Episode 72: Divorce from a Child's Perspective with Kimberly Ewertz (Divorce Series No. 2)

I know that for most couples, as they are navigating a divorce and separation, one of their biggest worries is the effect it will have on their children. Most modern research on divorce is showing that the negative effects on children can usually be attributed to the negative conflict in the years leading up to the divorce, rather than the divorce itself, and can actually be minimal when the couple divorces and then co-parents in a "healthy" way (see last week's episode for how!).

However, we actually have very few accounts from the child's perspective on the effects of divorce and how to make it easier on kids. As parents committed to honoring children's emotions & experience, doesn't it just make sense then that we would seek to understand divorce from a child's perspective? So when an author reached out to me with a book filled with first-hand accounts of adults who reflect on their parent's divorce & guidance to parents navigating these waters, I knew I had to share them with you!

And so for the second episode of the Divorce Series, we are going to focus on the child's experience. And to have this conversation, I'm bringing in a colleague, expert, and a former analyst, Kimberly Ewertz. After experiencing divorce, she witnessed the devastating effect it had on her child. She got support and with the help of a therapist realized that some of what she had been doing in an attempt to protect her son was actually making things worse. She very bravely details these mistakes and how she went about repairing with her son, and her insights and suggestions actually apply to ALL parent-child relationships!

Here is a summary of our conversation:

  • What children experience during and after a divorce

  • How do we help children get through parents' separation

  • How to have healthy emotional boundaries with your children

  • How to know when kids need support

To learn more about a child's perspective on divorce, get Kim's book Family Redefined: Childhood Reflections on the Impact of Divorce. It's available on Amazon.com and her website www.familyredefinedbook.com. Her book has been nominated for several prestigious awards and won first place in the Midwest Book Awards for the non-fiction Family/Parenting category. And to be updated on Kim's work, follow her on Facebook @FamilyRedefinedBook.


TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody. This is Dr. Laura Froyen with another episode in The Balanced Parent Podcast and we were continuing with our series on divorce, co-parenting, separation, and all things family-separation related. And in this episode, we're going to be focusing on the child's experience. And so to have this conversation, I'm bringing in a colleague and expert, a former journalist who after her own divorce and witnessing the effect it had on her child and realizing the limited availability of children's reflections and perspectives on divorce, she knew that there was a story to tell here. And so I'm bringing in Kim Ewertz and she's going to help us understand more about what kids go through in the midst of divorce and settling into new co-parenting relationships and arrangements and answer some of our questions.

So, Kim welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you do and your book?

Kim: Well, thank you first of all, Laura for inviting me to your show and having this platform to inform and get the word out that this book is available because I believe it can help every divorce parent as well as be the perfect resource for them to help their children.

I'm a divorced mom. My son Tony was 10 and I knew I was getting us out of very bad environment, emotionally physically abusive environment. So going in, I was so naive to know that this was only going to be positive. How could this have any negative repercussions if I'm taking us out of a bad environment. But unfortunately it did and I witnessed that for the first year after the divorce when he pulled away from me and stopped saying I love you. It was heartbreaking. So years have passed and I've always wanted to get something out there to help divorced parents and their children in a way that I needed and couldn't find because there's plenty of information out there from the experts, you know, which is wonderful and beneficial. But what is the child feeling? What is the child experiencing and how do we help them get through that? The best way I felt to do that was to use my journalistic abilities and tell other people's stories.

So I gave voice to nine adult children of divorce and each chapter in the book is chapter each of their story from the time they first found out about the divorce all the way up into present day. When I interviewed them, I reflected on what that time was like and how the impact of their parents' decision to divorce has carried through in their lives and affected them. The 10th chapter I felt important because it offers how to do it right. It's a mother who had a 10 month old when her husband came home and said marriage is over. I went out. So now her child is 10 years old and she reflects back on those 10 years and the difference that she's seen in her child compared to since she's been remarried she's had two other children And they're both girls. So she can really see that there is a difference and she knows that that was partly mostly due to the divorce. And even though she was only 10 months old, it's had and continues to have an impact on her.

So I just want to get this out there and I felt it important to interview professionals in the field of marriage and family counseling so that all throughout the chapters we can provide those parents that are reading the book really helpful advice and information that they might not have the ability or the resources to go get counseling themselves. And there's even at the back of the book, A Q and A. And it's a Q and A. With the experts. So it's additional questions that are very common among divorced parents that I felt was important to include as well. 

Laura: I think that's so important. It's great to have tips and tricks and ideas for us to do as parents when we're in these situations. But I also think, you know, one of my biggest reasons we're doing what I do is I see myself as a child advocate. And so I really love that you are bringing awareness to the perspectives of kind of the child's experience. I think that that's really wonderful and so important and missing in so much of what we do, even in the hair now when kids are little, we often neglect to think about what their experiences are, what their ideas are and ask them, get curious with them. So what are some of the things that you learned about a child's experience of divorce? Was there anything that surprised you or that stood out to you?

Kim: Oh yeah, over and over again. But the one that always pops to mind was my very first interview. So that was over five years ago when I started this whole project. She was in her mid-50s, her name's Lisa in the book and all the names are fictional to keep everyone anonymous for their sake. She was six years old when her parents announced her they're going to separate. So she spent the majority of her time with her mother and all parents. Do we put on a brave front, we want to show that our children that were strong and that we're going to get through this. So, Lisa's mom did exactly that. And in the interview, she said if my mom had just kind of let down her guard and been honest with me about what her fears were and what she was really experiencing at the same time reassuring her that they would get through this. She said that would have just given her such a feeling of camaraderie that oh, it's okay to be scared right now, because mom feels scared too. 

So by opening ourselves up and being honest with our children, even in a worst case scenario, like a divorce, you're only gonna bring your child closer to you and we all want them to be honest with us. So why shouldn't we be honest with them? I thought that was eye opening. And I'm like, oh, I wish I had known that. 

Laura: I think that that's something for all parents to know that kids are born aware. They know and they are very interested in our emotional experience, our well being. Because they rely on us, right? And so they need to know that we're okay. And they can tell when we're faking it. They can tell when that wall is up, when our guard is up, when we're kind of holding it together and not being authentic and real they can tell. Then there's this tricky balance of being honest, being real and then but not leaning on them, you know, having good healthy boundaries, reassuring them that, yes, this is a hard time. And these are the places where I'm going to get support from adults because adults go to adults and kids go to adults, you know, right. But yeah.

Kim: Some of the therapists have said exactly that large. They said, you know, reassure your child as you're being honest with them of what you're experiencing, that mom or dad has resources. We have friends. I have family members, I have, you know, classes that I'm taking and I'm seeing somebody who's helping me through this journey so that I can be my best me and I can help you. And together we're going to get through this because you know, to forget to reassure them, then the child becomes a bit parentified meaning they take on the role of the parent and they think, well I have to take care of mom or I have to take care of dad and that happens all too often with, you know, a lot of cases of divorce, one of the parents just shuts down as being a parental role model and the child because they live in kind of like a self absorbed world. You know, it's all about them. They feel like there is no one else other than them to take on that responsibility and that's too daunting for any child. You know, even if they're a teenager, it's not fair. Please keep that in mind when, you know, you're going through this.

Laura: And this is true for going through any hard times. Like even now in the midst we're recording this kind of at the, you know, we're a month out from the year mark of the pandemic. You know, I mean, it's hard time for parents, just even the average parent has to be remembered to be real, authentic, honest and also have good emotional boundaries where they're relying on their support systems as opposed to relying on their kids. These are important takeaways. 

You mentioned something that made me kind of curious if this ever came up in your book. And if you have any ideas for parents, like how do you know, when your kid needs support? So oftentimes as parents are moving through this, they're getting support either from a therapist. There's even divorced therapists that specialize in separating well, but how do you know when your kids need support? 

Kim: Well, all the experts I talked to said that even from, you know, zero to two, you know, the child is going to feel the stress or the frustration that, you know, the environment of the home, even if they can't comprehend it, you know, intellectually that they're taking that in. And so you have to be all the more present with your child and give them the additional attention they need so that they have that feeling of connection. Connection is huge. And so a child that feels they're not receiving that may sometimes, you know, little older, like toddlers on up, they may start displaying anger because anger is one of the very first responses to finding out that their parents are no longer going to stay together and they'll do it through play. They'll do it through maybe crashing cars are, you know, having dolls fight. 

So if you can see that, you know, the play that your children are doing is a bit different. You know, and you're seeing some hostility come out. Or even in their words, you know, if they're being hostile to you, then you know, that they're just trying to reach you in some way and they're so young that they don't have that skill set yet to say, please help me. So they're doing it through, you know, actions and mostly actions if they're younger and the older kids, you know, you have to just be on again the word honesty, but you have to be honest with them and say, I know this is a hard time and I'm sorry we're all going through this, but I want you to talk to me, you know.

And then you do what they call active listening. I believe that I have that correct. One of the therapists says, you know, you're not leading the conversation. You're letting the child take you where they want to go. You know, talk about what they want to talk about. And you allow them to have their feelings. You know, if they're negative or even if they're angry at you, my son got so angry at me. He was 10. So all of his anger was coming out and I didn't, sorry, Hey, we're all real parents here. Even though it's been a long time ago. It's, you know, remembering those days when he was so angry with me, he stopped saying, I love you mom. You know, that was our good night. I love you Tony. I love you too. Mom See you in the morning and that was gone for over nine months. 

I at the time was going to therapy because I sent my son to therapy first thinking I can't help you. I'm kind of an emotional mess. So get you the help you need through outside resources. And he was just one as another important. I'm sorry. I'm rambling on.

Laura: You're doing great. This is, I'm like learning and this is so good.

Kim: But that's an another important aspect about therapy is children don't always respond to it. They might not be ready to confront what they're going through or they just don't get it. And maybe they were never that verbal with their feelings and emotions at home. So to take them to the, you know, atmosphere where they're sitting in a group where they're sitting one on one and say, okay, time to talk, tell this person you've never met before, this complete stranger what your inner thoughts and feelings are. They'll be like, no, no, that's not gonna happen. And my son would hide under the table at the therapy room, you know, the group therapy room and wait till my shoes at the door and then he would come out. 

So he was not receptive. So that therapist suggested that I get therapy and it was the best thing I could have done because by getting help for me, I was able to be stronger and more healthy for him. And then we eventually got through that journey together and we came out on the other end of it all the stronger. Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. I know I rambled on. I'm sorry. 

Laura: I know it was so good. I think you hit on something that a big takeaway from what I'm hearing you say, and from these stories is that the conscious and respectful parenting that all of my listeners are working towards right now, that those are foundational skills that help carry you through hard times as a family, Whatever your family structure looks like being able to listen and hold space for your kids feelings, being able to accept them, acknowledging that when our kids are struggling and where we're struggling with our kids often it's us we have to look at instead of them that feeling our own cup, taking care of ourselves for so that we can hold space for our kids. You're hitting on all of the high points of what I want people to take away from all of my podcast episodes. 

Kim: So that's why your program is so beneficial to parents everywhere. Even though my son is all grown up now. It's like I've learned from your podcast.

Laura: Is it okay if I ask like, what does Tony think of your work, your son? What does?

Kim: Yeah, of course. Let me talk about my son.

Laura: I wish you all could see her facing now. She's all lit up just like we all do. Apparently that never goes away.

Kim: Ever. Never. He's 41 now. So he designed the cover of the book. 

Laura: Oh wow. Yeah, it's super supportive.

Kim: Super supportive. He has a chapter in the book. It's on you know, anonymous name. But at the end when I share my thoughts as I deal with each chapter, I let the reader know that this is a special chapter for me because it's my son's story. So he wanted to participate, he wanted it to be in there because he knew how important this was. So he has been super supporter as my husband has been as well, so I could not be prouder of either of them and I'm so grateful for their continued support.

Laura: That's beautiful. I think something that I'm picking up right now too is that the message that you don't have to know how to do this perfectly. You can have ups and downs, you can move through it with grace and self compassion and you can make adjustments along the way. And the outcome can be a wonderful close and loving relationship with your child.

Kim: Exactly, yes, exactly. We stumbled through it many times you were able to reconnect and the older he got, the more honest I could be. But I tried always to do what the experts explain is one of the worst things you can do. So I try to always refrain from putting down his father. Even though there were lots of reasons to do that. That's something else. You vent to your friends, your family members to your therapist. You don't have to carry that anger and frustration inside. And once I had that release through the therapy, you know, I could get all those feelings out and not burden my son with them because it's unfair to taint his relationship with his father because all the experts say it's the child that needs to make the decision about how they feel about their parent. 

The other parent can't persuade them one way or the other. They have to be neutral territory because you're just hurting your child. If you're trying to, you know, downgrade the other parent, it makes them feel like they're being disloyal to both parents. You just do not want to do that to your child. They don't deserve that.

Laura:  No, they don't. And I think that boundary is so important, having really healthy boundaries around that, around what is your relationship with your former partner and what is your child's relationship with your former partner and not doing anything that gets in the way of that Even when it's hard. And I, for many families, it's very, very difficult. Especially if, you know, there's some very big reasons why. Yeah, very high conflict. Yeah. It's really hard but really important. And I think you are so right to highlight why it's so important for you to have for the parents to have their support systems with adults where they can have that outlet so that they can be more balanced and well regulated. I mean really what that's what it is. It's self regulation, Be well regulated and emotionally balanced with their kids for the benefit of the child, not for the benefit of the ex partner, but for the child.

Kim One of the experts use the example of on a plane, you know with the oxygen mask, you put it on yourself first before you do it for your child. Because if you're not taking care of yourself, you can't take care of them. So it's the same philosophy,  is the same school of thought. You know, we have to take care of us so that we can be our strongest and give them our strength when they need it and just let them that even if what they want to say is negative, whatever their, you know, situation they’re being negative about, they're going through this difficult time. So let them have that that space to just be honest and tell you, you know, I'm mad at you for leaving dad or I'm mad at dad for not being with us, whatever it is. Just allow them to talk.

Laura: Allow, allow, allow. Yeah.

Kim: Never shut them down.

Laura: Try not to take it personally too, it’s just hard, so hard. But that,  allow, always feels so spacious to me like that. There's when we're allowing people to have their own experiences and perspectives. Even small children, there's just more room, there's more room for me, there's more room for the child and there is just you know, it just feels less, I don't know. Their experience can be out here when we're allowing it can be out in front of us. We can see it as opposed to taking it in and like taking it on as our own. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. 

Kim: That's a very good example. You know that if you know, you're witnessing what they're going.

Laura: Yeah, witnessing it, not necessarily agreeing with it or saying yes you're right but saying yeah, you're acknowledging feel that way. Yeah.

Kim: Acknowledge their feelings. That's as important as agreeing with them. I think like you said, you don't have to agree with them with everything, but you acknowledge that they have every right to that feeling. I think that's key. 

Laura: I think so too. I know that we're talking about in situations of divorce, but really like this just applies to everyday parents and every relationship to this is the basis of healthy resilient relationships, you know? Beautiful.

Kim: Takes so much away from it.

Laura:  Absolutely. Because that's what the parent-child relationship is at the end of the day, right? It's just a human relationship and the basics are pretty universal. Kimberly, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom on this. Um why don't we make sure that everybody knows the full name of your book and where to find it? Of course, will have links in the show notes, but sometimes people like to hear it out loud. 

Kim: Oh sure. The title of the book is Family Redefine: Childhood reflections on the impact of divorce. And of course it's available on Amazon, but it's also available with my publisher, Little Creek Press. Oh, and if I might boast a bit. My book is a finalist in the Independent Book Awards for the category of family and parenting. I congratulate and feel honored. Just you know, I know it's cheesy to say, I feel honored to be nominated, but it's the truth. I'm like, there's truth to that.

Laura:  That's wonderful.

Kim: That competition is judged by librarians and educators and that just like brought it a lump to my throat. And I'm like, those people see the value to this book. So I did good. 

Laura: You did. You did. I think that everybody listening has for sure taken away something that they will apply to their family that they can use right now today. And I hope that everybody who is listening will go and pick up this book because I think it's not just parents who are moving through a divorce or separation that could benefit from some of the takeaways here. There is not enough of children's perspectives out there for us to learn from. There's just isn't and I'm so thankful that you wrote a book from this perspective and that you shared it here with us. 

Kim: Thank you so much Laura. I can't thank you enough. You're a beacon of light to parents everywhere. 

Laura: The feeling is for letting me be on your show, so happy to have you. Thank you.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um, and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.