there was beauty school, secretarial school or becoming a teacher, maybe a nurse. 

You know, those were the four options that she knew about and she didn't have, she was in a small farming community. Her parents were farmers, she didn't have visually access to seeing women in other roles. Now obviously some women were in other rules at that point in time, it wasn't in her worldview. And so I'm curious about how we can expand the bubble that our kids are in and make them aware of the possibilities that are open to them. 

Oie: Yes, expanding their bubble is key because there is a question that gets often asked, you know of teens, what do you want to be when you grow up or what do you want to do after high school? And a lot of teens, their answers, I don't know and you know, I would say the main reason why they don't know is because they're circle of people and of knowledge is really narrow, it's really small. And so I think the easiest thing to do about that is expose them to more people, different people because if you get them to hang out with different people, those different people do different things and they'll start to see all sorts of different activities, different points of view, different perspectives.

And so that's the easiest way to kind of expand their world is get them exposed to different people and encourage them to hang out with people that they don't normally hang out with because if you hang out with the same five people, you know, you only know the things those five people know, But if you start to say you know what I want to meet someone new, I wanna you know hang out with 10 people, I want to hang out with 20 people and not all at once because I I know I'm I'm that way I like to have one on one interaction. I don't like to hang out in a big crowd, but you know one month you can hang out with someone that you met at the coffee shop or a friend of a friend, that's the easiest way to start to expose them to different things.

Laura: I love that. I'm one thing that I do with my girls, my girls are younger, they're nine and six. And so one thing that I do with them is when I see folks out in the world who are doing jobs that my girls don't normally see in our everyday lives. I point those jobs out to them. Like the other day we were on a  walk and there was a group of folks who were introducing native plants into the pond setting that we were in and so we stopped and we talked to them about what their jobs were.

Some of them were in college, they were on a summer internship and we talked about like, what a wonderful job you're outside all day, you're helping mother nature. You know, like we talked a lot about those things, but we also talk about things like when we are driving through a construction zone,  we wonder wonder, you know what their lives are like. It looks like they're enjoying their, you know, these guys are all laughing with each other, it looks like they're enjoying their work, They get to be outside.

One of my husband's buddies works in construction and just loves it and gets paid great, like gets paid a really great, has a great income and has a specialized job that he's worked up through and been trained on the job and is very satisfied. And so I think that it's important that we notice the work that's happening around us too. And something else that we do is we talk about the role that those jobs, the very vital role that many jobs play in the whole system, our whole system that we are embedded in, you know, having smooth roads means that we can get to work that groceries can be delivered, you know, all of those things, right? 

Oie: I love that, that you do that and you know you're doing something that I think is very fundamental as parents is lead by example, right? So you're curious about the world and you're talking out loud to your kids about, oh look at over there, you're observing the world yourself and then kind of leading by example for them, because you're sharing your thoughts out loud with them so that they can be curious too. So great job.

Laura: Oh, thank you. So, one thing that I think though that we struggle with that I know I struggle with is having been in the kind of the high achieving academic pressure world for so long, There are times where I catch myself with old thinking, especially like, so right now my oldest daughter's future career, what she says she wants to do is she wants to work at a doggie daycare, that's what she wants to do and there's a part of me that in my head is like that's a job she could have in the summer as a high school student, but that's not like an end career and that's pushing and striving for her and I it's really hard to like hold myself back and be kind of open and accepting and enthusiastic for her for whatever she's saying that her interest is in.

Do you have any tips for parents who are kind of in that place where they know like I am, I know I'm supposed to like not feel those that way, but I do anyway and let's just be honest, we're human and that's all there any advice for us?

Oie: I'm still proud of you for being self aware of that. First of all I do have a couple of tips, one when your daughter gets old enough, I think it's important to share your story that you just told us with her because you know, kind of, I don't wanna say exposing her to your failures, that's a terrible phrase, I just said, you know what I mean? 

You know, be vulnerable to your children and show them that this is what it means to be human, you know, everybody has biases and expectations and they pop in our head and they're there for all these reasons that we grew up with, but yet what we value is different and just show her how that is a constant, you know, journey as human beings to kind of lead by your values versus kind of where your head goes on that. So that's the first tip and then yes, I have two more tips. 

One thing is once your daughter gets older enough we have like strength finders assessment, that Gallup that we use from the Gallup company. And they have one for teens, they can take it well. They have two of them. They have one for 10 to 14 year olds and then older and then adults. And it identifies your top five strengths. It sounds like one of your top strengths is an achiever. My one, number one strength is achiever, so I know what that means is, you know, always wanting to achieve something new and great and achieve a goal, I love that, that just makes me so happy as your daughter gets older, maybe she has the same strength and so to have her be in line with you as far as strength might be something really cool or she might not have that strength at all and it's important to pay attention to why she wants to be it was that doggy daycare, what's appealing to her about that, right? 

And then give her options of how based on her strength, what role she could play in that industry in that world, because as a kid, she only knows, you know this much as far as jobs are concerned, but just expose her to that and understand as a strength, you know, whether she could be a thinker or a helper or organizer or do her creative, you know, doggy day care, you can you can take that concept and really help her understand how can she can apply her natural talents to that world.

Laura: Oh 100%, I think that we will move in that direction over time, with her. I think right now she just wants to play with puppies all day, that's what she thinks she's gonna do. But I mean, she's already like, we have a written contract that when she turns 13, I will help her start a dog walking business. So she definitely has goals in mind for those things. But I think, like, I think the big struggle though is being really vulnerable with ourselves and very aware of what biases we might be carrying, what old stories and narratives we might have, especially as our kids move closer to that college or not decision or that which college decision, it's really, I think important for us to hold ourselves kindly and gently, but shift to our side and let the kids be front and center because it's their life, you know?

Oie: Right. Right. So going back to that college thing, I mean, applying what we just talked about to college again, you know, think about if college is important to you, why is it important? And peel that onion and then have a discussion with your team. You know, I have this expectation or have this desire however you wanna word it, this desire for you to go to college and here are the reasons why, and here's why I think that, you know, when I grew up this was part of my life and because of that, it made me hold onto this value and like I said, they might agree with you or they might think about that differently.

And so that's where I think the college or not college discussion needs to go. And also remember, You know, 20 years ago or even when our parents were going to school, education looks very different now than it did back then. There are so many more options. I was just talking deny about this the other day because it was about okay, depending on where you wanted to go in your life and what you want to do and how you want to make an impact and what do you want to build your expertise on? 

You're going to have to get some continued education. And so depending on the expertise you want, it could be college, it could be trade school, it could be, you know, getting a coaching certification or anything like that. I mean there's so many options or it could be simply, you know, reading a bunch of books, I mean books are amazing these days, you can learn anything and everything really. 

The internet has so many online courses. I mean there's just so many options and that's what's important is what are they actually good at where and how do they want to make an impact? And then how do they build those skills and what options are available? And college is just one of them? And if college adds value beyond the education like learning life skills, having building that base friends kind of group, I've heard that too, talk out loud with your spouse and your team as a family and talk about if college isn't something really that they're keen on, how could they get that otherwise.

Laura: Because I get the same experience.

Oie: Right, there are many, many different options or you know, come to the realization that while having a strong friend group from college might be important for you, it might not be important for your kid.

Laura: Yeah, but it's hard for parents, I think to release that what's important for us might not be important to our kids, but we have to because it's their lives that they're gonna have to go off and live, you know.

Oie: Right, I have a great example of this nine Irish is talking about earlier this summer, you know, having summer jobs between freshman year and sophomore year because she's just finished her freshman year last year. And one of the things is, you know, my husband when he came home for the summer, he worked like crazy during the summer like 12-hour days. And his goal was to earn enough money to pay for school so that he wouldn't have to necessarily work that much during the school year. So, he would just like work crazy 12 hour shifts. Crazy, crazy, crazy, worked at the American can making type of package, so he's like, you know, Mr. Hardcore Worker and so he was kind of on nine to get you know, a summer job or a couple of summer jobs. And she was very like, I don't know if I want that and then she comes close to us, which I'm glad she did is you know mom and dad, I really value summer to kind of regenerate school, the school year is hard. And so I have to do a lot of thinking and so it's really my time for my mental health to rejuvenate and that's what's important to me. I value kind of getting back to center as far as mental health and refreshing myself and you know as a parent, I value hard work. But I also value, you know, getting rejuvenation in your soul because that's important you need that when you have to go to school and value both. So I'm glad you shared that with us.

Laura: And how beautiful to be 19 and already know that that's a vital part of having a fulfilling and passionate life as the rest. And rejuvenation is absolutely essential part of that, that you can't just work yourself into the ground. What's interesting too is that probably your husband had that same value. He liked to be able to go be in school and be able to focus on his studies and have time to relax while he was in college while he was in classes and so there's it's the value is the same but how it looks and how it's enacted is different, you know, it's interesting. Yeah. You know, when I was in college, my dad really wanted me to work at the library because that's where my sister had worked and she could study and you know, all the time while she was working, you know, and that was like the ideal job and I did not want to do that. 

I didn't have to study a lot anyway and I worked at a travel agency and I had the time of my life working at that travel agency, it was so much fun. I got to go on so many free trips and it was awesome and I just had different goals for my time working in college and I think it's so important to get curious with your kids about what their goals are. And I think that, you know, the listeners of this podcast will have been, you know, lots of my listeners have kids who are much younger and they will have been practicing this getting curious what's important to you, what matters to you, what's working for you. 

If we, I think if we're practicing this from a very young age with their kids, it's not quite a shock as much of a shock when we, it's time for them to go to college. And they're like, no, I'm not going to college, I'm going to trade school, I want to be a plumber. There's no point for me to go to college right now, you know. Thank you, this was so much fun to talk about this with you. Is there anything else you want to share? I'm, I want to make sure people know where to find you and your amazing daughter who are doing this cool work. 

Oie: Yes, you can find us at projectwhoami.com and we have a special free guide for those who maybe have a little bit older kids. So you can go to projectwhoami.com/career and they can find those free guides. And those are customized free guides based on people's natural talents, you know, so there's six categories of that. Doer, helper, thinker, creative organizer and what was the other one? Did I say helper? 

There's six of them. Anyway, you can go check that out. We're also on Facebook and Instagram and as I mentioned, we're a family business. Nya is part of the business and she's definitely got the Instagram thing going. So if you are curious about, you know, teenagers perspectives, she shares it all with an Instagram. So there's lots of different stories and reels that you can check out there. 

Laura: That's awesome. Well thank you so much for sharing your story and your expertise with us. 

Oie: Thank you Laura for having me.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

Episode 124: College or Not Series: Four Conversation to Help Your Child Find their Passion with Stephanie Haynes

For the next couple of weeks, we are going to be having a conversation around college and careers for our kids. I will be bringing in colleagues and experts to discuss how we can support our children as they grow and find their passion and career that is fulfilling for them. When I meet with a family for the first time, or they sit down to do one of my courses, one of the first things we do is start crafting a vision of the future: hopes, goals, and dreams for their kids. At some point, most families mention that they want their kids to be "successful" and that opens a whole new conversation!

What does "success" mean to you?

What does that look like in action and at various life stages?

How does your child define success? What if their definition and yours differ?

The world is waking up to the idea that there are many pathways to and definitions of a successful future, and I'm hoping that this series will get you thinking about these big questions for your own family. No matter your child's age, there is a space for you in this conversation, but I hope it's particularly helpful for you if you have teens and tweens!

For the first episode, I brought in Stephanie Haynes. She is an Education Coach and Consultant. Specializing in post-high school pathway development, goal setting and time management, and classroom and school culture development, Stephanie’s vision is to motivate her clients to take the time to create a compelling vision for their future, their classroom, or their school and develop actionable steps to build it into a reality. ​

Here's a summary of our conversation:

  • Changing the cultural stigma around non-college post-secondary education

  • Top 4 conversation starters for parents to use with their high school teens

  • The importance of developing passion and clear visions of the future

  • Why college isn’t for everyone and why parents don’t need to panic about it


If you want to have a guide in navigating all the options available to our kids after high school, check out Stephanie's book, College is Not Mandatory.
Follow Stephanie on Instagram and Facebook, and visit her website www.stephaniehaynes.net.


TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this week, we're going to talk about how we can support our children as they grow and think about what they want to do with their future. To help me with this conversation this week, we're going to have Stephanie Haynes who is an education coach and consultant and helps parents navigate the kind of the murky waters of figuring out what their kids are going to do after high school. So Stephanie, welcome to the show, why don't you tell us more a little bit about what you do and who you are?

Stephanie: Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it. Yeah, so as an education coach and consultant, my role is basically to help parents and teenagers navigate how to make it through high school and then out beyond successfully. But that wasn't always what I did. I went to college, I don't know, a long time ago and for it to be a high school English teacher. And so I have been involved in education since probably the early nineties when I graduated college and I've been a home school educator for my own children and other people's children.

I've been a high school teacher, charter school teacher, I've been around high schoolers my entire career and it got to the point where I thought, you know what, there's some things that need to change and I don't know if I can do that from the classroom. So I retired about two years ago and launched into this whole coaching program to really help teens definitely figure out what they want to do after high school in order to help save family dynamics, right? I saw a lot of parents frustrated, a lot of teens frustrated, like there's gotta be a better way to do this. And so that's kind of where I am and that's kind of how I did it. 

Laura: Absolutely Stephanie and I really appreciate this. So, you know, I don't talk a lot about my own educational story and journey, but when I was making the decision for where to go to college, I was very much pressured on where to go and I was being pressured to go to university that didn't even have the major for the field I wanted to go into, I wanted to be a marine biologist, I wanted to study whale populations and conservation, that's what I wanted to do. And the college that I ended up going to that I did go to actually the only one I applied to through other bad advice and that was driven more by my parents’ ego than anything else.

I didn't even have that major and so I ended up going into psychology which was kind of a second best for me and now I have this career where I help parents and family, but there's this piece of me that always wonders like what would have happened if I'd had someone like you in my life who was helping me see, you know that I have these passions and these interests it just who knows, you know, maybe we would be on a marine biology like nerd podcast right now instead of a child development and family relationships, nerd podcast.

I think I was always going to be a nerd, but so I guess what are some of the things that you want, parents who have, you know, kids of any age really thinking about in terms of, you know, because we come into parenthood, I feel like this is the longest question ever, Stephanie, I'm so sorry. But we come into parenthood with these ideas about what our kids’ lives are going to be like and lots of things change after the kid is actually here and we find out who they are. And most of us in this community who are listening to this podcast are holding this place where they have these good visions and goals and intentions for their kids that they're attempting to hold loosely and not kind of put their agenda onto their child. And at the same time we bump up against kind of the cultural norm that our parents decide who we are and what we do and so help us figure this out a little bit.

Stephanie: I can. I actually can't. And it's not too long of a question. I love your passion. I love your enthusiasm behind the topic because you know, I think you hit on something really important one is that there is this cultural stigma that says, if you don't go to college, you're not going to be successful and it's one that most of the generation after me kind of grew up with, right? My parents, when I was in high school were like, you're gonna go to college, my mom wanted me to go because she never got to go. My dad never went and there's that kind of understanding, but I, luckily I chose a career that needed a college degree. Fast forward to my daughter is 23. 

My son is 19 and we were having a conversation about my daughter specifically because school is not her thing, it just has been a struggle for her and we helped her wrestle with this. She ultimately chose college and then didn't know how to leave it. She didn't want to stay, but she didn't know how to leave without feeling like a failure. So she forced her way to stay in it, graduate with a degree she hates and is now happily in cosmetology school. And so we realized that, you know, there is this stigma and it's beyond just us, It is a cultural stigma and it's very hard to face your friends or to face your teachers who say you're so smart, why aren't you going to college as if that's the best thing you can do. And so I think his parents.

Laura: Or the only way to be smart.

Stephanie: Right. You're not going to college, you must not be smart enough, right? That's so not true. It's just not, there's different kinds of intelligence and neither are better or worse than each other. And so as parents, when we hold loosely to that idea of just watching our child grow and watching our child become who they are and nurturing that along the way. The conversation we can start having are not about what you want to do with your life, but what's interesting to you, what do you notice about the world around you?

And you know those are generic general questions but engaging our children in the culture that they're in and asking their thoughts and opinions about it can help them to start becoming aware of what it is they're involved in and then seeking them say, okay, how do you feel about that? What do you want to do about that? And that can help unleash a passion or an interest. Who knows what that can do? You know, in the case of you wanting to be with whales and marine biologists and conservationists and all kinds of things. 

That passion can be in our kids and whether or not they would have stayed with you, who knows? But that idea is okay. So if you were gonna follow that passion, what would that look like and don't tell them oh you should be a marine biologist. Well if you were gonna follow, what would it look like if you really did want to save the world, what would you want to do? You know, just leave it open to them and ask them those big bold questions and if they don't have the answer, it's ok. So you know what I think about it, we'll talk about it again in a little while. it's okay for kids not to know right off the bat the whole answer. 

Laura: Yes, I so agree. And I think that you're highlighting something to that this spirit of curiosity is so important to bring to these conversations. 

Stephanie: Yeah, I think you're asking on the parents’ point to what can be, what can we really be curious about for our kids? 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, one of the things that I'm thinking about is that I think that sometimes when we haven't had these conversations ourselves, when we haven't been on the receiving end of like what does it feel like to be in a parent-child relationship where no one is imposing their agenda over you and they are allowing you to emerge your interests to emerge. They're approaching you with curiosity, it can be really hard to know how does that look? How does it feel? I was wondering do you have any like kind of just general like conversation starters for families who are trying to figure this out and don't really know where to start? 

Stephanie: Yeah, for sure. You know, the very first one, depending on where you, where you are in this process, right? Is either to admit to yourself and or admit to your child that you might have been trying to push an agenda if you've got young kids, this is not necessary. You just need to identify it to yourself, right? Be open and honest and say, oh yeah, I really want my child to be this because it's important to me rather than waiting to let them decide what they want to do. So just kind of work in that part first and that's the first conversation to have. 

Laura: So it's almost like with yourself having a conversation with yourself, what is, what are you go ahead? I interrupted you. But.

Stephanie: No, no, no, you're fine. It's very true. Have that conversation with you. If there's a significant other in the life of that child, that's part of that decision-making process then the two of you or three of you or however many are involved have this discussion together. How are we going to approach this? What agendas are we already wrestling with and what do we need to do about that? So that's the very first conversation is just that once you kind of agreed and decided you're going to try and let your child figure things out for themselves.

It's to have that conversation with your child and just on a regular but not incessant basis. Once in a while, especially the younger they are, the less frequently should be. But just gonna say, hey, you know, what do you think about when you think about something you might want to do, what interests you and let them speak? The biggest thing that I noticed is that parents here, oh, I wanna be an astronaut. They go, well you're not good at math, why would you want to be astronaut? 

Laura: I can't imagine any of my parents saying those things to the kids.

Stephanie: Right, and that's because, you know, you're at that younger stage, right? But when they get to be older and the aptitude don't seem to be, their parents can sometimes say, oh you're not doing really well in math, are you sure that's what you want to do and that I think starts killing for our kids, that idea that they can dream. And so if your child says they want to be an astronaut then say, okay, how can I help you figure out what an astronaut does or don't tell them.

Laura: Or how can I figure out how, like how you can have a place in that process? Because I think lots of people think that, you know, the astronaut is the big job that we all see, but there's thousands of jobs. 

Stephanie: Yes, exactly. One of the things that I, when I work with my older students is we help them kind of get a general career cluster area and then we look at all the different careers in that particular area and we look to see how they all fit in with each other. Doesn't mean you have to choose one, you might get to do five of them because they all kind of go along with each other right? Starting versus ending. So that would be the second kind of conversation to have.

Laura: Can I just add something on? Stephanie sorry. 

Stephanie: Yeah sure.

Laura: So I love that you were mentioning that when they're little, we don't have to do this so much, you know, as much as when they're older, but that we should still be thinking about this and checking in and you know, one of the ways that I do this and build this into kind of our yearly rhythm is that the beginning and end of each school year, we take a first day of school picture in the last day of school picture and we have this little thing that I update at the beginning and end of the school and one of the questions is when I grow up, I want to and then it fills in the blank and you can be filled in with like things like I want to climb a mountain or I want to be a veterinarian, like whatever it is. But we ask that question, I mean, so that's something that is just built in that twice a year we ask our kids to just consider what are some things that they want to do when they grow up. 

Stephanie: That's fantastic because you can find to your child continually says things like that are involved in nature involved in outdoors involved, you know, being in that kind of environment, then you can say, well, what would that look like if you've got to do that every day and ask their thoughts on that. And that's the thing is to have those open-ended questions that don't guide a student or your child in a particular pathway, but really ask them to think and be curious now as they get older doing this becomes more difficult because there's more that they recognize they're risking. And that's the third conversation is to let your child know that no matter what they choose, you are here to support them and your job is not to tell them what to do or not to do is to help them explore and discover the answers for themselves.

And that generally happens with older kids, right? It's not just with the younger population, but if you're asking your Tween who generally may or may not talk to you depending on the day. Right? And you're trying to get the information, it can be very frustrating as a parent. So instead of sitting down and looking them in the eye and say, hey, I want to know what you want to do with your life, which we all kind of do or we let the grandparents do it or somebody else instead say, hey, listen, I know you're getting involved in a lot of different activities and I'd like to help support those into potential things you might do after high school, why don't you think about a few things and then about a week, you and I will go fishing or you and I will go do something without that child life and we'll just kind of talk about it, just tell me what your thoughts are and make it low key, make it not a decision-making conversation, make it about them developing curiosity and if neither one of you know answers, that's okay.

That's why we have google and other search engines. We can go back and say, well what does it mean to be an astronaut or what does it mean to, you know, become a cosmetologist? What does that look like? you can learn together and then that really helps them decide. That's really something they want to do and you're offering your support. 

Laura: Yeah, I love that. And I can imagine too that that would be helpful for those of us who are kind of anxious parents and who have lots of concerns about those things to be able to be curious together about like what's the earning potential, you know, what is the like career trajectory for different options? I think that lots of us, you know, adults are thinking about those things that in a way that kids aren't. 

And I would imagine doing some of that research together or even doing it separately, but with the idea that we're going to do some of this research separately and then we're gonna meet up and share what we found can let us work through some of those anxieties so that we don't project them and hand them to the child. You know what I mean?

Stephanie: Oh, 100%. When we're young parents, there's a bazillion resources and books and all kinds of things to tell you how to parent through the toddler years. The strong-willed child you know that it's great when we get to teenagers and we get to how do we help them figure out to do in this world afterwards? There's nothing, that was what shocked me when I sat down to write this book was wait there are no guides. There is nothing out here to help me figure it out. There's many things to help me help my child get an ACT score or go to college or figure out what college but not something that looks at all the different options and helps me as a parent figure out how to help my child determine which is best. 

And so I think that's what all parents are struggling with is we don't know what we don't know, we don't know how necessarily feel like we can be competent enough to help our child because there's no one out there to teach us how to do this. And that's where I think we kind of get stuck cause we feel like we have to stick with the current cultural mandate because that has shown granted to be successful. So therefore it must be right. But it's not always successful for every child and that's for us as parents. We have the obligation to say what's really right for my child and how can I help them determine what that is for themselves and help them be successful in their own unique way that they've been designed to be successful?

Laura: Oh, I love that, Yes, and can we talk for a second about like working with our children to craft and understanding or a definition, a unique definition of success. How can we as parents do that help our kids just, you know, define success for themselves because that's something geez, Stephanie, I am still learning to do for myself right now, I'm still learning how to do that for me. 

Stephanie: We all are, and that's the key is that we ask kids to determine what they need to do to be successful as an adult and yet none of us even have it figured out and our definition of success keeps changing. So no wonder they're kind of confused. We always change and its season of life changes definitions of success, doesn't it? Right, So they're in this crazy season of life as a teenager or a middle school or high school and oh my goodness, if you ever spent just a week in high school, you'd wonder how your kid makes it through the day, I promise you, I promise you it's not because high school is bad, it's because it's busy, there's a lot going on. A lot of different things are coming at our kids. So we asked them to define success for themselves.

They often don't have a clue where to start and that's okay? You can ask and say, okay, so who do you know in the world that you would say is successful, what did they do? Or who are they that you think makes them successful? Have them clarify their values that way by looking outside rather than inside because it's often really hard to identify the inside, but they can look at maybe your best friend or their dad or you or whomever and go, I think you're amazingly successful and then ask them, so what do you see about me that makes you think I'm successful?

What does that look like, chances are they're gonna give you something you never ever thought of, that, you didn't think you were successful in at all, but they're seeing in a whole different way because they're seeing it through their values and you can ask them to elaborate on that as you get closer. So, let me give you an example, I think in our conversation at some point we talked about, my daughter is now in cosmetology school, well there was a time when she and I had this conversation about success and she had a really hard time because she thought success had to be what I was doing and at that time I was running a ministry, I was super volunteer, I was doing home school stuff, I was all over the place and she thought that's what the definition of success was and we had to really hash through that and say, wait a minute. It's not about what I'm doing that's successful. 

If you don't want that, that's your definition of success and you will be just as successful when you follow your heart rather than what you see me doing. And so we definitely had some clarification of values for her at that point. And she was struggling to identify herself as like me in order to be successful rather than identifying herself for herself. And so that's a big thing that we can do for our kids is help them identify success for themselves. And often asking about other people, helps us see where they're comparing themselves to.

Laura: Stephanie, I feel curious right now, do you think that if this would be easier for teenagers and parents of teenagers? Because a lot of the folks who are listening right now have younger kids have kids who are still in the toddler years or the early elementary years, do you think that this whole thing would be easier if we were doing this now on the small stuff with our kids?

Stephanie: I do. I think it would come a little bit more naturally and I think it wouldn't be such this pressure-building circumstance by the time they hit, you know, eighth grade, the question everybody asks every teenager's what you gonna do after high school, I mean, seriously, let them get through high school first. I think that's a big he indicates if we can start talking about it ahead of time and no pressure, there's no reason to make a decision and then keep that pressure low as they enter into middle school as they enter into high school because guess what?

Just because you don't know the next step, the minute you graduate high school does not mean you won't be successful and you have time, but we don't let kids even enjoy their senior year because they're so busy trying to figure what they want to do that they're stuck. So what's the problem with them not launching at 18? What about 18.5? What about you know, 19? What's the problem with that? And that again is a cultural stigma rather than a real big mandate? 

Laura: I agree so much. I think it's a skill I think learning to tune into yourself and listen to yourself to trust yourself to get curious with yourself. I think that that's a skill set that you can cultivate in other areas so that they have that skill when it comes to this area as an example. Whenever my kids asked to do an activity like gymnastics or music lessons or something, we have a conversation of tuning in, what are your, you know, what are you hoping to get out of this? What you know, what are the things that you know what why is this activity calling to you right now? What is it that you are needing from this activity, How will you know if this activity is right for you?

And then we check in after they've been doing it for a while and with like for example, my oldest daughter did violin a couple years ago and she did Maybe four or five weeks of it and her goals for it, her intention for it. We're not lining up with the reality of what it was turning out to be, there was a lot of pressure to practice and to be good at it, whereas she really wanted to just learn to play and you know, explore music and have fun with an instrument and we decided to drop that activity for her because it was really not meeting her goals and that was her decision. But I think guiding kids through that process early. The small stuff, you know, like the low stakes things in a variety of different areas can be really helpful. 

I mean you're the expert, but I'm guessing that having that experience that skill set and that relationship built with a parent, but the parent is there to assist you in tuning in and checking in with yourself that the parent is there to support you and figuring out what's right for you. I can imagine that would be really helpful when it comes to things like deciding college or not or college versus trade school versus gap year, you know? 

Stephanie: Yeah, you had the very big key there is developing relationship, you know, I don't think his parents were as overly intentional about developing a relationship with our children as we are about developing relationship with other adults and the problem is with that is that our children eventually gonna be adults and don't, we want to still have a relationship with them then. And so we didn't focus on really helping them identify who they are. 

Like, you've been staying with your children there and helping them get in touch with themselves and what's important to them and valuable to them, then I think we can keep that relationship going all throughout the teen years. My children, I never had a perfect relationship because it doesn't exist, but I liked my kids, you know, and I still like my kids and a lot of it comes down to the relationship that we built together even when they were wrestling with things and I'm like, I do not think you should do that in my head, but they wanted to try it. 

Okay, let's see where it goes. They have to learn that. And I think that's one of the biggest struggles that parents face is we don't want our kids to experience pain. We don't want them to experience failure or defeat and that I think is one of the biggest services we can do to our kids, not because we should let them just experience pain whenever, but because we take away from them the right to make the decision about what to do And that's not teaching them the critical thinking skills they're going to need in order to survive as an adult. 

So when we stand in for them and say, oh you didn't do well on that test, I'm gonna call the teacher and tell you need to take it again. That's not okay. What did that child due to not prepare or to prepare for that test? What can they do differently for that next one? So they can do better. Let them learn from it. Because one simple, small grade is not that big a deal.

Laura: It just isn't. 
Stephanie: We make everything a big deal every grade, everything, all of it. Then they don't even know where to place that importance. So let's help them redefine that. And you know, when it comes to grades. The only reason grades really matter is if you're planning on going to college grades don't count for anything else. As long as you graduate high school doesn't matter. Not that I'm saying your kids shouldn't go to their full potential. But the idea is, do we really want to put pressure on that versus pressure on helping them develop themselves as human being? 

Laura: Absolutely 100%. And I will tell you from experience having had education at both. Like top competitive universities and at state schools, the education that you get is entirely dependent on your effort. Like as a student and there are times when I think back on all the effort I put in pressure that I put into my high school time to get the grades and the courses on my transcript so that I could get into that elite undergrad. I mean now in my own life I'm like dang it. I wish I had taken one freaking art class instead of four science classes.

Like really did I really need physics. No, I don't know that I really needed physics, but I really wish I had taken advanced drawing to like, you know, like great for me right now because I want to do nature journaling with my kids and I don't know how to draw, you know I mean, and I'm learning how to do that now, but I was not allowed to not take the science class and to take the art class, I wasn't allowed to do it. I guess if I had pushed back harder maybe, but Right. Yeah. I don't know, I don't have the strength as a child, you know?
Stephanie: Well, and then you create a relationship dynamic with your parents that isn't healthy either, you know? So you have to make those choices and that's where I think teams are getting stuck. They really want to do what they're interested in, but one they're afraid of disappointing their parents too. They're afraid of being ostracized by people at school because you are still under the umbrella that you have to have college to be successful and three if they take that risk, will there be somebody there to support them in it as they try and figure it out. And that's a really scary place for teens to be. So why wouldn't they just choose the easiest path and go where they think everybody else is going? 

Laura: Of course it is. And you know, it's funny that we think all the time about how we want our teens to be resistant to peer pressure, you know? But what about our pressure? Don't we want them to be like resistant against like outside influence, even if it's us, you know, I just I don't know, it's an interesting conversation to be having because I do think that I talked about this a lot with younger kids that kids want to please their parents. For the most part, kids know that the parent-child relationship is important to them. 

They want to keep their parent close and that doesn't change just because your kid is a teenager and they are quite likely to do things that aren't really what's true and right for them in order to please you, we don't want that. That's not what any of us, I think who are listening to this podcast want for our kids, We want our kids to know who they are and follow their inner voice, you know, I mean, Yeah, but it's it's hard. 

Stephanie: It is. It's very, very hard, you know, I think that's why that's one of the reasons I hope that this book actually makes an impact because I feel like if we at this stage can help this current generation, even the ones just after them really start to lean into who they are and what they want and start developing that clear pathway. And it's not like willy nilly, I'm just gonna go do this for a year and just decide, no, no, no, there's research that goes into this, there's planning that goes into this, this is not like I'm gonna wake up one day and be an artist and off I go, no, no, no, no, we're gonna as a family, we're gonna help you plan out that pathway?

And we're gonna give you some opportunity to check it out ahead of time, make sure it's really what you want. So that by the time you're ready to launch, you have a clear plan that you're absolutely excited about doing. And off you go, that's the key, right, is to help them get that clarity, not just let them go. And I think that's where we can start doing this with our children when they're younger is helping them like you do with your daughter. What is it you want to do? Why is that important to you?

How is that going to impact you, what are your goals with this, what you want to get out of it and helping them continue to explore is that really working or not. And keep asking those questions so they can decide for themselves what to do next. And that's the, I think the big part because it may be that they really do want to go to college and like you said when they're driven college makes a huge amount of sense.

It's worth the investment. It's worth the time, It's amazing. But when you have kids are like, I don't even know what I wanna do and I'm gonna show up and maybe I'll go to class some days, maybe I won't go to class. Maybe there's something else I want to do. I don't even know. And the next thing, you know, they're struggling or they're failing out that investment just went down the tank. Right? So it's important to help them decide they really want to make that investment first before they commit to it.

Laura: Absolutely. And I mean, especially to with the, I was listening to this NPR report the other day, the price of college is up like 500% since when I was in college, like it's it's astronomical the debt that people are incurring for a degree that they won't even use. 

Stephanie: Yes. And that's the thing, right? Again I think college offers a valuable service for sure for those who need a college degree to do what they want to do, you've got to deal with it, you've got to go through and hopefully save for your scholarships and so on because there's a lot of ways to help pay for college but you do have to think about in that one vein is the career you're going to end up with going to pay off the amount of money invested in the in the creation of that education and if it's not choose a different school because it's not worth the more expensive school just for a name on a diploma that nobody really ever sees.

Laura: It just isn't. It's not Yeah, no it's Yeah I so agree Stephanie, I feel like I totally derailed you because you had four conversation starters and I think did you only say three of them?

Stephanie: We got we only got 23. Okay. We talked about the fourth one. You actually asked the right questions is that fourth one is how do we help them decide you know that? And then the last question is how can I help you as your parents decide what it is you want to do, how can I help you do that? And if they say we'll just figure it out for me. No, you say no, no no this is your life, I can't live it for you. You have to decide but I can set up boundaries around that for you and I can say okay, you know by the time you're a sophomore you should have, this may be narrowed down to like three or four top things careers, not options careers that you're interested in and then we'll spend some time learning about those careers, learning about that.

Industry gets you, maybe an internship or a job shadow gets you involved with family members, maybe that are in those career industries, whatever that takes to give them exposure to really decide which one. Or maybe they still want all three. Okay, next, we gotta figure out how do we get into those careers? What does that look like and help them identify those steps? And the options available to them are as varied as the kids. There are five main options, but the combinations of them are infinite. So you, you know, the five, so there's, you know, four-year colleges, right? That's what everybody knows there. 

And that also includes collegiate athletics, but there's also community colleges, which now offer a ton of certification programs as well as an associate’s degree. And there are some programs that are actually certification and associates. So in two years, you graduate your a degree or AS Degree and have all the skills you need to step into the workplace, which you don't need to go to four years of college for. You can also go straight to community college just for a certification program in multiple different areas and come out completely trained in anywhere between 18 months and 36 months, depending on the certifications. 

And if you want to play collegiate athletics, but you maybe weren't quite good enough for the four-year colleges or you're not quite sure your grades are ready, JUCO has a hugely competitive format for their sports and you get recruited from there and your coaches, all they really want you to do is get recruited to the four year, that's where you want to go. So you've got an option there. The other, the next option is to do an apprenticeship or a trade program. Apprenticeships are paid education experiences and by paid, I mean you get a full salary, generally get benefits plus you get scalable wage, they can start as early as 16. They're also adult ones that start as early as 18 and you work with an industry professional who has decided they want to mentor somebody. This is not something that was just thrown together. 
They chose this company, chose to invest in the next generation. So they want you there, you get college courses and you get paid. So that's an apprentice. It's insane how many apprenticeship programs there are out there that kids just aren't paying attention to. So there's a lot of that and then there's trade schools, things like you can learn cyber technology, you can learn cosmetology, you can learn basic medical care, you know, C N A M. T. All of those things are all part of trade school networks. So if you get involved in a trade school right after high school or even little after you've got 18 months and you are in a career and you are working now, that's the end, great if you get into say, CNA was a certified nursing assistant and you want to continue on maybe eventually and get your RN well now you're saving up money to pay for that.

And now that degree means that much more to you because you have an actual job that you know, you want, right? So it's much clearer then you've got college, community college trade schools, okay then you've got the military right? And a lot of people overlook the military because immediately they think they think, you know, Afghanistan, they think fighting, they think front lines, but did you know that every career that's in the civilian world is actually in the military as well. So they need cosmetologists, they need dog trainers, they need chefs, they need all kinds of things that people don't think about and they pay you. So you can enroll and you can go into the military in three different ways. 

You can enlist, you can do an ROTC program through college, and then join in. Or you can get a college degree and then join in as an officer and you can go to a service academy like Annapolis right? So you can do all of these different opportunities and college education gets paid for if you need the full degree, not only that they're paying you while you're in the military and you get benefits, the whole thing and I can't even tell you the amount of money that soldiers are making, but it's not necessarily just soldiers, right? 

So when you're talking about anybody in the private sector, any career in the military, they're getting paid all that plus they get to travel a ton. So there's a lot of that going on. And then the fifth one is the gap season, which every parent dreads those terms. They think gap here means sitting on the couch playing Xbox forever and ever. 

There are several accredited programs that put together accredited gap season programs that are structured that have adults in charge that have a time to them that have classes, certifications, all kinds of things all over the world and you can even use staff some money towards those if they are accredited ones, which I wouldn't recommend to anything that's not accredited, but you can do those between college and high school between, you know, it's halfway through college. Even without college and certifications and then choose something else, there's no reason not to step into something different once you graduate high school because there's a ton of different options available. 

Laura: I had no idea that there were like accredited gap year programs. And I think it's important to note too that many four-year colleges will allow you to defer your enrollment for a year too. So even if you get in and you, your kiddo realizes then like, no, I'm not sure this is right. You can then do that gap year or do something else for a year to figure it out before you start incurring, that's massive crushing student debt, that can be a part of it. 

Stephanie: Exactly, exactly. I think that should be part of the conversation before you choose to go to is what financial obligation does your team have for, for any choice, what is that really going to look like and help them process the amount of debt they're stepping into for any of that, determine if that's worth it. 

Laura: That's so important. When I was 18 and going to college, I had no idea what I like financially, or what was happening with all that money going to school. I had no idea, I really needed someone to sit down and talk to me about those things and I think my dad tried, but it wasn't very successful, I was 18, you know, we're still, our brains are still really young at that point.

Stephanie: They are, and that's why I think that you're saying, what can we do ahead of time, what we do now is start helping your children identify the cost of things, helping them identify, you know, what is it cost to live in the house of living and compare that to something they can relate to. So a mortgage might be like 1500 trips to Disneyland depending on, you know, your, what you want to do when you're in Disneyland, you know, that kind of stuff, we help them identify.

Laura: We do our mortgage and stuff is right now when they ask how much it costs to like live in our house, we do it in stuffed animals from Amazon.

Stephanie: I love that. I love that. That helps them see it, right?

Laura: It does, it really helps them visualize like how much that is absolutely okay. So Stephanie, I really appreciated this conversation that we had today. I think I'm really glad that we got to talk about this because I think that it's important for this stuff to be on the radar of parents with younger kids so that they're thinking about it more. And I also, I think it's so important to be having these conversations for the parents who have older kids too.

I just, you know, I think too, like I know that there are some people who are listening who have kids who are already launched and you're listening and things didn't go the way that Stephanie and I have been talking about today. It's never too late to circle back, you know, It would mean a lot to me if my dad came to me and apologized for pressuring me so much to go in one certain direction, you know, and I'm almost 38, you know, it would still mean so much to me if he did that. So I think it's there's always room for us as parents to circle back to clarify to express remorse and regret. Like those are always options for us, no matter how old are kids are.

Stephanie: Agreed for sure. And it's all about the relationship you want to have something big like that in the way, it's not going to give you the kind of relationship you really want.

Laura: I think that that's so important. I think that that's something to just keep coming back to over and over again as parents are what is really important to me when it comes to my kid. And most of us, the honest answer is my relationship with my child. 

It's always going to be more important to us than where they go to college or what they do for a career. I hope so. And if it's not, then we have to take a look at that and realign priorities. Thank you so much, Stephanie, this is so great. Why don't you make sure everybody hears the name and title of your book? And of course, it's in the show notes that I'd love for people to be able to find you and seek you out for support. 

Stephanie: Sure, the name of the book is College is Not Mandatory, A Parent's Guide to Navigating the Options Available to Our Kids After High School. You can find that on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. It's pretty easy to search in there for College is Not Mandatory and it pops up. You can also find me online, I am at StephanieHaynes.net and you can find all about me, you can learn about the book, you can learn about just the different things that I'm involved in and you can find out what coaching looks like for an educator, a parent or student, you know, you can find out what that whole process is about. 

You can also find me on Facebook, @EdCoachStephHaynes and I actually have a Facebook group called College is Not Mandatory and if you're listening and you don't have 1/8 grader or older because that's one of the questions, just go ahead and put up and put in there that you, you know, hurt me on this podcast. No problem, because if you're here to learn and find figure out how to do this really well, I want you in that group, so coming over and you can find me on Instagram and, @EdCoachStephHaynes. 

Laura: Thank you so much, Stephanie, that's wonderful, I really appreciate that you are helping us broaden our ideas of success for our children and helping parents kind of get out of the way so that we can support their kids in being who they are meant to be, as opposed to who we want them to be. Well, Stephanie, thank you so much again for being here with us. It was great to get to know you and I  just think what you're doing is awesome.

Stephanie: Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!