Episode 72: Divorce from a Child's Perspective with Kimberly Ewertz (Divorce Series No. 2)

I know that for most couples, as they are navigating a divorce and separation, one of their biggest worries is the effect it will have on their children. Most modern research on divorce is showing that the negative effects on children can usually be attributed to the negative conflict in the years leading up to the divorce, rather than the divorce itself, and can actually be minimal when the couple divorces and then co-parents in a "healthy" way (see last week's episode for how!).

However, we actually have very few accounts from the child's perspective on the effects of divorce and how to make it easier on kids. As parents committed to honoring children's emotions & experience, doesn't it just make sense then that we would seek to understand divorce from a child's perspective? So when an author reached out to me with a book filled with first-hand accounts of adults who reflect on their parent's divorce & guidance to parents navigating these waters, I knew I had to share them with you!

And so for the second episode of the Divorce Series, we are going to focus on the child's experience. And to have this conversation, I'm bringing in a colleague, expert, and a former analyst, Kimberly Ewertz. After experiencing divorce, she witnessed the devastating effect it had on her child. She got support and with the help of a therapist realized that some of what she had been doing in an attempt to protect her son was actually making things worse. She very bravely details these mistakes and how she went about repairing with her son, and her insights and suggestions actually apply to ALL parent-child relationships!

Here is a summary of our conversation:

• What children experience during and after a divorce

• How do we help children get through parents' separation

• How to have healthy emotional boundaries with your children

• How to know when kids need support

To learn more about a child's perspective on divorce, get Kim's book Family Redefined: Childhood Reflections on the Impact of Divorce. It's available on Amazon.com and her website www.familyredefinedbook.com. Her book has been nominated for several prestigious awards and won first place in the Midwest Book Awards for the non-fiction Family/Parenting category. And to be updated on Kim's work, follow her on Facebook @FamilyRedefinedBook.

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody. This is Dr. Laura Froyen with another episode in The Balanced Parent Podcast and we were continuing with our series on divorce, co-parenting, separation, and all things family-separation related. And in this episode, we're going to be focusing on the child's experience. And so to have this conversation, I'm bringing in a colleague and expert, a former journalist who after her own divorce and witnessing the effect it had on her child and realizing the limited availability of children's reflections and perspectives on divorce, she knew that there was a story to tell here. And so I'm bringing in Kim Ewertz and she's going to help us understand more about what kids go through in the midst of divorce and settling into new co-parenting relationships and arrangements and answer some of our questions.

So, Kim welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you do and your book?

Kim: Well, thank you first of all, Laura for inviting me to your show and having this platform to inform and get the word out that this book is available because I believe it can help every divorce parent as well as be the perfect resource for them to help their children.

I'm a divorced mom. My son Tony was 10 and I knew I was getting us out of very bad environment, emotionally physically abusive environment. So going in, I was so naive to know that this was only going to be positive. How could this have any negative repercussions if I'm taking us out of a bad environment. But unfortunately it did and I witnessed that for the first year after the divorce when he pulled away from me and stopped saying I love you. It was heartbreaking. So years have passed and I've always wanted to get something out there to help divorced parents and their children in a way that I needed and couldn't find because there's plenty of information out there from the experts, you know, which is wonderful and beneficial. But what is the child feeling? What is the child experiencing and how do we help them get through that? The best way I felt to do that was to use my journalistic abilities and tell other people's stories.

So I gave voice to nine adult children of divorce and each chapter in the book is chapter each of their story from the time they first found out about the divorce all the way up into present day. When I interviewed them, I reflected on what that time was like and how the impact of their parents' decision to divorce has carried through in their lives and affected them. The 10th chapter I felt important because it offers how to do it right. It's a mother who had a 10 month old when her husband came home and said marriage is over. I went out. So now her child is 10 years old and she reflects back on those 10 years and the difference that she's seen in her child compared to since she's been remarried she's had two other children And they're both girls. So she can really see that there is a difference and she knows that that was partly mostly due to the divorce. And even though she was only 10 months old, it's had and continues to have an impact on her.

So I just want to get this out there and I felt it important to interview professionals in the field of marriage and family counseling so that all throughout the chapters we can provide those parents that are reading the book really helpful advice and information that they might not have the ability or the resources to go get counseling themselves. And there's even at the back of the book, A Q and A. And it's a Q and A. With the experts. So it's additional questions that are very common among divorced parents that I felt was important to include as well. 

Laura: I think that's so important. It's great to have tips and tricks and ideas for us to do as parents when we're in these situations. But I also think, you know, one of my biggest reasons we're doing what I do is I see myself as a child advocate. And so I really love that you are bringing awareness to the perspectives of kind of the child's experience. I think that that's really wonderful and so important and missing in so much of what we do, even in the hair now when kids are little, we often neglect to think about what their experiences are, what their ideas are and ask them, get curious with them. So what are some of the things that you learned about a child's experience of divorce? Was there anything that surprised you or that stood out to you?

Kim: Oh yeah, over and over again. But the one that always pops to mind was my very first interview. So that was over five years ago when I started this whole project. She was in her mid-50s, her name's Lisa in the book and all the names are fictional to keep everyone anonymous for their sake. She was six years old when her parents announced her they're going to separate. So she spent the majority of her time with her mother and all parents. Do we put on a brave front, we want to show that our children that were strong and that we're going to get through this. So, Lisa's mom did exactly that. And in the interview, she said if my mom had just kind of let down her guard and been honest with me about what her fears were and what she was really experiencing at the same time reassuring her that they would get through this. She said that would have just given her such a feeling of camaraderie that oh, it's okay to be scared right now, because mom feels scared too. 

So by opening ourselves up and being honest with our children, even in a worst case scenario, like a divorce, you're only gonna bring your child closer to you and we all want them to be honest with us. So why shouldn't we be honest with them? I thought that was eye opening. And I'm like, oh, I wish I had known that. 

Laura: I think that that's something for all parents to know that kids are born aware. They know and they are very interested in our emotional experience, our well being. Because they rely on us, right? And so they need to know that we're okay. And they can tell when we're faking it. They can tell when that wall is up, when our guard is up, when we're kind of holding it together and not being authentic and real they can tell. Then there's this tricky balance of being honest, being real and then but not leaning on them, you know, having good healthy boundaries, reassuring them that, yes, this is a hard time. And these are the places where I'm going to get support from adults because adults go to adults and kids go to adults, you know, right. But yeah.

Kim: Some of the therapists have said exactly that large. They said, you know, reassure your child as you're being honest with them of what you're experiencing, that mom or dad has resources. We have friends. I have family members, I have, you know, classes that I'm taking and I'm seeing somebody who's helping me through this journey so that I can be my best me and I can help you. And together we're going to get through this because you know, to forget to reassure them, then the child becomes a bit parentified meaning they take on the role of the parent and they think, well I have to take care of mom or I have to take care of dad and that happens all too often with, you know, a lot of cases of divorce, one of the parents just shuts down as being a parental role model and the child because they live in kind of like a self absorbed world. You know, it's all about them. They feel like there is no one else other than them to take on that responsibility and that's too daunting for any child. You know, even if they're a teenager, it's not fair. Please keep that in mind when, you know, you're going through this.

Laura: And this is true for going through any hard times. Like even now in the midst we're recording this kind of at the, you know, we're a month out from the year mark of the pandemic. You know, I mean, it's hard time for parents, just even the average parent has to be remembered to be real, authentic, honest and also have good emotional boundaries where they're relying on their support systems as opposed to relying on their kids. These are important takeaways. 

You mentioned something that made me kind of curious if this ever came up in your book. And if you have any ideas for parents, like how do you know, when your kid needs support? So oftentimes as parents are moving through this, they're getting support either from a therapist. There's even divorced therapists that specialize in separating well, but how do you know when your kids need support? 

Kim: Well, all the experts I talked to said that even from, you know, zero to two, you know, the child is going to feel the stress or the frustration that, you know, the environment of the home, even if they can't comprehend it, you know, intellectually that they're taking that in. And so you have to be all the more present with your child and give them the additional attention they need so that they have that feeling of connection. Connection is huge. And so a child that feels they're not receiving that may sometimes, you know, little older, like toddlers on up, they may start displaying anger because anger is one of the very first responses to finding out that their parents are no longer going to stay together and they'll do it through play. They'll do it through maybe crashing cars are, you know, having dolls fight. 

So if you can see that, you know, the play that your children are doing is a bit different. You know, and you're seeing some hostility come out. Or even in their words, you know, if they're being hostile to you, then you know, that they're just trying to reach you in some way and they're so young that they don't have that skill set yet to say, please help me. So they're doing it through, you know, actions and mostly actions if they're younger and the older kids, you know, you have to just be on again the word honesty, but you have to be honest with them and say, I know this is a hard time and I'm sorry we're all going through this, but I want you to talk to me, you know.

And then you do what they call active listening. I believe that I have that correct. One of the therapists says, you know, you're not leading the conversation. You're letting the child take you where they want to go. You know, talk about what they want to talk about. And you allow them to have their feelings. You know, if they're negative or even if they're angry at you, my son got so angry at me. He was 10. So all of his anger was coming out and I didn't, sorry, Hey, we're all real parents here. Even though it's been a long time ago. It's, you know, remembering those days when he was so angry with me, he stopped saying, I love you mom. You know, that was our good night. I love you Tony. I love you too. Mom See you in the morning and that was gone for over nine months. 

I at the time was going to therapy because I sent my son to therapy first thinking I can't help you. I'm kind of an emotional mess. So get you the help you need through outside resources. And he was just one as another important. I'm sorry. I'm rambling on.

Laura: You're doing great. This is, I'm like learning and this is so good.

Kim: But that's an another important aspect about therapy is children don't always respond to it. They might not be ready to confront what they're going through or they just don't get it. And maybe they were never that verbal with their feelings and emotions at home. So to take them to the, you know, atmosphere where they're sitting in a group where they're sitting one on one and say, okay, time to talk, tell this person you've never met before, this complete stranger what your inner thoughts and feelings are. They'll be like, no, no, that's not gonna happen. And my son would hide under the table at the therapy room, you know, the group therapy room and wait till my shoes at the door and then he would come out. 

So he was not receptive. So that therapist suggested that I get therapy and it was the best thing I could have done because by getting help for me, I was able to be stronger and more healthy for him. And then we eventually got through that journey together and we came out on the other end of it all the stronger. Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. I know I rambled on. I'm sorry. 

Laura: I know it was so good. I think you hit on something that a big takeaway from what I'm hearing you say, and from these stories is that the conscious and respectful parenting that all of my listeners are working towards right now, that those are foundational skills that help carry you through hard times as a family, Whatever your family structure looks like being able to listen and hold space for your kids feelings, being able to accept them, acknowledging that when our kids are struggling and where we're struggling with our kids often it's us we have to look at instead of them that feeling our own cup, taking care of ourselves for so that we can hold space for our kids. You're hitting on all of the high points of what I want people to take away from all of my podcast episodes. 

Kim: So that's why your program is so beneficial to parents everywhere. Even though my son is all grown up now. It's like I've learned from your podcast.

Laura: Is it okay if I ask like, what does Tony think of your work, your son? What does?

Kim: Yeah, of course. Let me talk about my son.

Laura: I wish you all could see her facing now. She's all lit up just like we all do. Apparently that never goes away.

Kim: Ever. Never. He's 41 now. So he designed the cover of the book. 

Laura: Oh wow. Yeah, it's super supportive.

Kim: Super supportive. He has a chapter in the book. It's on you know, anonymous name. But at the end when I share my thoughts as I deal with each chapter, I let the reader know that this is a special chapter for me because it's my son's story. So he wanted to participate, he wanted it to be in there because he knew how important this was. So he has been super supporter as my husband has been as well, so I could not be prouder of either of them and I'm so grateful for their continued support.

Laura: That's beautiful. I think something that I'm picking up right now too is that the message that you don't have to know how to do this perfectly. You can have ups and downs, you can move through it with grace and self compassion and you can make adjustments along the way. And the outcome can be a wonderful close and loving relationship with your child.

Kim: Exactly, yes, exactly. We stumbled through it many times you were able to reconnect and the older he got, the more honest I could be. But I tried always to do what the experts explain is one of the worst things you can do. So I try to always refrain from putting down his father. Even though there were lots of reasons to do that. That's something else. You vent to your friends, your family members to your therapist. You don't have to carry that anger and frustration inside. And once I had that release through the therapy, you know, I could get all those feelings out and not burden my son with them because it's unfair to taint his relationship with his father because all the experts say it's the child that needs to make the decision about how they feel about their parent. 

The other parent can't persuade them one way or the other. They have to be neutral territory because you're just hurting your child. If you're trying to, you know, downgrade the other parent, it makes them feel like they're being disloyal to both parents. You just do not want to do that to your child. They don't deserve that.

Laura:  No, they don't. And I think that boundary is so important, having really healthy boundaries around that, around what is your relationship with your former partner and what is your child's relationship with your former partner and not doing anything that gets in the way of that Even when it's hard. And I, for many families, it's very, very difficult. Especially if, you know, there's some very big reasons why. Yeah, very high conflict. Yeah. It's really hard but really important. And I think you are so right to highlight why it's so important for you to have for the parents to have their support systems with adults where they can have that outlet so that they can be more balanced and well regulated. I mean really what that's what it is. It's self regulation, Be well regulated and emotionally balanced with their kids for the benefit of the child, not for the benefit of the ex partner, but for the child.

Kim One of the experts use the example of on a plane, you know with the oxygen mask, you put it on yourself first before you do it for your child. Because if you're not taking care of yourself, you can't take care of them. So it's the same philosophy,  is the same school of thought. You know, we have to take care of us so that we can be our strongest and give them our strength when they need it and just let them that even if what they want to say is negative, whatever their, you know, situation they’re being negative about, they're going through this difficult time. So let them have that that space to just be honest and tell you, you know, I'm mad at you for leaving dad or I'm mad at dad for not being with us, whatever it is. Just allow them to talk.

Laura: Allow, allow, allow. Yeah.

Kim: Never shut them down.

Laura: Try not to take it personally too, it’s just hard, so hard. But that,  allow, always feels so spacious to me like that. There's when we're allowing people to have their own experiences and perspectives. Even small children, there's just more room, there's more room for me, there's more room for the child and there is just you know, it just feels less, I don't know. Their experience can be out here when we're allowing it can be out in front of us. We can see it as opposed to taking it in and like taking it on as our own. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. 

Kim: That's a very good example. You know that if you know, you're witnessing what they're going.

Laura: Yeah, witnessing it, not necessarily agreeing with it or saying yes you're right but saying yeah, you're acknowledging feel that way. Yeah.

Kim: Acknowledge their feelings. That's as important as agreeing with them. I think like you said, you don't have to agree with them with everything, but you acknowledge that they have every right to that feeling. I think that's key. 

Laura: I think so too. I know that we're talking about in situations of divorce, but really like this just applies to everyday parents and every relationship to this is the basis of healthy resilient relationships, you know? Beautiful.

Kim: Takes so much away from it.

Laura:  Absolutely. Because that's what the parent-child relationship is at the end of the day, right? It's just a human relationship and the basics are pretty universal. Kimberly, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom on this. Um why don't we make sure that everybody knows the full name of your book and where to find it? Of course, will have links in the show notes, but sometimes people like to hear it out loud. 

Kim: Oh sure. The title of the book is Family Redefine: Childhood reflections on the impact of divorce. And of course it's available on Amazon, but it's also available with my publisher, Little Creek Press. Oh, and if I might boast a bit. My book is a finalist in the Independent Book Awards for the category of family and parenting. I congratulate and feel honored. Just you know, I know it's cheesy to say, I feel honored to be nominated, but it's the truth. I'm like, there's truth to that.

Laura:  That's wonderful.

Kim: That competition is judged by librarians and educators and that just like brought it a lump to my throat. And I'm like, those people see the value to this book. So I did good. 

Laura: You did. You did. I think that everybody listening has for sure taken away something that they will apply to their family that they can use right now today. And I hope that everybody who is listening will go and pick up this book because I think it's not just parents who are moving through a divorce or separation that could benefit from some of the takeaways here. There is not enough of children's perspectives out there for us to learn from. There's just isn't and I'm so thankful that you wrote a book from this perspective and that you shared it here with us. 

Kim: Thank you so much Laura. I can't thank you enough. You're a beacon of light to parents everywhere. 

Laura: The feeling is for letting me be on your show, so happy to have you. Thank you.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um, and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

Episode 71: Conscious Co-Parenting with Ashley Wood (Divorce Series No. 1)

One of the things that we focus on a lot here at The Balanced Parent is conscious communication. Often that comes up in the context of couples, but the skills I teach are just as important for families that are in the midst of separation or divorce or are looking for support in navigating co-parenting with a former partner.
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This stage is difficult. It brings in fear, depression, and anxiety towards what will happen to us in the future. If you are experiencing this right now, I want you to know that you aren't alone & there is help & support available. And so for two weeks, we will have a Divorce Series wherein you will get resources on how to navigate through this stage especially 1) how to consciously co-parent with a former spouse, and 2) how to understand our children's feelings and give them the support that they need.
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​Even if you aren't currently in the midst of these life changes and transitions, these episodes are filled with golden nuggets on setting healthy emotional boundaries with ourselves and others. I highly recommend you give them a listen, there is something there for everyone!​
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And so for the first episode in this series, I’m bringing in one of my favorite Instagram and TikTok accounts, Ashley Wood of @theconsciouscoparent. She is a coach who specializes in working with mothers of young children who are overwhelmed and worried about the emotional and financial drain of divorce and feel hopeless about the idea of co-parenting. She also has a great podcast called Split: The After Ever After Podcast. She helps moms who have difficulty leaving relationships to overcome and navigate divorce. And in this episode, she will give us tips and advice on how to consciously co-parent with our former spouse.
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Here is an overview of what we talked about:

• How to preserve our dignity and relationship with our kids after a divorce

• How to co-parent with a former spouse

• What are the common misunderstandings in co-parenting

• How to communicate with a co-parent and getting on the same page

If you are in need of more support as you navigate through divorce, you can find more resources from Ashley here: linktr.ee/theconsciouscoparent. Her Instagram account is @theconsciouscoparent so do follow her as well.

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of the balanced parent podcast, we're going to talk about co-parenting with one of my favorite instagram and Tiktok accounts. This is Ashley of The Conscious Co-Parent. She's also got a great podcast called Split That After ever After podcast and she is so much fun. Her content is amazing and I'm so excited to have her here for this conversation. Ashley, welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? 

Ashley: Absolutely. Thank you for having me here and thank you for that lovely intro. I mean if that doesn't hype a person up, I will.

Laura: Your reels and your TikTok are so much fun, I'm so excited to be talking with you and have everybody know you who needs help with co-parenting. 

Ashley: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, so I do love TikTok, even just as a quick scroll through my page, we'll see that. So I actually work in the car business. I've been in the automotive industry for about 10 years, so that's my day job. But since I split with my ex almost two years ago and I'm now a co parenting toddler mom about part way through my divorce journey, I found coaching, so divorce coaching and became really passionate about that. I met a local mediator, we've become friends and we started this podcast and now in training to become a divorce coach myself because it's just something that I'm really, really passionate about and I think that as difficult processed separation and divorce, it could be so much easier and people can transition from like survival mode to truly thriving so much faster if they have the right support. So that's a little bit about me. 

Laura: I love that. You know, I think we need support at all big life transitions and divorce is a huge one. It's a huge identity shift. It's a huge shift for your kids and for your family and why not have support for that, you know? 

Ashley: Yes, absolutely. I think that in the early stages, much like any difficult transition, like you said, people are really stuck in there, like reptilian brain, you know, their fear, fight or flight response. And so they're not curious about possibilities. They're not necessarily reaching out to all our exploring all avenues that they could take to get the job done and instead they're just very impulsive just in that survival mode, ironically, that's the time when you need the most support so. 

Laura: Of course you do it and it makes sense to like, as this is all happening. There's so much feelings, there's so many, there's stigma and shame layered in there and there's fears about yourself and what it will mean, what it means about you, what it means for your family. There's all these thoughts that get flowing and you know, I didn't even know that divorce coaching was a thing. So I'm so glad to know that it is. That's awesome. 

Ashley: Yeah, I think it is a loss, right? Like it's grief. It totally is, you know, for your relationship, for your identity. Like you said for me, it was like the hopes and dreams of what, how I wanted my daughter to be raised and what her idea of family would mean. I grew up with my parents had divorced and that I never wanted that. I mean, nobody goes into a marriage and has kids thinking, okay, yeah, we're going to split in a few years and yeah, so, 

Laura: But statistically speaking, that's what happens a lot of the time too, you know. Yeah. And so then the question comes, how do we do it well, right? So how do we do it in a way that preserves our dignity, preserves our kids, relationships with ourselves and with their parent, preserves kind of the common humanity in a family? Do you have any ideas like how do you do that? How do you dissolve a marriage in a way that kind of builds a foundation for kind of a shared meaning around what this new way of being in a family is? 

Ashley: Yeah, I would not label this as necessarily an easy task, but it can be done with, you know, a few things. One having the support like you said, also, one thing that really helped me and now seeing as I'm working with others within this community is shifting from like the story of divorce and what has happened in the past to the decisions of divorce and focusing forward on how you want to look back at who you were during this time and who you want to be because a lot of people, you know, they're holding on to all of this resentment towards their partner, all of this sadness, all these negative emotions. And it's not to say to just shove those deep down and not address them. Like certainly you need to do that, but it's focusing forward every step of the way. How do I want my future to look? How do I want my kids to grow up through this because this is happening, the relationship is over. But what can I do today and moving forward to limit conflict and ensure that I can still live a happy life and my children can still live a happy life and also your former spouse too, Right?

Laura: Yeah, because of course we want good things for them too for the most part, most of the time. And I heard a piece and then that’s what you're saying too, that it seems like taking really good care of yourself, being very clear on what your work is to do and what's not the work of the children. What, where that work has to happen on your own with a therapist or with a coach, right? And having good boundaries around that process.

Ashley: Absolutely, Like I before this process, I really did not have a lot of boundaries in any of my relationships. So that was a big positive for me coming out of this and where that started to take place is when I realized how little control I had moving forward and I realized obviously when we were separating that when my former spouse had our daughter, he would be parenting his way, but I don't think I actually understood that until it started happening. And especially for people who are coming out of the relationship where there's very little trust, maybe there was an affair or even just poor behavior between spouses. It's very hard to then and trust that person with the other person you care the most about in the entire world because possible. Yeah. And I kept me, stuck in pure grief for quite a while. You know, I remember like there was about a week where I got really sick and I couldn't even get out of bed and I had always like, understood what real depression was, like, I thought I understood and I could empathize with people and they said like they were paralyzed with it, but like, that happened to me, it's really important to have support in place in that self care and have someone like a coach or a therapist to help you along the way. 

Laura: So how did you get past that point of just, I don't know if I can handle entrusting my kids to this other person when we're so different. I want to talk about differences in parenting styles, you know, more generally, but that is almost like a mindset kind of thing that probably has to get worked through. How did you do that work? 

Ashley: Yeah, it really is. And you know, I will say like, my daughter loves her dad and he loves her and I'm really happy that we're able to support each other so that, you know, we're both actively in her life, so I'm very happy about that. But like I said, there was little to no trust between us at the time we had horrible conflict. It was court ordered by a judge that we had to have someone help with those exchanges. So you know, without getting into the full backstory, just a pin, a picture of like things were pretty rough. But you know, realizing that legally if your child is like quote and quote, physically safe and not in harm or your former partner hasn't done anything to that you've been able to document as that the child is an unsafe environment, then that's it. 

You don't really have a lot of control there. So it's accepting that. But then getting to that acceptance piece was again, looking at how do I want our daughter to grow up and how is she when she's with her dad and taking myself out of the equation? Because when I separated, what had happened between us and I looked at how are they when they spend time together, she was happy to see him. She was happy when she came back. Obviously some transitionary things. You know, she's very little. So like that when she would come back home after a weekend, she might have a few tantrums just because it was a big change. But overall she was happy. It's really dividing what has happened between you and the other person. And looking at how they are as a parent and what the relationship is between them and your shared child.

Laura: Yeah. I love what you're saying. It's almost like, you know when we have all of this stuff between us and the other parent, it's like taking off a pair of sunglasses so you can see the situation clearly so we can see clearly what's happening between them and there's a bit of the releasing of control. I mean, I think parenthood is a constant lesson in the art of letting go of another opportunity to learn that lesson of releasing control, accepting what is and then finding where your power is. Where do I get to craft a story that's meaningful for me, right? That's what I want, what I choose.

Ashley: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's why again, going back to support is so key because a lot of people, even if they're not necessarily going into litigation, but they meet with a lawyer and have a consultation and find out what are my legal rights. What are their legal rights and if there's been some sticky situations in the past between you and your partner and you may have some concerns and you have a lawyer tell you while you know, this might be a 50/50 access situation regardless of how you may feel about that person and the lack of trust. That is really hard to absorb.

So having someone like you said, who can be your thinking partner and help you get curious and more open-minded about, okay, let's just see where this goes and giving it a chance and then again, not focusing on what's happened in the past. I just think that's really important.

Laura: I think so too. You know, I heard you say just a little bit ago too, about you talked really openly and candidly about how hard it has been for you. And I really appreciate that message because I think that sometimes we can get like rose-colored glasses kind of view on social media and stuff. And I really appreciate that about your content, that you give a much more realistic view of the parts of it. And we get to see how it's hard sometimes, but we also get to see the benefits of putting a kid first, putting the relationship that the child has with each parent ahead of our other adult concerns. What are some of the things that like that you feel like parents need to know about co-parenting? Like the, what are the myths that you like to bust? What are the, you know, the common misunderstanding? 

Ashley: So there's a lot on social media, like you just said about co-parenting, which I think it's great that it takes away a lot of the shame and guilt associated with divorce when kids are involved. So I think that's awesome. But the part that I don't like and why I am really building up my continent with, you know, my experience is you don't have to be best friends and that is for things to be successful and to have low conflict and to have children who feel equally loved by their parents and feel like they still have a family unit, you don't have to be besties. In fact, that can quite often lead to lots of conflict and the people that I've spoken with and you know, the podcasting that I'm doing now myself, that's not like the norm. That's why I try to do a lot of videos about, you know, I did one recently where my ex and my fiance are just having a quick chat in the driveway after pick up and drop off and that was a win. We couldn't have done that a year ago. This was even just being able to do pick up and drop off between the two of us and not have a third party anymore, like is great. So I think it's celebrating those little winds is really important and it builds your confidence back up.

I know when I was going through this, like my confidence as a parent was at an all time low, I just felt like I'd let my daughter down and I had ruined her life. But that's not the case. I think you should just strive to do whatever necessary to keep conflict low because studies and research shows that it's not necessarily the divorce itself that determines the child's resilience. It's the amount of conflict within the family between the parents. 

Laura: Yeah, I'm so glad you're mentioning that research. I think that that's something that are still so misunderstood about divorce and separating. I know that there are people listening right now who are contemplating it interesting in a home that's filled with conflict and not great interactions. And they're staying for their kids because they love them and they want to give them a family. You know, that they thought they were supposed to have the research really is pretty clear that it divorce itself is not the problem. It's the conflict. That's the problem. So, and regardless of whether you stay together, you don't, you've got to learn new conflict skills, right? Regardless. 

Ashley: For sure, Jennifer and I on our podcast, we talk a lot heavily about communication skills. And another kind of benefit to me in this whole journey is learning how to be a better listener and how to be an active listener and how to communicate my needs clearly and again, bring it up again, but boundaries, boundaries and respecting boundaries. 

Yeah. And so, you know, sometimes have people slide into my DMS like I just texted on this now he's saying that or she's saying that and it's like, okay, first of all you're texting, why are we texting? 

Laura: You don't need to? Yeah. So what do we need to do? How should we communicate with our co-parents? 

Ashley: So there's a few options, like some people will use apps such as like our Family Wizard, which I don't use personally. It's an app that you can text through. It logs, everything attracts everything. And it also filters out any inappropriate language which can be helpful. But I think the greater takeaway in forms of communication is to do whatever you need to do to ensure that you are responding and not just reacting a lot of the time when you get a text, it can derail so quickly because you're making assumptions about what was said and you're replying to quickly and more often than not, we're not taking the time to really think about what the person is trying to say and what we want to say back to focus forward. 

So I would personally recommend, first of all, is it child-centered? Because if it's not really don't need to get into that also, it's a lot. But this is where boundaries come in because I would never say you want to just go someone entirely, but you need to make it very clear if you can early on that I think it's best that for right now we just try to focus on only communicating about what the kids need, their immediate needs are and giving yourself some space in the beginning, know that it's definitely possible you can maybe grow a bit of a friendship later on and have more chit chat later on, but your emotions are so intense in the beginning, like you need that space. 

Laura: They may always be intact. 

Ashley: Always be. And that's ok. 

Laura: Yeah. An intense relationship with this person, a deep love person that created a family. Yeah, so things might always be there. Okay, so then maybe after we're out of kind of the intense conflict stage, we've done some of the pieces that you're talking about here, where we've had really conscious communication, we've had really good boundaries and maybe we're moving into like where we can feel a little bit more comfortable. Are there ways to kind of get on the same page as parents when you're co-parenting? You know what I mean? So we talked about before, you know when we just have to kind of accept that they are going to do things different. I believe that to be true. Even when you are parenting in the same house there's a piece of staying in your own lane no matter where your parenting partner is parenting, you know.

Ashley: I think it really depends on who you were as a couple and the reasons why you divorced in the first place you know maybe if it was just like lack of communication mostly and like you know over the years that builds up and then there was just no going back. You probably have a much greater chance of being able to. Like you said, once things have settled you have a parenting plan in place, Your divorce is finalized. Maybe you both have new partners. Is there a chance that your kid tells you something that happened at your former spouses and you want to have a discussion about it with them and it goes well, you can set time aside, make time for a discussion on at that time and move forward. But you are coming from a really toxic relationship or someone with a personality disorder. There was some abuse like you don't necessarily have to full-on parallel parent where you basically don't talk at all, but I think that in order to keep things as low conflict as possible unless it's a health or safety issue, you should really try to stay in your own lane.

Like just as an example, I'm in a fairly good place with my ex now, but I catch myself wanting to insert myself into his parenting. Still, quite a bit like we had a little bit of chit-chat today, just on the phone about something and he told me about my daughter throwing a tantrum over the weekend and he said he had to put her on a time out. You know, I told her you're going right to your bed, and immediately I wanted to be like, can we just not call it like, you're going to bed? Like, were you doing the 123? Like I, you know, I want to go into that, but I knew if I did that, there was a chance you might react by you're questioning me, you're questioning my parenting and ultimately I know she was okay. They adapt to their circumstances, right? Like, I mean, even who my daughter is at daycare is probably a little bit different than who she is with me, her teacher and I both have rules, but they're not exactly the same. And that's OK because she learns different things from daycare and different things from me, and that's what makes us all well rounded. I don't know if that really answers.

Laura: No, that's so helpful to think about those things and there's a piece of it to that. Like we can't be responsible for all of the relationships our children are going to have were responsible for the relationship we have. We can absolutely do things to protect the relationships that they have with other people. I mean, and this goes for everybody in our kids' lives, had to figure this out with my own parents that they would do things that I did not like that were not in line. 

And I had to take out like where is the line, where is damage occurring, where is hurt occurring? What is my role in this is my role to set a limit. Helping my daughter set a boundary is my role to comfort my daughter afterwards, because my daughter has some really firm body boundaries. She does not like to be touched unexpectedly. She has a heightened nervous system from some birth trauma and it's just there, you know, And so there's one grandparent in particular who touches her unexpectedly and it's really hard on her nervous system. A lot of my work with her has been rather than focusing on that grandparent has been focusing on my daughter. Yes. How do you set that boundary? How do you communicate that you know?

Ashley: To empowering her? I think it depends on that note and I love everything that you just said they're like because my daughter is very young, there's only so much that I can do with her, but I know with older Children absolutely, it's having the discussion with them and asking them what they're okay with and what they're not okay with because sometimes, like I have a lot of people say my ex is asking our child to call the new partner, mom or dad or some name, that they're not okay within the thing. I always think and I know this is painful. I know it's a sensitive thing, but it's like, okay, well how does the child feel about it? Is the kid okay with it? Is the kid maybe saying something different to you because they know you're not okay with it. Like it's we have to ask these questions. We have to ask what's best for a child, not like what are we getting upset about? What are we inserting into this situation?

Laura: Like getting our ego out of it about the kids so hard to do that. That feels like it must be just like this, like rubber band that just wants to bring back right into place and you're kind of just having to push it off to the side and it's kind of just always giving you a bit of resistance. I don't know. 

Ashley: Yeah, I mean even when you were describing the situation with your daughter and the grandparents, I mean it makes me think of, you know grandparents and my own situation and I love my parents too, but you know, sometimes they do things differently and it's so hard, it's so hard not to say anything because it's just it's recognizing like okay, I'm having this thought, I'm kind of being triggered by this, but it's because I love my kids and I just want what's best for them, even just taking a minute to acknowledge that it brings me a little sense of relief, like, OK, I care, therefore I'm doing a great job. 

Laura: Yes. And that little touch of compassion for yourself to that sounds like a little mini compassion break that you're giving yourself just a little bit of like, okay, that's what this feeling is, Love and protection and safety and wanting to show up for my kid, okay, I'm a good person and now and then we can lead when we bring a little bit of compassion, just a snitch to our conversations, we show up differently. Our tone of voice is different or softened and we get a better result, don't you think? 

Ashley: Absolutely. And you said yeah, having compassion for ourselves and for the other person in case of divorce and co-parenting. Having compassion for the other parent. I mean, even professionals, like I'm sure even you you know, you've been faced with situations as a parent where you're like, I think I know what to do, but I don't like I don't know 100%. I'm kind of just trying my best here and we don't know for sure on so many things I guess is what I'm trying to get at. And so even though you know, we want to say to the other parent, I think you should be doing it this way well why like a control thing or what?

And then I think like over time if you don't make a mountain out of a molehill on every little thing, then when you're faced with something that just really isn't sitting well with you for a few days and you really want to address it, then you have a much greater chance even in a very high conflict situation of having the other person give you the opportunity to calmly voice your concerns and if you're keeping the concern like child-focused, I think you're doing this wrong. You know, instead of that, maybe I have concerns about our child, you know about this area of their development or this piece, can we talk about that? Or even sometimes I ask my ex if it's something I that's just not sitting well with me, I'll say, “Hey, I've been really struggling with this. Like, have you noticed that with her? Has she been acting out with you in this way?” And I just asked, Yeah. And then it's not confrontational, it's just a conversation and it's just both. It's me saying, hey, like I'm not perfect, can we work together on this? 

Laura: Yeah, it's teamwork and that's what that felt like to me when you were saying it. Yeah, I love that you're kind of touching on all of the forces of conscious communication, right? So I'm getting really clear on what it is that you want to say what your goals are that you're focused on your child. Getting curious what could be going on. You know, what do I like, curious with yourself, curious with compassion. I mean you're touching on all of them. The fourth scene there is connection and I think like if we're prioritizing the connection that our child has with us and with their partner with their other parent, regardless of how we feel about the other parent, that connection, that parent-child relationship is important, right? Yes. And regardless of how we feel, we've got a, it's the relationship that we have to support, right? The connection. Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. You nailed it all of that? Yes. Okay, good. 

Laura: Okay. Well I really appreciate this conversation. I feel like we don't get to talk about it enough. And so I'm really glad that you're putting this information out there for parents who really, really need it. Where can people find you? I know I mentioned your, your handle on Instagram. I kind of like, I'm just out on Instagram today. You know, these days you're the conscious co-parent on Instagram. Yes. Where can they find you? You know on Tiktok or your podcast. 

Ashley: Thank you. So yeah, the podcast one more time is split the after ever after podcast and that is with myself and my co-host is a family law mediator and she's just amazing. She specializes in really high conflict situations and just a communication expert all around and we have some really great guests on that show. So you can check that out. But the best way to connect with me is really you're on Instagram, go to Instagram and in my bio I have a link to all my other media outlets. So Tiktok, Facebook, and a bunch of links as well. Website is in the works but not up yet. 

Laura: Yeah I hope that you have a course coming out soon. There's something, at some point, a way people can learn with you. 

Ashley: Yes, thank you. My coaching certification will be done in April and then I have a certain number of hours until fully fully certified and ready to take clients. 

Laura: So good for you. Okay? It's exciting times gay everybody get over there and follow her so you can get on the ground floor of all the beautiful things that she's building. Actually, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. It's a conversation that is so important and it was so helpful to have you talk with us. Thank you. 

Ashley: Thank you, Laura. I love what you put out into the world equally if not more. So it was an honor to be here with you today. 

Laura: Well, thank you so much. This is so fun. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um, and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.