Episode 156: Social Skills for Connection with Miriam Campbell
/This week on The Balanced Parent podcast, we will have a deep-dive discussion into how we can help our children develop crucial skills for building meaningful social connections, like perspective-taking and problem solving. Miriam Campbell will be joining me in this discussion. She is a mom who uses her experience as a speech therapist, social worker, teacher, and parent to support parents who want to develop their children's social and emotional skills.
Here's a summary of what we discussed:
Social Skills for Connection: What they are and how we can help kids develop these skills
Signs to check for when a child needs support for social and emotional development
If you want to consult with Miriam, you can schedule one here and visit her website skillsforconecction.com for more resources. You can also find her on Instagram @skills4connection.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: All right. Hello, everybody. This is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, We're going to be taking a little bit of a deep dive into figuring out how we can support our children in developing a really important skill that of perspective, taking something that young kids aren't terribly great at. And so helping me with this conversation is Miriam Campbell. She is the creator of skills for connection and I'm so happy to have you here, Miriam, thanks for joining us. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do.
Miriam: First of all, thank you so much for having me here. I'm so excited to be here with All you. And my favorite thing to do is talk about parenting, which is something that I love with people who are interested in growing and developing because anyone who's listening to this podcast is somebody who fits that bill. So I'm so excited to be here and thank you so much for having me on.
Laura: Oh, absolutely. Yes. We, we love geek out about child development and parenting and this like really complicated thing of growing up ourselves as we're raising our kids.
Miriam: Yes. Yes. And that's really what, what um my starting place whenever I'm talking with parents is recognizing that we are all part of this journey. I started out working directly with kids as a speech therapist, as a social worker and helping them with develop social skills.
And as I was working with them, I realized that the people who are most qualified to be able to provide that service are really the parents. And I saw that as far as carryover, you know, a skill of whatever I was teaching them in the 1 to 1 sessions or just trying to like, make sure that it was very relevant and something that the parents were on board with that when the parents were the ones who had the skills in hand, then they were able to become the conduits of all this incredible, incredible social emotional development. So that was really, you know, how I transitioned into working with parents with skill, you know, helping their kids develop skills for connection and, and I know that's something that you also are passionate about that process of growing as, as we're helping our kids grow.
Laura: Absolutely. You know, Miriam, I had a very similar experience when I was a therapist, I would spend, you know, an hour a week in session with a child and felt so limited. And so so just kind of shackled by our time constraints and when I started really working and involving parents and teaching parents how to do therapeutic play skills with their kids in session. And then they would, and I sent them home to do that at home with their kids. The results were just so much better. Parents are so powerful and I, I don't, I love, I love parents.
Miriam: The same they're like the, the heroes, the heroes, because the, the kids already have rapport with them, they already trust, you know, they trust you, they trust you. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's actually modeling the skills that we want our kids to have. Like, we want our kids to develop themselves internally. Then when they're in a relationship with us and we are practicing our own skills as we try and become better parents, better people. You know, we are, we're actually letting them see, oh, this is what it looks like to be a great person.
This is what it looks like to try and care enough about the other person and think about who the other is and who am I? And then that, you know, interaction between the two. That's, that's really what, you know, I see again and again, that incredible role modeling that parents are doing as they develop these skills and as they help their kids develop these skills, kids are like, oh, this is a real thing.
Laura: Yes. OK. So I really want to dive into that piece of it a little bit because I think I don't know about you. But a lot of the, the families that, you know, I kind of see out there and sometimes those that come to me are in a place where they're having a hard time with one of their kids and they want to know the thing that will get their kid to change. And unfortunately most of the time it's us that has to change because of this modeling piece.
And so I'm kind of curious about how we can go about modeling healthy self-regulation skills, healthy social skills, you know, really positive relationships and healthy relationships for our kids when we ourselves don't have those skills. Like, what is the first step for someone who's like, thinking about like, OK, so I've got this four year old or this five year old, I needed to be teaching them certain things and realizing, I don't actually know how to do those things myself. Like when I'm frustrated, I feel like throwing something and I stuff it down and I don't actually know what to do with my frustration instead of the throwing, you know, what do we, what's the first step for someone?
Miriam: That is so great, such a great question. And I really like, you know, first of all, acknowledge a parent's uh honesty and being able to even acknowledge that, you know, thing within themselves. Yeah, the awareness and the humility that that takes where it's like, oh, I want to be the role model. I want to be the one who's doing it all right. And that honesty to be able to say like, oh, I actually have space for growth in this and that is such a powerful statement to be able to make.
And I, I'll tell you the theory behind it and then I'll talk you through it. So in my, in my work, what I do with parents when I'm doing parent coaching or parent training or even if I'm training therapists or teachers in school is I talk about the self and the other, the model of knowing who you are as a self and all the things that are in, included in that our emotional identification, knowing how I'm feeling, knowing like um how I can communicate, knowing my process and really knowing it like in a very experiential body aware, mind aware, honest, vulnerable, not only so beautifully tied in a bow type of experience and then being able to see the other and that dynamic when I know who I am and then I'm able to start looking outside of myself and seeing the other person.
That's the first step of connection, the first step of relationship. Because of course, in order to be able to connect to the other, there has to be an A that's connecting to B. So the A who me has to know who I am as a person to be able to then move outwards to see who the other is. So like, let's say, struggling with throwing something when I'm upset. So this is where my A is. So when I see my child and B I know where my starting point is and I'm now connecting outwards to B I can see B in, in her whole being and her whole self outside of myself. And experience who B is. Once I know who A is. Now, when we, with the tricky thing is when we get into, let's say unhealthy relationships where it's codependent or things like that is when I either only see B and I don't see A or I think B is A or I think A is B when the two start melding, we don't see ourselves as two distinct individuals. That's where we have difficulty. So I know this is, I told you I was gonna give you the abstract first. That's the abstract concept.
Laura: It's so good though. I think it's really important. So in the in family therapy, the term in mesh um comes up and that's what you're describing when we kind of don't have a firm sense of ourselves without the other. And we define our ourselves, you know, by someone else's well-being. I love that you're pulling out this really important piece of getting to know yourself. And I think a lot of parents are myself included, start our parenthood journey. Not exactly sure around who we are.
Miriam: Motherhood for me has been a process of cracking me open and showing me all the, all the places where I thought I knew myself and I didn't. Oh, so beautiful. It's so wonderful. It's so alive. It's so real. It's really, you know, it's really an incredible thing like when we see who we are, then we could show up as our best self of being a good parent, even if our child there doesn't change their behavior, meaning who I am as a self and A can still be my goal of who I want to be as a parent.
I still as a patient, I still, you know, was able to regulate my emotions even though the child didn't comply with whatever the effort was that I was trying to help them comply with you though, you know, they to not hit their siblings, they still hit their sibling. But I was able to my goals of how I wanted to show up as a parent. So when we have that self and we have the other, we actually have more flexibility for being able to be like, Okay, like instead of like I'm such a terrible parent, give up on this being like, oh I, I accomplished in this and this and this. Okay now I have still a sense of dignity, a sense of pride, a sense of whatever because I did I was able to or if I wasn't able to, but I still, I'm still a self that I know who I am and who I want to be. Okay soo now how can, how can I think creatively to be able to then better support my child or I did support my child as best as I can.
But let me think of other possible solutions to set them up for success so they can practice the skill of being kind to their sibling or practice the skill of responsible with bringing your homework home or that, you know, that that type of thing. So when I'm talking about like the theory of perspective taking where it is the self and there is and there is the other, it always starts itself. But when let's say we're trying to help our child know about perspective taking what we do is we see them as the self. So let's say they become A and let's say their brother or their sister, sibling is B so what we do is we follow up to the same format. So I have a, you know, a structure that I teach and I see, I think I feel, I choose.
Laura: I see, I think I feel I choose just because I know some of you listeners right now are listening on this at 1.5 speed. Okay I know you're doing. So I see.
Miriam: I've been there, I've been there. Yeah, I know speak, I speak at two times speed. So everyone has to slow it down at least slow down 2.5, you know. Yes.
Laura: Okay.
Miriam: Sorry about that.
Laura: No, you're fine. I didn't. I feel like that's something that people will want to jot down. I know lots of people like take notes while they're listening to. So like that's my job is kind of to take what you're sharing and pull them out. So people can really.
Miriam: I actually do have like a spelled out training for that. I see. I think I feel I choose for parents if you want to email me, I'm happy to send, send it, send it over to you. I'll send, I'll send my email for people to send to me for sure.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Um, have like a sign up link for it.
Miriam: I do on my website skillsforconnection.com. But I find that like it's just so much easier when people email me miriam@skillsforconnection.com. Very, very consistent with the skills for connection. That is what it's all about. So yeah, either way I'm, I'm happy to, to share it with you. But I'll, I'll just briefly explain what the concept is, which is helping our kids see themselves. So like let's say we, we know for ourselves and I'm trying to see my child. I need to know who I am as a parent and then who my child is, who I A am and who B is. The way we teach our children how to see other people is we start with themselves and we start giving them that definition. So I, I have a book bubble double and it visualizes very, very clearly what that self looks like. It's a person in a bubble and then the other is another person in a bubble.
So like it's a three step goes through social skills and it divides into three concepts. But one is that you have to check the other, you have to see the other. Now, obviously prerequisite to that is what I'm describing as that. I see, I think, I feel I choose, which is you let your child be seen. I see you describe their body language and what, you know, what, what thought, what you might think about what they're experiencing and then you show them that actually allows them to be able to see like, oh, just because it looks like something doesn't mean you have to that, that thought necessarily the end of the milk of your cereal doesn't have to then be a tantrum.
It could be like, oh, this bottle is finished, but there's another bottle in the fridge perhaps, but it just sort of breaks it down into what they're experiencing and then what they could possibly be thinking about it, what they could possibly be feeling about it. And then at the end, which is my favorite part, which is the choice. What are you going to do with that information where we aren't victims to any situation? We always have choice and that empowerment and that giving over a responsibility. So we see our kids, we say, ok, here you are in yourself, here you are a, we see them, we reflect back, we give them that validation.
We're giving them that self awareness of how they're coming across, what we're, what the other person might be seeing in that, in who they are in their a bubble. And then if they've been seen enough, if they've been validated enough, very often they have the space emotionally to now see the other. Meaning, I see your fists are clenched, your brow is furrowed, your eyes are squinted, your teeth are, you know, are, uh, clenched. You're growling. Sometimes our kids growl. I think you did not want her to take your ice cream cone.
You're feeling so frustrated or you're feeling so hurt or you're feeling so um indignant, you know, I see you, you are seen and sometimes when our kids are in a heightened state of emotional emotions, you know, when they're angry or upset or whatever, sometimes they need us to really see them like because I, I have my kids, I could say to them like six times, seven times in a row like you're so I do look so frustrated. You did not want her to take that. You did not want him to do that. You really wanted me to let you X Y Z, you know, you really and I'll say it again and again, like I sound like a broken record but as I say it, I see that my kid will slowly slowly make eye contact with me, reconnect with me, which is what I would want them to be able to use me as a source of regulation when I'm able to be in that place but be able to tune in and then as they see themselves as they have been seen, they haven't been, you know, why are you so angry? Give it back to her. What's the big deal? Get your share?
You know? Right now they have a place in their heart to be like, oh, I really am frustrated. Oh, my mom gets it. She sees that I'm frustrated. She's letting me be who I am. I'm in this space and then you can then say like, how do you think she's feeling? What do you, what do you see? Oh, what are you singing with, with your sibling? What do you think about what your sibling is singing? What do you think they're thinking? What do you think they're feeling? And that's where you get the self and the other and that's how you teach it. So it first, as you had said, you know, are you had said, like you first have to be able to know who you as a parent are and where your child is. Like, I would be like, oh my gosh, like my kid is hitting their sibling. I'm a terrible parent. I'm going to shame and guilt and whatever. And now I'm going to quickly go on my phone so I not ignore it or I'm gonna stand up and slap my kid or pull him away from their kid or grab the, the, the ice cream cone back and say here, you know, don't, don't you dare take that from your brother, you know, type of thing. Okay so once I know who I am and myself, now I can then engage with the other and see like, Okay.
Laura: So I just want to like, there's this piece of it that I think is really important and this is not just for kids, this is for everybody that most of us unless we have done a lot of work and have had a lot of practice. Most of us get so wrapped up in our own experience that we need that experience validated in order to have room for the other perspective. And a lot of the couples I work with, they've spent so much time feeling invalidated by their partner, feeling unseen and unheard by their partner that they can't tap into any level of compassion for the other one because their, their own pain is, is so overwhelming that it blinds them.
And a lot of the work of a couple therapist is helping the couple see and hear and witness each other sometimes for the very first time. And when you do that, it creates room and space for four the other to be seen and heard. When you have been seen and heard and validated and your emotions have been taken care of, then you have room to see the others. And I have seen that dynamic play out in my own kids' lives in my own family so much with, especially with little kids where their, their big feelings are so big. They're so young. Well, they're so little, their nervous systems are so underdeveloped that even the smallest thing is a big thing for them and it completely prevents them from being able to see the other person's side.
You know? I think that really like understanding that, that this is not about, I think, you know, a lot of parents worry that if I don't intervene right away and set the limit right away, that the opportunity for lesson learning will be lost, right? But they can, it's a futile lesson. It's like attempting to, to make a child see the other one's perspective before that own child's valid. Like perspective hasn't, has been validated. It's a losing game because they can't do it there. Most of them, most of the time they're incapable of seeing the other person's perspective without first having their own validating it. So I think that's, I think that's just so important to, to hold out. Thank you for teaching that our parents because it's really valuable and it's.
Miriam: And the truth is like, it's so it's nice even for our parents because it gives us the possibility and the opportunity to be able to see our kids see their perspective also, meaning not only are we allowing them to see their own perspective, it allows us to focus in on it like, oh, like it wasn't just that they stole their siblings ice cream cone, but they also have their own process in it and it allows us to see their process aside from them feeling safe and that they're seeing that they can now see their siblings process. It's helpful for us to take that time and take that pause to be, to see them for the child's sake and for our sake as parents like, oh, like now I feel like my child isn't just trying to get, you know, be villainous. We're not trying to.
Laura: We're not bad.
Miriam: Right. Exactly. Like this is just a child who thought that their sibling took the last bit of ice cream and now there isn't gonna be enough for them or this, you know, this is a child who's feeling like afraid or this is a child who is feeling like you know, injustice like, but he just kicked me, how come he's allowed to have ice cream or whatever it is that's going through your child's mind, you know, or even just like jealousy, like how come my child, my sibling exists and is, you know, a conflict for me that I now don't have as much time attention, love, et cetera resources going towards me or whatever the resentment is, whatever the feeling is when we are teaching our kids the skill of perspective taking, we always, it always is starting with us how we feel about ourselves as A and then how we feel about our B oh seeing our child.
So when we're doing for our own perspective, taking who am I as this as the, you know, as a parent? And then B would be who is the child? And then really, it would be like technically C like, okay child, you've been seen as b now who do you want to see as your c and again and again, I see it and it, it really blows me away is how much kindness and empathy our kids really do have when they have been in a place where they're seen and validated and you know, loved. And I obviously, it's not that we don't love them, but they feel the love, they could feel the love when like mom is taking the time to hear them and to see them and to care about them.
Laura: Absolutely. And you know, the other piece of this that I feel like can't go unsaid is that, you know, we're humans too, we parents, we're having our own experience. And so part of that self awareness that you're talking about awareness of your own experience includes offering yourself validation, acknowledgement of your feelings, you know, understanding kind of the having an internal process of you're really frustrated with your child right now. That makes sense.
You don't want to see your other kid hurt or crying, you know, just giving yourself the same kind of compassion and love and validation that you're about to offer your kids instead of like white knuckling through that, trying to just like stuff it down and pretend that you're feeling, you know, regulated, really doing the things that regulate yourself first can be a beautiful thing to do. And especially so, you know, I know lots of the listeners have kids who, who don't like their parents talking about their feelings. And it's, I mean, it is like a wild thing that when you are a parent who is desperately trying to create emotional intelligence in your family to then have kids who are like, don't talk about feelings, don't say that, you know, it happens more than you would think.
Miriam: You know, I see that all the time also.
Laura: Yeah. And so I think one of the things that for, for those families who have got those kids narrating your own internal process of this kind of what you, what, what was it? I, I see, I think, I think I feel I choose or whatever it was. Yes. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. Doing that out loud for yourself might be a really, like just easy way and to, for the, for the kids who can't take it, you know, some kids can't, their nervous systems for whatever reason I have my own theory is right. You know, I think about like when um if you've been really struggling and you finally see a good friend or your therapist and you, you unload to them and then you've been validated maybe for the first time in a long time.
You know, they really hold you, they really see you how that, like relief and that flood of emotions. Maybe if you've been holding it together and then they, they meet you with empathy and it just floods and there's this big wave, I think that can happen for kids. And I feel like that my theory is that, that's when I, we see the like, don't say that because they know that wave is coming. Once they get that empathy, you know, we have to kind of wait a little bit for the wave.
Miriam: Or, or they're waiting for the I choose. They're like, wait, what are you gonna make me do? Now? Are you gonna try and manipulate me now that you, now that you're telling me I'm seen, are you gonna now try and make me do something or try and they're scared of it? So like that's why I don't usually teach that I choose until we've gotten. I see, I think I feel down very much where the child doesn't feel like, oh, there's an agenda here and, and I actually have had parents tell me that when they use it without the, I choose their kids who have previously have been, you know, like a wary and non trusting of the feeling expression. Like, don't, you know, of course I'm upset. Why are you saying I'm upset? They they're able to sort of like, let it in a little bit more because it's like there's no agenda there. It's like, I'm just seeing you, I'm just seeing you. I'm not telling you to do anything.
Laura: They're like, really good at sensing our agendas, aren't they? Like, I mean, this is why none of this can be a means to an end, right? So, so much of what's out there on like Instagram all the little like, you know, memes with the say this or try this and these little tips, they all view these things as a means to an end. Basically to get your kids to be in conflict less to have more like, you know, obedience, what whatever it is, you know, less trantrums, less meltdowns all of those things. And that's not what, what, what this is, that's not what works, what works is.
Miriam: I think that I think there's space for those things in that like we really do want to help our kids succeed in specific skills. But this specific skill, the skill of perspective taking is a prerequisite skill to those things where in order to be able to have a negotiation with somebody, in order to be able to have a conversation in order to be able to um have uh any type of rec reconciliation or even problem solving. As I know that you do a lot of things like that, those the skill of being able to see who where your starting point is, is essential.
So like yes, there is an agenda in that down the road. We're trying to give them further skills. But the starting point is you are and he is, you are, you exist, you're legit, you're, you know, you you can be in your space. He is and he can be in his space and then I choose the last step of what do you want to make of this piece? What do you want to do with this? Okay so like I see my child has just, you know, banged his siblings head against the wall and I'm thinking like, what a terrible kid, how could he be so cruel? And I'm feeling like disgust maybe and I choose, take a deep breath and I'm choosing to find a different thought about my kid because this is not working for me. It's not working for me to see my kid as that. So who am I and myself going to be? So I choose is where I want to move with it. But the first three is like, how you started talking about like that honesty of like where am I in myself? Where I we we aren't finished products when we, you know, we give birth.
It's, it's we're giving birth to ourselves as parents at the same moment when we give birth and who am I in this moment? And then the choice comes afterwards. But if we can't be honest with the first three that, who, what is that? We're seeing what it is that we're thinking, what is that we're feeling? We can't get to that last step. So I don't see it as like a divorce as like, oh that last piece, but I see it as like the first, the, the being that can then make choices from them. So I hear what you're saying. It's like, it's not like a gimmick. It's a, it's a leg, it's legitimizing the self.
Laura: Yeah. Wait, what, what it meant was that we aren't validating their emotions to get them to have less tantrums. You know, we aren't validating their emotions to get them to not be like to get them to do anything you're literally experiencing, being with them, being emotionally present with kids because that's what's good for them and that's what they need, not, not to get them to change or be, you know, be easier for us to deal with it just like, you know, there's a, a recommendation to spend, you know, 10 minutes in special time with your kids and you and connect with your kids and it's really important.
Those things are wonderful, they build a relationship, they're fun. They, you know, they can really help but you're not doing that to get your kid to have less tantrums at target. You know, you're not, you're not doing that as a means to an end. That's kind of what I mean by that you're not, not doing it to get other things, you're doing it because they need the relationship because the relationship is everything for the child.
The connection is everything for the child. And in order to feel connected, they need to feel seen and heard and accepted exactly as they are. And a lovely by product of that connection is more flexibility is less tension, is more collaboration and cooperation. But you can't do like you can't be like, okay, I put in my 10 minutes, when am I getting the cooperation? You know? Okay, I, you know, I validated you. When are you going to be nice to your brother? You know, like that, that doesn't work. You know what I mean?
Miriam: Whenever there's an agenda, like as you said, like they can, they can feel it, they can feel it very, very, very clearly. I know like when I'm thinking for myself like, okay, like, you know, I felt like I'm, I'm in a rush and it's like, okay, it's worth it for me. You know, obviously I care about connection. Like as I, this is what I do, I'm passionate about it. My whole company is called Skills For Connection.
That's what I'm about that being said, sometimes I'm rushing, I'm trying to get, you know, dinner on the table, you know, making sure that all the kids' clothing is ready for tomorrow for all these different things. It's helpful for me to remember in that moment when I'm try, when I, when I do need to take a stop, take a break, check in with my child who is in the middle of, you know, falling apart because he had hasn't yet eaten dinner. That's what I'm trying to prepare and being able to connect with him. And it is helpful for me to recognize all the benefits because sometimes that connection becomes like secondary to all the things that I practically have to take care of. So it's helpful for me to keep it as a practical thing in my mind. Not because that's really at the core of me, of who I am and, and who I want to be in a relationship with my child. But it's help for me like practically as a logistic to be like, oh, it is actually gonna help me with the rest of the things that I want to accomplish. Practically. Not that it's at my core, but it is practical also. You know what I mean?
Laura: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that there can be a, you know, there can be a question of so when like when is this actually going to work? When am I going to see results, you know, from this and the payoff for, for some kids and some families will be down the road? You know that?
Miriam: That's very true. That's very, very true.
Laura: One thing I just want to mention for, for folks who are listening to um is that the, you know, we have to be really clear on what's developmentally appropriate to expect our kids to be able to do, so the ability to do perspective, taking on your own, the cognitive skill of doing it without support from the other, without direction, without kind of, you know, help seeing another person's perspective, that cognitive skill doesn't fully come online. But until the kids are seven and 88789 around in there, you know, it's a bell curve like when that kind of comes online where they're consistently able without prompting and without kind of direct kind of support to see that to see someone else's perspective.
So it's really important for us to remember that a three year old naturally is very self focused, not because they're selfish, but just because that's their whole experience and their whole world, they've newly become aware that they have a self to begin with at all. Right? So they've newly developed theory of mind, this idea that they are their own entity and we are separate from them and they're very self focused.
And so it's just, it's so important to remember that with our help and support, they absolutely can see another's perspective and tap into that empathy and compassion and kindness and generosity that young children are so good at. But they, they will need support doing that consistently. We can't expect them to just out of the blue, all the time, especially when they're in a state of stress. Be able to think about someone else's perspective. Honestly, perspective taking is hard for most adults to do.
Miriam: Yes. Yes. I have like a, you know, high school students. I forgot high school students. I have married folk that I do this way, you know, like who, you know, to work on the table. Well, who am I in this process? And as you said, like in couples counseling, like that process would be, oh, I am, I have my own experience of what happened. Oh, he came home late from work or, you know, she didn't, she didn't you know, call my mom the way I, you know, wanted her to or whatever it is, all the, whatever the pieces are like, okay, so who are you in this and who, you know, and who's the other in this? But, and, and our kids especially like, as you, as you said, like that they're starting for the first time to identify that they have a self that they have an a that they have feelings and what this, these pieces are like very often.
I know, you know, with my young kids, like, I'll, I'll do I'll, I'll do the A and the b like, I'll do the A part where I'm sort of like asking and then you felt because I'm still working the self awareness piece and then I'll fill in and, and he felt like, and sometimes they'll fill in, they'll surprise me and they'll be able to do it. But you, you're right. It's very much like, developmentally appropriate and healthy for them to knowing who they, who they are as a self and, and, and as we said, like, the more that they are seen, the more space they have, the more safety they have that they can then, like, sort of out of curiosity, like, oh, what's going on over there? Someone else exists in this space as well.
Laura: Yeah, absolutely. One thing Miriam too, that I just want to mention that like, I love the way that you're talking about this is that it seems like this is very in the moment, experiential learning with your kids that so I, I find my, you know, I love children's books and I read so many of them and I think lots of families misunderstand the role of children's books and teaching children about their feelings. Oftentimes those books are for us as parents and not really for the kids. Right. We're, we're reading them and really we're just getting a lesson for ourselves and we have to really take it that way that our kids are not gonna retain any of that information that they're learning is gonna happen in the moment with us alongside them, doing the work. You know what I mean?
Miriam: Right. Like I find that well, I find the role that our books will take is like they might, they may or may not be able to understand like they'll understand like the storyline and then it's up to us as parents to be able to be like, oh, remember how, you know, Lucy, oh, you're doing it just like Lucy, you know, like my, I, I have the, again, this, this bubble double book, the one that I wrote and um one of my kids is jumping on the baby and I was like, oh she needs space and, and then one of the older kids, one of the older still little kids said something like, oh it's her bubble. And I was like, oh yeah, okay. That was connecting the dots. But sometimes like I'll need to explicitly say like, okay, like that, that you're going into my bubble like or you know, how, how do, how can we invite her into our space or type of thing?
Just like the, you know, whatever the tools are within the book, be able to talk it out in real time. And that's really like I find, you know, as we started off with talking about like how parents are the best people to do this because the parents are the ones who are reading the books with them. But more than that the parents are the ones who are with them all day long when their sibling is begging down the bathroom door and wants a turn to come in and it's like, oh, from your perspective, you're trying to use the bathroom and you aren't quiet. But what's happening in her perspective, what's happening in her bubble? Can you check what's going on? What do you think's going on over there? You know, or like, you know, grandma just walked in, in your, in your bubble. You're thinking about that. You really like doing this puzzle and what's happening, what's happening from grandma's perspective. She just drove all the way here to see you. You know, what do you think that would, what do you think she would be?
What do you think would be nice for her, you know, type of thing and then teaching anything that we want to teach within that framework where we're using the skills that they're learning in a very non threatening way because that's what books do is that introduce ideas to us and very fun, casual, you know, no, not, no criticism there, you know, it's not critical and then be able to make that transition of bringing that fun energy, bringing that exciting curiosity of that same joyful, you know, cadence that we got from the book and bring that to life where like, oh don't jump on the baby is like, oh careful of her bubble or, you know, just like the rhyming fun energy that was in the book.
You can now bring that to their experience. It doesn't have to be heavy or critical or, you know, all those pieces that, that's, I, I find like, you know, that it isn't something that they're going to automatically be able to translate. Sometimes they will and surprise us and wonderful. But that's such a beneficial thing that parents who are reading the books with their kids get to learn the concepts themselves to be able to identify goals of, oh, this is what I want my child to be able to develop socially and then how could I actually implement in real life?
Laura: Yeah, I love that. I think having that shared language is really great too. Having just the same vocabulary that you're, you know, and having your kids have a context for using it in is so good. I of course, you know, as a, a person who does a lot of work with problem solving in the kind of the raw screen, collaborative and proactive solutions approach, I do want to just put a plug in for those who are listening on being proactive on some of these things. So a lot of the examples we've been talking about today are in the moment examples which can work really well for younger kids.
But some of our more explosive or challenging kids can't access these skills in the moment. They can't learn them in the moment. Either they, their skills are so kind of behind or lagging as the terminology that Ross Green uses that attempting to do it in the moment would really outstrip their skills. And so making sure that if you've got one of those kiddos that you're being as proactive as possible, you can still use, you know, great, you know, the Ross green process, the pro the perspective taking is built in the um I don't know if you know Miriam about his process, but the first step is really getting a detailed picture of the child's perspective. And the second step is sharing the adult's perspective.
And then the third step is working together so that both people's perspectives can be valued as you create a solution so very much in, in alignment with what we've been talking about today. It's just taking it out of the heat of the moment. So that for especially for some kids who really need it, they can have it practice those skills and learn those skills when their bodies are regulated and they have more access to executive functioning and all of those things. So I just wanted to add, add that because I have, I have one kid who can do the in the moment, problem solving in the, in the moment, all of this stuff. And I have one kid who cannot and it's ok, they're, they're different, they have different brains, different nervous systems and different needs, you know.
Miriam: So and then the, the after the fact teaching I find is so powerful because it allows for them because they've experienced it already. They know exactly what it is that they're referring to when you put the label of like, you know, the frustration or the emotional identification and then giving them the that could have been helpful for them. They've experienced it, they know what you're talking about.
You know, that's the reason why motion cards are not really so effective but labeling an emotion either in the moment or after the fact when they, they have experienced it, they know what you're talking about. You have the shared language, you have the shared experience that is so effective. So especially with our kids that are struggling with having a regulatory regulation, including ourselves, all of us in some level, being able to identify even after the fact is extremely powerful. Yeah.
Laura: Yeah. Oh Miriam, I really loved this conversation. Thank you so much for sharing with us and thank you for your flexibility listeners. You don't know this, but it was voting day today on the day that we record this, recorded this and my polling place was, oh, the way I waited in line for two hours. And so Miriam was so gracious and kind in delaying our appointment so that I could vote and still have this conversation. So Miriam, so I appreciate your, your just your graciousness and compassion so much on just a personal note and I really appreciate what you're putting out into the world too.
Miriam: Thank you. Thank you so great to be able to talk with you. Thank you.
Laura: Yeah absolutely. Will you just, you know, mention again where folks can find you and I'll make sure everything is in the show notes too.
Miriam: Okay. So anyone you know, I'm always available for email Miriam at skills for connection.com. If you want to check out my book on Amazon bubble double. And I have again, I can, I'm happy to share that free training. I also have a whatsapp group. I just send out stuff. So any of that sounds like it could be supportive. I'd love to be able to support you in that.
Laura: Okay. Sounds good. Thank you so much. Thank you.
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