Episode 78: Live Coaching: Challenging Behaviors (Challenging Behaviors Series No. 2)
/I really hoped you enjoyed last week's episode, which was the first installment of a two-part series on "challenging behaviors". We really dug into the "why" behind these behaviors and how to help kiddos through these hard times. Now, I know that sometimes my episodes are a bit conceptual, or theoretical, and that can make it hard to really know what this all looks like in practice. This is why I love it when one of my BalancingU Membership folks agrees to talk through some common challenges on the podcast with us (free coaching is a perk of the membership, learn more here!)
And so, for the second installment of the Challenging Behavior Series, I have invited a member of my Balancing U Community to share her experience on this topic. Now, this mother has five kiddos with different personalities. Two boys are internal processors who are calmer in general but are still aggravated when upset. Another one is a verbal processor who is impulsive both physically and verbally. There is a lot going on in this family and this wonderful mother handles it with so much love and grace! In this live coaching session, we will be tackling how to have boundaries and reframing them so that we can address challenging behaviors with compassion and patience. With practice and our help, our children will be able to stop themselves from hitting, kicking, and throwing.
And to help you even more, download my free cheat sheet on how to build self-regulation through play!
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hi Stephanie, So why don't you just tell us a little bit about your family, what you've got going on and how I can support you.
Stephanie: Yeah, so my name is Stephanie Sims and I have four little boys. There are 2,4,5 and eight and we have one on the way due in July and we don't know if it's a boy or girl. We have found out with every single one of them except for this one. So that's driving everyone crazy. I feel like everyone wants a girl, but I would be totally happy either way. I am home schooling them all this year, so it's been really eye opening to just I'm a teacher in general, I'm a special education teacher, but I've been home now for a couple of years but it's been really interesting just seeing like who they are as learners and kind of what things trigger them, what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are.
I feel like it just has given me a really good insight into my Children just in general. So I'm super thankful for this time, also super thankful for teachers. But it's cool next fall, but it's been really, really good and I opening to really spend this much time with my kids, they came home, you know last march of 2020 before the pandemic and we just stayed home this entire time. So so yeah, I have also been seeing some things we started talking about that I reached out to you for um with some of my kids, I don't know if you want to go into that, but I would love just wisdom from you, some just even encouragement or whatever around certain behaviors that I've been seeing.
Laura: Yeah, I think you're not alone in seeing new and different sides to our kids, things, you know, having interactions, seeing them in context that we normally would not have access to when they're in school away from us. Think lots of parents are seeing new sides to their kids, some incredibly positive and some a little concerning and we would never even have known about if we weren't having our kids at home like we are and like many of us have had this past year. So yeah, go dive into it. What are you seeing that you're worried about?
Stephanie: So I have a, so all of my boys, obviously they're all different, they all have different personalities and whatever. I have two boys who are a little more like internal processors and they're also just calmer in general, but when they are, even when they get upset, it is still just this more like I'm aggravated like and then it just kind of blows over 99% of the time. Obviously they have tantrums or whatever, but typically it's handled in a quote unquote, like not mature, it's probably not the right word but a way that like seems typical to me for a child and then
Laura: I have a like socially acceptable. Like they handle disappointments or aggravations or frustrations in a way that's more acceptable, right?
Stephanie: It's also quicker.
Laura: Quicker.
Stephanie: Yeah, like they get over it quicker, like I can almost reason with them more, you know, so it's like that initial kind of like fire and then it's like, okay, you know, we can kind of, I can talk through it with them or whatever, but then I have just run into another one of my Children who is very much a verbal processor and he is very impulsive, both physically and verbally and so part of that I think is I mean I'm an external processor, I know that a verbal processor just in general.
So I think that we kind of share that but at the same time it's typically not a positive thing. It is typically like he gets mad, he immediately punches or like he gets mad and it's an immediate, I hate you or you're the worst or some like very strong language that like I don't know that with my other kids I've ever been told I hate you, we don't even use the word hate in our home. And so it's like these words that are coming out of his mouth that are very strong but then I'm like hey where did you even hear those from?
You know what I mean? Into Jesuli people? Like it is I mean it is like spitfire like the second something happens there, it doesn't seem to be any kind of like reasoning time or like time to think about what is happening logically and so me trying to parent that I'm trying to be aware of the fact that like okay you're at least telling me how you're feeling but at the same time you can't punch your brothers, he doesn't punch me but also you can't talk like that. I had my two year old, I asked him to put a toy away the other day and he literally looked at me and said, oh, I hate you mom. Mm I don't know,
Laura: You're worried that language now, you know?
Stephanie: And I was like, oh no, this is not okay. So anyways, I'm like, just working through
like how the heck do I respect the fact that he's feeling what he's feeling, but also putting up boundaries of like this isn't okay. And oftentimes he fairly immediately regrets it. Like he will punch or he will say something and he'll look at me like I shouldn't have done that. I know that now I'm going to have to have some kind of consequences. But you know what I mean? So I feel guilty because I'm like, okay, you know what you're doing, I don't know what's.
Laura: Right. So you know, you've said a couple of times like you can't do that, it's obvious. He knows that he's, he knows he's not supposed to do that. So one thing that can be really helpful is to just reframe this all of this from something that he has active choice and will over to something that is impulsive. Like you were saying before. So the general assumption that in those moments when he is overwhelmed, when he's flooded, when he's triggered. If he could do something different than hitting or saying a hurtful phrase.
He would, because he knows he's not supposed to do that. You see it in his face the second it comes out and he does it, then he's like, oh no, I wasn't supposed to do that or something. Yeah, he knows he's not supposed to do that. So there's this phrase that comes out of Ross Green's work. He wrote the book the Explosive Child, this says that kids do well when they can, sometimes I like to extend that to say more broadly, kids do well when they have the skills they need to do better, you know? So this is clearly a moment where you have a kiddo who is gets dis regulated.
So when you were describing your two other kiddos and then this one, I had a very clear picture of two kids who were well regulated, who can handle the ups and downs of life and when they, you know, get a little bit dis regulated, that can bring themselves back down into an even keeled state. And then you have one kiddo who has some self regulation, I don't like to use the word deficits, but just some self regulation skills that need built some different abilities, some different needs, some different, like levels of what he's capable of right now at this developmental stage.
And so you're noticing something between your kids that I think is so important for us to keep in mind is that none of these things are on purpose For the most part, this is temperament and personality, something that is kind of inborn something that's in the neurobiology and it's the luck of the draw for kids. So you have two kids who have a lucky response to being upset. They have a response that socially acceptable. They had the skills that they need to regulate and modulate their behavior in moments when they're upset.
They're just lucky. And you have another child who has an unlucky response to being upset, there's no good or bad attached to it just one some some kids got through the luck of the draw, they got these skills and through the luck of the draw, your other one got another set of coping behaviors. My kids have a very similar division. I have one kid who's when she's overwhelmed and upset, she crumples and cries and asks for a hug.
Like that's a super like lucky response. That response inspires compassion. That response is like, oh you're struggling here, come let me help you. Where's my other one when she's struggling with the exact same things, can't get her shoes on a seem as funky, you know, in her shoe. You know, she yells, screams, I hate you and throws the shoe at me,
Stephanie: right.
Laura: it's the same problem. There's a wrinkle in her sock or the seam in her sock that feels uncomfortable in her shoe. Just that one kid has a really lucky response to that one that inspires compassion and connection and and assistance and the other one has an unlucky response. One that inspires punishment control, making sure she knows it's not okay. Do you know what I mean? Like so, and so you're noticing that in your kids, I wanted some of your kids have a lucky response and some have an unlucky response. How does that reframing help at all?
Stephanie: Yeah. Well, so I think that it's helpful for me for a couple of reasons. Number one, I think that it helps me not look at it as good and bad. It helps me, you were on my podcast a while ago and I feel like I say to myself all the time and none of my kids all the time and actually in my stuff that I'm doing in my webinar that I'm doing right now, I'm talking about trauma and it's all related to finances.
But I like pointed back to you so many times, even in my thing because when you said every child gets something different, but every child gets what they need right. Every child gets what they need, but every child needs something different. Like to me that just was like, okay, I can just take a freaking breath because this kid needs something different than all of my other kids, you know, or they all just need something different. So I think it's really helpful for me to look specifically at each of the kid and to not necessarily like you said, don't attach any moral to it. It's not good or bad. It's just it is kind of what it is.
So it gives me a starting place, I guess, to go from there. And what I'm also seeing in this child is he's very, very sensory seeking. He is very physical, like, my husband at night lays his almost full weight on this child and he just loves it. Like he loves squeeze hugs. Like he just went like, honestly, sometimes we'll take my hand and squeeze it so hard and it hurts. And I'm like, wow, he's like, well, sorry, he just needs that really deep pressure. I don't know if that is like something else that might just be a part of this.
You know, that that immediate like, physical response could be that sensory seeking part of this also, but I will say what makes me sad I guess, or I don't know if it's sad or scared or whatever, it's that my two other kids are very close and I think it's because I mean for a lot of things they're closer in age, but they're all close at four kids in six years, but because that relationship between the others can be very, like, pretty cordial if they get mad it's over, but when this one enters into the conversation order to playing or whatever, when he's mad, it's like somebody's getting punched or if we have like, a cousin come over, I see this child being like they don't want me, he'll come in and say they don't want me to play where they stopped playing when I come over or whatever.
And I think like you were saying is that the other ones are seeking this connection or the way they handle conflict is seeking connection still or it's inviting this connection or empathy or whatever. The way that my child that we're talking about kind of goes into this conversation with even play and is impulsive and physical and aggressive, like verbally, then all of a sudden he's on the outside because like you said, that's not socially acceptable. So it breaks my heart for him to see that, you know. So anyways, that's like a deeper thing that I've started to see, but it's starting to like really upset my mom a heart for sure.
Laura: Of course it is, it's natural to be worried about our kids, futures and their relationships with each other and and future relationships with friends and partners down the road. Of course it's natural to worry about those things. Um so I just want to go back to the sensory seeking thing. I think you have great wisdom there and noticing that hitting is actually a very grounding response. It's something that he likely is doing intuitively to help himself regulate if that can be redirected.
So if in call moments, you can teach him how helpful hitting can be when we're hitting things that are safe to hit, that might be a conversation that you can have outside of the moment when he is in the moment, he can't learn something new and it's very, very hard to bring in a new skill when you know, as Dan Siegel would say our lids are flipped right? So when our frontal cortex is offline were triggered, we're in kind of our animal brain and our fight or flight system hitting as a fight response and hitting is grounding to our nervous systems because we're releasing that tension and we're completing the stress response cycle when we take that action, right? So if we can do a little bit of psycho education with our kids outside, explain that.
So when you feel like hitting, it's, your body is very, very wise response to get stressed out of your body, your body knows exactly what it needs to do to feel better. Hitting feels good to you, it feels good to your body, it feels settling to your body. Big jumps, feels settling to your body. What are some other things that feel like big squeezes feel good when dad lays on you, it feels good. Thinking about what other big high pressure inputs feel good and relating to them to his body is very wise, attempt to get regulated again and then my kids when they're in hitting phases.
We go around our house and find appropriate things to hit or kick and I have a client whose kid is a kicker and so they went through their house and in every room, they just committed, you know, this one piece of drywall, we're going to have to replace once they're older and they put up a square of blue painter's tape on it and they just committed like that blue square is gonna get replaced, were just committing to repairing our walls, you know, just this one square, they put blue painter's tape around it and they give a place for the kid to kick, you know,.
And so this is about accepting our kids, teaching them to listen to their bodies are very wise bodies and having another outlet. So finding things that he can hit, not his brother, but to get that impulse out to complete that stress cycle may be really helpful. I don't know if you've done that, explored other possibilities. I know you're a teacher so you probably know lots of this stuff.
Stephanie: I mean sometimes I feel like I, yeah, so like we'll do even like couch cushions or you know, just different things like that. But honestly like I feel like, especially even like today, today and yesterday, I have just been on edge too. So I'm like partly this is like my issue, but like,
Laura: It's always our issue. It’s always us.
Stephanie: Like I feel like I am like we have talked before, like I feel like I'm fairly trauma informed just being a special education teacher, being a foster parent, you know, all of these things. And so I'm pretty good at keeping my cool, like not rising with them and all of these things. However like the past two days I'm just like, oh my gosh, and this is like I shouldn't have said this and I know it when it's coming out of my mouth, I should not say this, but I'm like told him, I'm like, you literally cannot be around anyone without somebody getting hurt.
Like that's so bad to say to him, I already know that. But it's just like, I mean it was, I mean it was five times in an hour and it happened like multiple hours, you know? And it's like sometimes it's an accident, sometimes it's this impulsive behavior. He's mad, but it's like I can't, I can't focus or do anything because someone is getting hit, someone's getting, you know, he's just being too rough or whatever and I'm like I was annoyed that I said that, but I also don't even know that I could have stopped myself because it was like so constant and I'm like, what? Like I am just at a complete loss because I'm like, I don't know what to do because I have had the conversation with him. Like I said, he looks remorseful. It's not like he's just like screw it all.
Laura: Yeah. And I'm just not choices on his part. Yeah, these are not active choices on his part, even when he's like not even upset and he's being, you know, rough and tumble or whatever it is, You know, and somebody accidentally gets hurt for the most part, these are not active choices. I would imagine this is a dysregulated nervous system is what it sounds like to me. I can't remember if we talked before, if you've explored OT for him occupational therapy.
Stephanie: I haven't, but I mean I've noticed, like I said like the sensory stuff at me, but we also give him a lot of things. Like I said, like, you know, we'll give like sweet hugs, we got him away to blanket. We, you know, have done certain things like that, but I just don't think it's not like, I mean obviously that's not everything needs to be kind of working simultaneously with, with each other. But I'm just like getting to the point where, I mean, I can tell that I'm probably just regulated like it a lot going on and so it's just like, I'm like, I can't even focus on anything because somebody is always getting hurt or you know, and not badly hurt.
Like it's just even like a shove or push or whatever, but I'm like, I don't know how to parent this because I have other kids now picking up on this behavior, but then also like I can't watch him every second of every single day, every time I turn around, you know what I mean? So I'm just like, what the, how do I know this? And I've sent him to his room when I just like, can't even handle it because I don't want my other kids to get hurt, you know?
And again, it's not like it's not like it's getting punched in the face, it's just like it's enough to disrupt the whole vibe. And then I know I shouldn't just feel like sending him to his room. I do go and I talked to him, we decompress, we talk once he's whatever. But I'm like, that's to me that can probably have its place. But also I feel like it's pretty shameful just in general what I'm saying, things like you can't be around anyone without somebody getting hurt. It's not the right thing to say, but when I'm like, great, you know what I mean? I'm just like, I don't know what else to say so.
Laura: First of all I heard you say something that you don't know how to parent this kid and I would challenge you on that. You do know how to plant this kid. This kid was given to you on purpose. This is a kid who was so lucky to have you as his mom, there's a reason why this little one came into your life and is in your family, he fits just like all your other ones do. He's here for a reason and you are the just the right mom for him? Yeah, you are, Thank heavens he has you in other homes, We know what would be happening to this kid. Yeah. And that's not happening in your house and here you are sitting here with me trying to figure it out. Okay. Just the right mom for him.
Stephanie: When I feel like to that people will say like when I have conversations about him, when I reached out to you the first time I'm like, I feel like I'm not a good talker and cry. But I feel like, I feel like I'm somebody who I look into parenting stuff a lot. I read a lot of whatever. Like I said, I feel like I'm fairly trauma informed just in general.
But when I was told like some people on market name names, but like I need to reach out for somebody because I remember after a super rough day at some point, I just felt like, I remember, I think I have told you this already, but I remember sitting on the toilet lid was closed, it was just like after bath time or whatever. And I was like squeezing this kid and just like holding him and it was just a rough day just in general and they were about to go to bed, which I feel like why do we always, I feel like I always feel guilty once I go to bed because like when it's crazy and loud and during the day it's like, you know whatever, you just don't have any patients and then one
Laura: Survival mode.
Stephanie: Once I start to calm down, it's like, uh but I remember sitting on the toilet like just holding him, my boys were getting in bed, my husband is helping and I was just crying and I told Justin, I'm like, my husband, I'm like, I feel like we're like if something doesn't change, like I just feel like we're gonna lose him one day, like I feel like he's going to grow up and be like, I feel like I didn't fit in or I feel like they didn't understand me or whatever it was and we love him to death. He's like one of the sweetest kids, he's, I mean he's not always like that, he's super snuggly, he's such a mama's boy, you know, and I'm just like, he just needs something different that I don't really know how or what to get and so I'm not, you know.
So then that's when we kind of started talking just in general and some people are like, he's just a kid, he's just being a boy. He's so I'm like, I'm telling you, it's something different. You know, maybe I am doing things, I mean not everything right, but maybe I am doing things right and that just needs to be affirmed or maybe I'm not and I just need more tools, but like I refuse to have this child like in my home and not feel equipped to mother him, you know.
Laura: Yeah the way he needs it. So it will tell you that some kids do have different needs. And it sounds like this is a kid who has some differences, just has some different needs. Sounds like he's got a body that he doesn't always feel comfortable in. He doesn't know how to get comfortable in. And that's when the seeking comes in, right?
But kids who don't feel safe being themselves, they shut down and they stuff it I hear from so many parents whose kids are complete angels at school, do exactly what they are asked, they are obedient, they are compliant, they are angels and then they come home and it's a different story, a different kid and that's because that kid knows it's not safe to be dis regulated at school. It's not that they're well regulated at school, it's that they're holding it together.
You've created an environment where your child feels safe to be themselves. So as much as I understand that fear, especially when you've got one kid who is different, that feeling, you know, the fear that he will feel, it has felt like an outsider, it's clear to me that he wouldn't be doing this if he didn't feel safe to be himself with you. There's that too, there's that too okay, so the thing is with kiddos like this, we've got to make sure that they're kind of, their nervous systems are getting the help and support that they need. You're already doing some sensory stuff because you have this great background that you already know quite a bit, it might be helpful to just think about working with a professional sometimes with these kids who we get pushed back with or who are intense, they get better results when someone who's not the mom is doing some of that work with them, they see things differently.
Like there was stuff that I had this time, like with my oldest where I knew for a while we needed more support and I resisted it because I didn't want to have to admit that I like this is my job, I'm supposed to do this. Like I have my freaking PhD I should be able to do this, you know, all of those things and that kept her from getting the support that she needed for a couple years.
Like when we went in to OT. For the first time, it was immediately obvious to the therapist who did her assessment that there were a few things that she needed to work on and it would have been faster when she was younger. How did myself for waiting? It's okay to do your best. You know, So that's something to just consider, you know there, I mean, if there's other things to add in there, it sounds like he would benefit from some heavy work. I don't know if you've heard that phrase before.
Stephanie: Like literal heavy work. Like I used to have my school kids like carry around heavy backpacks in love.
Laura: Yes, yeah, yeah. So if you google like occupational therapy heavy work for kids, if you just google that there's lots of lists out there that you can get. But things like, hey buddy, I have this like stack of logs over here and we need to move it over here. Like they often kids you need heavy work, enjoy it and do it naturally or like, oh look, here's a sandpit, can you get dig to the bottom, like and they dig or moving wet laundry from the washing machine to the dryer and this is not like hard labor, it's deep pressure work, you know that they can be doing that oftentimes sensory seekers enjoy because it feels good and grounding.
The other thing though is that these skills that you want him to have, those things will help his body be more well regulated. Like I, I feel like the picture I'm getting of him is that when he's playing with kids, he kind of bumps into them, gets into their space a little bit more. When a normal kid would maybe like staying close, he like nudges them or bumps them over, you know, that kind of thing?
Stephanie: It's a lot of like bugging or like enticing, you know what I mean? Kind of into this whole thing Oregon. Just not impulsive, like I'm just kind of that, you know, so I'm gonna react immediately.
Laura: Some of that can even be a little bit of like appropriate reception, not aware of where their bodies are in space. It can also be like unskilled, like social skills, not knowing how to ask to join a games, all of those things. So taking care of his body, his physical body as one piece of it and then practicing and working on the skills he needs to be successful and what's really important is that that work has to happen outside of the moment. So there's a river analogy that I like to use in situations like this. So we're all traveling down the river of our lives and sometimes it's smooth and easy going and sometimes we're in the rapids and we're overwhelmed and this is true for you and it's true for all of your Children.
So when he is playing with a sibling and gets frustrated or annoyed or disappointed by how it's going and those moments when he's going to hit, right, when he is overwhelmed, he's in the rapids when he's in the rapids, he can't learn anything new if you can imagine like going white water rafting. Have you ever been whitewater rafting? Can you imagine like it's your first trip down the river, you've fallen out, You're in the rapids. Now, most of us, if you go white water rafting, you get a little crash course before you go about what to do, if you fall out while you're in the rapids, right?
But if that happens when you're in the water like you can't see like there's rocks coming and people on the boat shouting, point your feet down river like it's really hard to be regulated enough to take on their instructions and get, do what you need to do to get through those rapids. You're kiddo when he is in that moment, he's about to hit, he's in the rapids, he's been flung out of the boat, he's thrashing around, He doesn't know what to do. And so if we're telling him, hit the couch cushion instead of your brother, you know, use your words like they're unavailable for that sort of thing.
Right? So we can either teach them skills for how to navigate the rapids of life better. That has to happen before they're in the rapids or afterwards right after they're out in the water is more smooth and calm or better yet. What if we figured out what sent them into the rapids, what caused them to fall out of the boat and solve that problem beforehand proactively. So that rather than, you know, doing the skills teaching of how to navigate the rapids, you're proactively keeping him out of the rapid. Does that make sense?
Stephanie: Yeah, and he, I mean this isn't exactly necessarily what you were just saying, but I will say that he, you know, I mean I'm around, we have a pretty open floor plan, like I can pretty much see, you know what's going on and so like oftentimes I can kind of see it start to escalate boiling up. You will even like pull back to punch and I'm like graham you know and I'll accept it literally will snap about of it and I'm like you know and I can he won't follow through with it and who literally honestly a lot of times say oh sorry you know or whatever and like and be done and he's probably fine or whatever it might be.
And so it's like almost like he just begins something and then if you can kind of catch him right beforehand he'll snap out and he'll stop and he'll immediately apologize like oh sorry or whatever. So it's like catching that at the beginning to has been helpful and then he almost immediately deregulates because our regulates.
Laura: Because he did for fell out of the boat. He's like about to tip out and he gets up, he's back inside, he feels safe and regulated.
Stephanie: But obviously that I can't do that all the time.
Laura: No you can't. And so part of another thing that happens in O. T. Actually is your occupational therapist can help get in their body and be more aware of their body. There's an exercise that my daughter's ot did every because we had a similar scenario and that we did every time we went in was just a simple exercise of just checking in with your body noticing it and any time she, we moved to a new activity, they practice that exercise of checking in. This was R. O. T. Was amazing.
So that's I mean that's an option with this white water rafting analogy. Yes, teaching the skill of like staying in the boat. But also what is it that's making the water rocky all of a sudden? So for example, rather than problem solving like what to do when you're frustrated with your brother, I would love to see you figuring out what is getting him frustrated and problem solve that.
So maybe it's figuring out who's going to use legos when you're both building with legos maybe that I don't know what they, what they get into tumbles over but it and it's parents often want to be really really general like you know, things like working together with your brother to pick up your room or something but you have to be super, that was actually super specific. Tell me one of the things and I'll have, you know, I know tell me one of those common rapids.
Stephanie: So two big things and actually pretty much just kind of said them number one is I think that it is a boundaries, a physical space boundary issue because like he will be all upon people and so like if my one kid is on the couch, you know, this one will come and sit right, pretty much on top of them, you know, and like just be and not to snuggle sweetly, but just like, you know, they're like, oh my gosh, like get away from me.
Laura: That appropriate exception to me.
Stephanie: Well, so that will happen a lot. And so then it's like to them, I feel like he feels like this kid's like kind of pushing on him, you know? And so it's just this whole issue and then I'm like, you have to move to touch your brother. I'm gonna just escalated from there. And then the second thing is kind of what you were saying is that also, you know, if I do have them, you know, hey, you and your brother go clean your room, you and your brother go clean the living room or whatever. We're working on something. It is always always always this child is like not doing. And so then that starts an issue like nobody wants to be like pear
Laura: Doing all the work.
Stephanie: Yeah, I'm here with him to like do something because they're going to have to like do it all or you know what I mean? And then I have to go in, I'm like, okay, step by step and he's a kid that are like crawl and like they're re and stuff and I'm like, like, yeah, this is, I don't know what to do.
Laura: Yeah, there's multiple problems in that little scenario that you just shared. There's multiple problems to solve their, that all combine likely send him down the rapids, right? So there is working together with a sibling, there is cleaning up. What does cleaning up I mean, you know, so and when navigating like when in the schedule that that happens, what was he doing before? What does he is he going to be doing after?
There's lots of things that go into picking up a playroom or picking up a bedroom and having to do it with a sibling. Navigating it with a sibling to there's lots of complications. We were, you know, to sit down and really like you describe really, really in detail what your expectations are for him. Like in these moments there's probably like four or five problems to be solved there.
Stephanie: Try to like, so like if I said, first of all, there's like hardly anything in the room. Okay, clothes, bedding. They have a little box of like a little box of toys and then they basically just have a toy box with like dress up like closets. There's the room is not a room that can get very messy because there's just not a lot in there. I did that on purpose so into when I send them in, typically I'll like look at the room and I'm like okay, you clean up the closing the books, you clean up the shoes and the toys. That's it. So that way there isn't this like
Laura: yeah, yeah.
Stephanie: like what am I going to do, what are you going to do? But then it's like this kid does all the stuff that they needed to do, so I let them be done and then it's just an issue.
Laura: so and then the problem solving conversation is, hey buddy, I've been noticing you've been having a really tough time and getting your dress up clothes into the bin when it's time to clean up what's up and you solve that problem and just go there with him to figure out like what his concerns are. Well once I get into my room, my brother's there and that's really distracting and I just want to play or once I start looking at the dress up clothes.
I wanna, it makes me think of a game I want to play, you know, and so then I put what some on and I mean to pick them up by, you know, then I put them on and then I'm playing a game okay, so you get distracted, you want to play with them. So you really are understanding like, and that makes sense. That would be hard. Okay. Is there anything else that makes it hard about, you know, getting the dress up clothes put away? Well, you know, sometimes there in the corner and that's where our brother is putting away books and then I can't get to them and so I just have to wait until he's done or I'm like pulling at straws here because I don't know your scenario, but there's lots of, it's amazing the concerns that kids have the things that get in their way.
And so that's what we're doing, thinking about and doing this problem solving, which is fully described in Ross Green's book, the explosive child and you know, in which I highly recommend it was so helpful for me, but we're trying to understand the kid's perspective and what's getting in the way and how we can set them up for success. But in this first part of it, we are not solving the problem. We're just listening to all of the problems that come with needing to put dress up clothes away and they've been in the room when they and their brother are cleaning up the room, you know, like there's these specific scenarios and then you can ask like, okay, so on days when we ask you to put a way the dress up clothes and your brother isn't in the room, is there anything that's hard about that?
You know, Is there anything that's hard about your brother being there? You know? And so you're just getting really specific, like really granular details from him where you're pulling it out and then you ask him to prioritize all of his concerns, you know, so you are taking notes while you're having this conversation. Like, I mean, these are, you know, formal things, they can be, you know, where you're sitting down. Like daughter likes to have a cup of cocoa and my other daughter likes to have fruit snacks that we don't have very often to keep her focused when we're doing news and I take notes.
I have a notebook out. I'm writing them down and then you like you have them, you list out the thing. So like maybe it's, I get distracted. I start dressing up and I start playing a game and then, I get tired. It's hard to get them from because the brother is in the way like you list them out which one of those makes it hardest to put the clothes away. And maybe they'll say like I see the clothes and I want to start playing a game okay.
All right. So, and then you go in and you tell them you're concerned. Right? So the next step is to say, okay. So my concern, you know with putting the clothes away is, and what is your primary concern with getting dressed up clothes put away?
Stephanie: Typically just to have them like clean their room. We do it multiple times a day where we just do like two minute cleans. There's six of us in here. And so I just, well multiple times a day just say, okay, like quick two minute clean. Like let's do all this. We'll put it like a song on that we all like and you know, see how much we can get done in three minutes or whatever and all of its really respond to that or we'll do.
I think we even like think you even said that it's like okay, are you do everything red or you everything this yeah, really specific about what they're doing just so that our house doesn't get out of control. But it just typically the other kids really respond well to like hustling kind of like for those two minutes, this one this one, it's like and then the song is over and he's picked up one shoe and it's like they've cleaned full complete rooms and I'm like.
Laura: okay, let's not compare, right? Because this could have different scope. This could have different things getting in his way, right? So you don't have those things getting in their way.
Stephanie: But my question with this is to like is that my other kids see this, right? And so my other kids will say like granted I keep saying that, but my kid didn't, you know this kid didn't do anything. And the truth is, I mean, they may have picked up a shoe, may have not like, you know what I mean? And so they feel like they're kind of like having to carry the weight which in and of itself whatever, but at the same time, I feel like this is what is causing just this like gradual disconnect between some of my Children because it's like it's not, it's when we're playing, he gets too rough.
It's when we're sitting and just chilling, he's all up on me when he, when he gets mad, he punches me when we have to do work together, he doesn't do part of it. And so it's like, it's just, I feel like underlying li it's like making this just disconnect between my kids and I can see that. And so that is where I'm like, I want him to pull his weight or whatever it might look like or be obviously respectful within the space of his brothers because I don't want his brothers to have that resentment. You know what I mean?
Laura: You don't you don't want them to resent him,
Stephanie: Right? So I'm like, how do I balance him being his own self? But at the same time, like, I don't know why, don't you know what the question? I don't even know the question I have
Laura: No, I completely understand this because it doesn't feel fair or equitable and you, you know, and you don't want the relationship there long term sibling relationship to be damaged by this
Stephanie: And I don't want to necessarily, I mean, and again, I know expectation wise, all kids are going to need something different, but I also don't want to lower my expectations of him because I feel like he needs it. Like, I don't know whether I feel like there's a line and I don't know if I'm walking it well based on like, you know, I don't think all of my kids need straight a pluses in school, but at the same time, like there has to be an expectation there. And it's really interesting.
My husband's amazing. He's very supportive of like any kind of parenting thing that we're doing. We did the whole love and logic thing. He's reading whole brainchild with me. Like, you know, so he's very into like whatever I feel like this kid needs, he's very into learning alongside of me. However, I will say that when he will come up and he he comes and yells and it's crazy. He will just say, hey, you need to go do this and then that kid will go do it.
And so I mean, I'm a stay at home mom. I'm here with him all the time. I know that probably we have different dynamics in general. My husband and this kid have a great relationship to my lowering my expectations of this kid. You know what I mean? Where my husband still is holding like why is there a difference there? I mean there's gonna be difference between parents, but I just don't know what this line is. If I'm crossing and if I'm being too easy, if I'm being too like, let's talk this out.
Laura: Yeah So I mean, clearly delivered expectation can always be really, really helpful. And you know, if you have four kids that you're delivering expectations to all at once. You know, and sometimes even more because I know you got foster kids sometimes two versus when your husband comes in and just this one to this one kid has, is able to give the full attention to giving an expectation a limit a boundary and then holding it, of course the kid is gonna respond differently to that.
You know, when they are full focuses on a kid and they know they can trust us to hold whatever boundary it is that, you know, if we're saying, you know, it's, it's time to clean, you know, to put the dress of clothes in the bin and I'm going to stay here, you know, help make sure it gets done like that's different than saying okay buddy. Like it's time to put the dress of clothes in the bin and then walking off to go through various other cleanup that's happening. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying that that's what you're doing, but I'm just saying.
Stephanie: I think that just as you were saying that and as I was saying that out loud and thinking like the other thing is that my husband, he works from home, but he works like a full day, you know, whatever the kids can come down and like build legos by him, but he's pretty much working and so when he, I feel like he um when he's trying to discipline or just instruct them to do something or ask them to do something, it happens less because he's not in there all the time.
And so I feel like he has the ability to be more consistent because you know, when you're only asking someone kids to do something X amount of times a day, but when I'm with them from eight a.m. Until whatever, I'm asking them 150 times and so I'm not consistent all the 150 times. So I feel like.
Laura: and it's deluded.
Stephanie: Yeah. You know, for me to be inconsistent because I do it so often where he can come in and be pretty consistent with the times that he needs to be.
Laura: Yeah, 100%. So perhaps a possible lesson is to give you our commands or requests. And there's actually research on that that when parents reduce the requests they make of their Children, intentionally reduce them by 50%. That compliance rates go up. It doesn't mean that means we're letting our kids walk all over us. It's just really noticing. Like, do I actually need to tell them to do this right now?
Or is this, you know, like, you know, put your shoes on the rug, you know, move that glass back from the edge of the table, like, you know, oh your napkins on the floor. Like, you know, like all of these little things that we Sprinkle in. Yeah. Just bringing awareness and aiming to reduce those actually increases compliance rates for kids. So that's just something out to put out there that you're so right on that. But I mean, I do think that there is room for kids who are differently wired or different, you know, have different abilities and skill levels to have different expectations placed on them.
You're a special education teacher, right? So we know that individualized instruction is what works best, right? And so you have a classroom with kids with different levels of skills and abilities, right? And so it doesn't mean having no expectations for your child, but having, you know, figuring out what he can do on his own, what he can do with support and finding that balance is something that perhaps he needs. So in terms of like setting him up for success, if you have the sense of and setting up the sibling relationship for success too.
So if you have the sense of like, if I send them into the living room to pick up the living room together, one is going to do all of the work and this other one is going to kind of goof around, you know, in quotes and not do anything and that's going to endanger the relationship. The one kid is going to feel resentful, the other kid is going to feel incompetent, probably like they are not good enough because they're not doing what their brother is and it's going to jeopardize their relationship.
Then perhaps we adjust that expectation and that kiddo in order to protect the sibling relationship and each child's emotional experience and sense of self, maybe that kiddo gets different tasks on his own in rooms where others aren't. So that that comparison can't happen and where you are available to give more support, more scaffolding to that kiddo, I don't know that the set up of your house and all of those things, but there might be possibilities so that he can have an opportunity to feel successful and competent and not in competition with his brothers too. You know.
Stephanie: When I think you just with the pandemic, I think a lot of people who experienced this, I mean, whether or not you chose to homeschool this following year now or we were just home last year, you know, all of a sudden, there always together, you know,
Laura: They need breaks too.
Stephanie: yeah, there's no separation. You know, there's no nothing in my house right now is it's a ranch and it's literally just like kitchen, living room, dining room is all open in a hallway with four bedrooms. So it's like, there's not a ton of places to just go. And so I feel like they don't have that break. And so then, you know, it's just whatever.
But I have been very intentional about like this morning, I called one of my oldest over to do like our home school work, but then I realized that like him and this child who typically have probably the roughest their relationship still fine, but the roughest kind of relationship, they were like snuggled good on the couch, like doing something or playing something, whatever.
And I just like backed off like, you know what school can wait because there's something positive. And I've like tried to my husband, I was, I was telling him like, I feel like we need to facilitate them to specifically where I feel like there's the most friction to go do something fun just together with maybe their dad, you know, to just do whatever just so that they can start to have fun together again. And it's not just this like always negative.
Laura: See Stephanie, this is a perfect example of how you are the perfect mom. You're so why is your intuition is so on point? You saw what your kids needed and you held yourself back, you let go of your agenda to prioritize their relationships. That's beautiful. Oh my gosh, that's beautiful.
Stephanie: I love to see it because I just feel like it's not as common as I would want to, but I think that I'm just being like creating fun for them, even just specifically with kids, which is really important for us. I feel like because we have such a big family that my husband takes them out on, like, you know, one on one dates will go out on like one on what dates with me.
Like have this one on one time. But then also I think that we just also need to do that with their brothers and then kind of the last thing, I don't know, I probably could talk to you forever. But the last thing I don't know if you can speak into for him is just this or like, just even like tools or whatever to help with him. It's just very negative in her self talk and I'm somebody who, I'm all about affirmations.
My kids do affirmations, like almost every day, they are whatever. But he is somebody where he'll just be playing and we'll get up and walk to me and say, mom, I really am bad at football. He just started black football. He's like, I'm just really bad at football. I suck at that. I'm not good at that. Like, and it's just that I'm so bad at putting my shoes. Like, it's just so negative. And I'm like, man, where is this coming from? You know.
Laura: I want to offer you a reframe here in your awareness. So we know that we have about 60,000 thoughts a day and that we're only conscious, of you know a few 100 of them. right? So most of us have all of these negative stories about ourselves habitual thought patterns, just running through the back of our brain. He's aware of them. He knows that there there, that's something you've done, you've helped him understand that he can choose his thoughts because you're using affirmations.
You've helped him be aware of his thinking and he is verbalizing them to you. So, this is a huge win. All right. This is not a bad thing. Okay. All people have negative thoughts about themselves most of the time. They just operate in the background and were not aware of them and we just feel like crap without any awareness that we're thinking or saying these things to ourselves. He's aware of it. He knows the story is there seriously. And so when we know a story is there, then we can work with it. Like when we know a thought is present, like then we can start working with it. So this is all good stuff. Okay. I just want to reassure you.
Stephanie: It's not really my goodness.
Laura: No, but no, this is a good thing. He's aware of it. He's bringing it to you. He is clearly asking for help with those thoughts, right? So, and this is further evidence that you're the exact mom that he needs. Thank heavens he's in a home where he's learning how to work with his thoughts from his parents. It was beautiful. He's so lucky. Okay. Does he know about in our coach and your inner critic does he know those terms?
Stephanie: He does not know those terms. But we and probably I think that I coach more on like, like the information we do obviously like positive. They're really aligned with the fruits of the spirit just in general or like things that they're struggling with. I've turned them into affirmations? But I don't we don't typically talk so this is probably where my where I need to work with. But I would simply we'll have them say that like the positive things. But when he'll come to me and like say negative things like buddy, you're not bad at football. Like you know, we're kind of like talking through it instead of I don't even know what I mean. What should I?
Laura: Yeah. Okay. So when he comes to you with those thoughts first you want to empathize and validate right? You've been thinking about football home and you're worried you're not very good at it. Okay so you've been thinking about that a lot. Huh? He'll probably tell you some more. Yeah. And you're worried that you're not good at it. Like how do you know whether you're good? So then you get curious right? So you validate and empathize and then you get curious and in this way you're teaching him how to work with his thoughts.
Okay. So you get curious how do you know if you're good five Football or Not? You know saying like oh I missed a throw and stuff. Okay. Yeah. So did you ever make any, well yeah, I made some. Okay. And like how long have you been playing? Like when did you start? Uh huh And the people that you're comparing it against yourself? Like when did they start? Oh they've been doing it for a couple of years Okay. Does it make sense? They would be able to catch more passes or run faster?
Oh yeah, that makes sense. They've been practicing longer. Okay. Like how does a person get good at football? You know? So we're just chatting, you know and you would be letting him lead, you know because this is a one sided conversation right now. It's kind of awkward but you're just getting curious about it like uh okay, but only after you've empathized and validated, right? So if we go straight to changing it, they just feel invalidated and like they're not being accepted how they are, right? So we got to validate and empathize first.
Like really like that's an uncomfortable feeling, isn't it? Nobody likes feeling like they're bad at something, you know, just really sit with them and then do the curious thing and then start thinking about like, okay, is it actually true? Now you're bad football? Like is that actually true? Right. What would he say?
Stephanie: He would probably say? I don't know. And I think he compares himself a lot to his older brothers you see in the pentagon right? And I think it's a pretty familiar narrative that like, you know the first born child is the quote unquote angel child is
Laura: The golden boy.
Stephanie: right? So it's like I don't want to I mean I'm sure there's gonna be some level of that, but like I just don't want him to be comparing himself to his nine year old brother, you know what I mean? Like that's really not, whatever, but he, when they're out there playing, they're catching every throw and he's not. And so I think it immediately makes him, he doesn't see the age gap or the ability gap, right? Like I feel like he just sees his brothers and he wants to be able to catch like they do.
Laura: So it might even be helpful to bring their brother over and be like, hey, hey buddy, come here, come here. When you first started like football, like your brother just started like, did you catch every pass? What would your oldest kids say? You would probably say
Stephanie: he would say no, no, I dropped a lot.
Laura: Yeah. You know, this is about fact checking, right? We, our brains have like this negativity bias where they gloss over lots of facts to prioritize a point of view or a truth that we've decided as true, right? And so bringing in other information can help us broaden our perspective a little bit.
And doing this with him, teaches him this invaluable skill that he can use for the rest of his life because negative thoughts about yourself, negative stories are not going to go away, They're always going to be there, You just have to learn to work with them. Um, so another book that I do like that kind of teaches this topic is called The girl who never made mistakes. It's a lovely that is a lovely book and then sam and the negative voice if he likes having books read to him or reading books on his own. I did I even ask how old he is.
Stephanie: No, it's ok. He just turned by five.
Laura: Yeah. So those are two great books that likely isn't reading yet, but I would love to have read to him. They're lovely books. But that thought work piece that kind of validating and then getting curious and really evaluating and then deciding like so that's his inner critic talking to him and you can call it that we all have an inner critic and and in our coach then our critic is the person who kind of tells us that we're bad at things that we aren't doing something right?
And our inner coaches, another voice that's in our head that tells us what we need to do to improve or, you know, kind of builds us up, we can choose which one we're listening to and what one says, you know, he's not too young to learn about his and our critic and his and our coach. And so then when you start asking these questions and then after you were done with the curiosity phase, you can say like, okay, so that was your inner critic talking to you, wasn't it?
When your inner critic kind of put that thought in your head, you're bad at football? Yeah. All right. So now we've been talking, what do you think? Like, your inner coach can say to your inner critic next time it starts talking to you and then come up with some phrases to have and there you go. There's your affirmations. I mean, that's what affirmations are as cultivating a kind and compassionate in our coach, right?
Stephanie: That's great because I feel like I'm good at like I'll turn that into an affirmation. So I'm good at like I feel like taking negative thoughts and for myself or even for some of my kids and turning them into an information. But I think I'm missing the whole process of saying like the validating and the compassion because a lot of times my first reaction is like, you're not going to football, like what do you mean? You just started you know, like this whole reasoning,
Laura: Yeah.
Stephanie: You know, you're only five your this is your first season, you've had one practice. Like I start to like go through that in my head and he's probably like, I don't that's fine. I feel like I'm
Laura: Yeah, you got to sit with him in the in the stew for just a little bit, just stay with him just right beside him, but just for a little bit and then teach him how to build his own affirmations and affirmations work best when they're believable too.
So we're going from like, I'm terrible at football. We can't jump all the way up to like, I'm a football rock star and I'm going to play professionally if I want to, like, that's just not believable. So, and like something along those lines that would be more believable would be like, I'm new to football and I'm learning and I get better every day. You know, that kind of growth mindset piece of things, make it believable. But yeah, you gotta, you gotta get an empathy for just a little bit, even though of course, our mama hearts are like, no, you're wonderful.
Stephanie: You know, there.
Laura: Yeah, this is actually something that is very common for kids in the five year old range when they're, what they want to be able to do is outstripped by their abilities. It is crushing and frustrating. We see this a lot with kids who in their drawings and as they are learning to write letters because they simply don't have the hand strength to do with their body what they want to be able to do.
They know they can picture in their heads, they started to be able to have they have this new cognitive ability to make clear pictures in their minds and then they can't make reality look like the picture of the catching the football or the drawing of something specific and it's really, really frustrating for them because they're older kids who are 678.
They know that they can have a picture in their mind that likely isn't going to be exactly like that way in reality, but five year olds are still new to being able to picture something in their mind That they haven't figured out yet that like it's not going to look just like what I pictured in my head, you know?
Stephanie: Yeah.
Laura: Experience and practice.
Stephanie: Yes. Yeah.
Laura: Okay, so Stephanie, I hope that was helpful for you.
Stephanie: It was very helpful.
Laura: Okay. Good.
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