Episode 207: Navigating Tween Years: Shifting Parental Roles and Support with JoAnn Schauf
/In this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, I am joined by tween expert JoAnn Schauf, founder of Your Tween and You and the author of the best-selling book Loving the Alien: How to Parent Your Tween. Together, we’ll explore how parenting roles evolve as children transition from late childhood to the tween years.
Here are the topics we covered:
“Tween" years and the significance of defining and understanding this transitional stage
Unique qualities of developing tweens
Adapting empathy, expectations, and communication skills as children tween-dom
Understanding how tweens still need parental support and guidance
Repairing and reconnecting with tweens after mistakes
Four skills needed for effective communication
Identifying tween and teen body language cues for emotional readiness
Managing the temptation to intervene and practicing self-restraint as a parent
If you want to connect with JoAnn, visit her website at yourtweenandyou.com. Follow her on Facebook @yourtween&you, Instagram @yourtweenandyou, and Twitter @yourtweenandyou.
Resources:
Remember, parenting through this transitional stage requires flexibility, empathy, and open communication.
I would love to hear from you! If you have any questions you’d like to have answered on the podcast or any takeaways or wins you’d like to share you can leave me a message here: https://www.speakpipe.com/laurafroyenphd
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen. And on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent podcast, we are going to be talking about tweens. We're gonna be talking about your role as a parent, as your child moves from those later childhood years into those Tween years. And how that role shifts and changes some critical, you know, differences. You're going to have to update your role with. And to help me with this conversation, I'm so glad to be talking with JoAnn Schauf. She is a Tween expert, the founder of your Tween and you, an online forum for supporting parents and caregivers with their tweens and the author of a book, Loving The Alien: How To parent your Tween. So Joanne, I've been enjoying your book, but I hope you will tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do and then we'll talk in and um we'll dive into talking about the shift in our parental role as we are parenting teams.
JoAnn: Hey, good morning, Laura and everybody listening. It's so nice to be here. I really appreciate getting to be with you this morning or this afternoon or this evening, whenever you're listening, whenever you're listening. And when I my, my role and my goal is always to empower parents to be the best parent that they can. And we're, we're all on this learning curve of trying to figure out what's the best way to interact with my child. How can I inspire them? How can I empower them to be the best that they could possibly be and not have them feel badly or feel guilty or get involved in any of those emotions that aren't helpful for them. And so I started out as a psychologist in a psychiatric hospital. And then I was a school counselor in middle school, high school and colleges. But there was a point where there were so many parents in my office just pulling out their hair trying to figure out what to do with their middle school child because they were behaving so differently than they had before. And they loved this child tremendously, but they really needed some help for doing that. And so that moved me, motivated me to stop that job and open this business year between you. So it's been a great ride and so fun to empower parents through speaking through coaching with them and, and now the book. So it's, it's just been a really great ride.
Laura: I'm always so excited to find a resource for these kids who are in the middle. I feel like we have great resources for our littles and our elementary school age kids, the younger ones, you know, 3,4 5 6, even 7. Once they move into the eights, the nines and the tens, there's not a lot out there for parents who are going through that transition. The information picks up again in the teen years at 15,16 or so. But like there's this big empty space where there's not a lot of guidance for parents. So I'm always so excited to have new resources coming across my desk so that I can share them with my family. So I appreciate you seeing that need too. I have a kind of a question that is a little, no, it's in scope. I want to define what we're talking about here. So when we say the word Tween, what do we mean? Because I'm thinking back to my Tween. That word was not a word like that at all like that. I don't remember ever self identifying as a Tween and as a mom to two, I guess tweens a nine year old and an almost 12 year old. My 12 year old very much identifies herself as a Tween. She kind of likes that title for herself, but that was nowhere for me in the eighties and nineties. I'm kind of curious, like, what are we talking about? Where did that come from? Do you find it helpful as a label? Tell, can we talk just about the word Tween for a second.
JoAnn: Sure. So, for you are exactly right. Laura, there wasn't an identifier for those kids that were between nine and 13 or 10 and 13 because there was no identification of their unique needs or their personhood, even though it's such a big transition. So it came about just recently, like in the last 20 years or so. And oftentimes, what I like about it is it gives them an identity, it gives them a place and even though it's a quirky place, it's a place where they belong where they all fit in at one time. I had a teacher, that came to me and I was asking her how it was going with their class and she goes, you know, this class is really great because they're all misfits. None of them know who they are, none of them understand what's going on. They're all working hard, they all wanna fit in, but they just don't know how to do it yet. And I thought she's really understanding the kids that she's teaching and those are the, those are the children that are in our house. Those are the ones that were raising us and they need us to lead the way for them because like I said, they just unfortunately don't know what they're doing.
Laura: Yeah, they don't, you know, whenever a kid is in a tricky phase of development, I always find it helpful to help my, the parents that I'm working with find a way to just marvel at them as opposed to kind of like a rant about what's happening? What are some of the things about tweens that you just think are fabulous. What makes you love tweens? What makes you like, man, these guys, these guys are amazing, like what they're going through.
JoAnn: One of the things that I find really exciting for them is when they start sixth grade, most of them have never played a musical instrument and they, they, if they take band, they become so great at this, playing these instruments in one year. It's just amazing. And that's so great for their sense of self, for their identity, for their learning a new skill. And it's just amazing how they can pick that up so quickly. And I just marvel at it. I just absolutely marvel at their abilities and the progress that they make. One of the other things I really marvel about them is their ability to think changes so much, even though they will make some really crazy choices when they start to think logically and they start arguing with their parents and they start speaking up for themselves. Having that voice is a really powerful thing and I love watching that grow.
Laura: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. You know, as a parent of kiddos who have never shied away from sharing their opinions or their perspectives with me. I am looking forward to those perspectives and opinions being more rooted and like more complex thinking processes, right? Abstract thinking is what starts coming online during this period. Really skillful, skillful perspective taking starts coming online in the early part of the tweens. I mean, it's a fun time to be thinking about what's happening in their brain.
JoAnn: It really is. And, you know, I call it the trio of trials and the trio of trials is the, looking for their identity, figuring out who they like, what they like, what they believe, who they're attracted to sexually, how hard they're gonna work at school. What kind of clothes are they gonna wear? Those are all really big things in figuring out who they are because we all, we all have to figure who we're going to be when we grow. But this is the age where they really start thinking about it and trying to identify with certain peers. And then the next thing of course is puberty, which is the huge thing that everybody always says, oh, you know, they've just got these raging hormones and I hate to hear that because it's not like a choice that they've made to have all these chemicals come into their body. And then the third one is really a lot about their brain, their prefrontal cortex. It doesn't always make good decisions like you might ask your child, you know, it was snowing outside. Why did you wear thongs to school or why did you wear flip flops to school? And they'll be like, I don't know, they don't have a good reason for it. So there's all those things going on, those three trials. And we, as parents, really get to understand that all the things that are going on they can't be blamed for, but they do, like you say, need to be odd and wonder and help me understand and then all the things that the child will feel that they're accepted. They're listening, listening to, they're heard by their parents.
Laura: Yeah, I can, I can hear you advocating for us to have some compassion for these kiddos too for just what they're going through. It's a wild ride for us but it's also a wild ride for them, right?
JoAnn: And not only compassion, Laura, but a lot of empathy, you know, empathy. So a child comes home from, you know, their friend's birthday party and says all the other girls were in a room and they weren't talking to me. And so and this happens, this just happens unfortunately. And so the parents' response needs to be, oh my gosh. That must have been really hard for you. Oh my gosh, you must have felt so alone. Oh my gosh, you weren't expecting that to happen. Those are all words of empathy. So a lot of times we want to fix the problem but if we're empathetic first with our kids. They will, they will feel that they will feel understood by us and that's such a valuable thing for parents to get to do for their children.
Laura: Yeah, I think it too, it's important for that empathy to extend to uh times when they are, when we're kind of experiencing them as difficult or defiant or oppositional, right? Like it's important to, you know, cultivate that empathy muscle, right? So that it's accessible to us in all of those moments. And, you know, one thing I'm thinking about for myself and not just to kind of center us on this topic of our parental role shifting and changing. One thing that I have needed to remind myself as my kids make this transition is, or I guess, not remind myself, but I've noticed about myself is that what came easy for me in toddlerhood and in the early elementary ages that that amount of empathy, that amount of compassion, the ability to kind of just tap into, you know, grace and, and offer that to my kids, has gone down as I perceive them getting older as I have some idea in my mind that they should know better, you know, that that awful word should, you know, that they should know better, they should be able to do better by now because I see them being so competent, so much more competent, so much, you know, they've grown so much their skills have grown up so high.
And so I've had to be really kind of on top of myself reminding myself like this is their first time ever being nine. This is their first time ever being 10. You know, they're figuring it out, but it's, it's been a, like, that's a piece of it. That is hard for me. Are there other, like, what are some of the ways that as parents, we just need to be aware of as they're moving into this, this age as there are? Maybe, you know, some of my listeners have younger kids. So maybe they're seven and eight, they're approaching this chain to start looking out for or maybe we've got some listeners who are right in there with us. What are some of the ways our role as parents changes as our kids move into this Tween phase?
JoAnn: One of the things that so many parents have been burdened with and feel sad about in a way is their role because when they were very involved with their children in elementary school, maybe they were good friends with the teachers or on one of the boards or in PTA or they had a definite role as a parent in that school and also they had a community of other parents with them and they were all together raising these children and providing programs and all this kind of stuff. But then when you switch to middle school, that room mother role that voluntary net school changes significantly. There are no room moms in middle school. And so when, when all that changes, plus their child's changing, we have to really be mindful to help moms to realize, hey, your role as a mom is still 100% valuable.
It just looks different than it did before, different than it was before. And I think we have to really support them because I remember when my kids did that and I was like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm not, I'm not the PTA president, I'm not on the board that decides a lot of different things. And I'm like, how am I going to interact? How am I gonna find my new crew at school and how am I going to really understand all the changes that my kids are going through because they were vast, but they're, they're happening. And so being prepared mentally and emotionally for that is really an important thing to think about.
Laura: Okay, so there's this one, there's in one area, there's this shift from the way in which we have access to our kids lives. There's a shift in how much access our kids want us to have to their lives and we kind of have to be prepared for that and come to grips with it. And as you were talking, I was thinking about a camping trip, I went on with my kids class recently. So my kids go to a little bit of an alternative school. They go on camping trips once or twice a year as a class and I was chaperoning. And if I had take, if I'd been on this camping trip last year with my child, she's my nine year old. At the campfire. Anytime she would have been on my lap, she would have been snuggled up next to me. And on this trip she want she was off with her friends around the campfire. She was snuggled up with them. She, you know, was not right next to me the way she would have been even a year ago. And I gotta tell you, I had some feels in my mama heart about that. I didn't talk about them out loud to her. I didn't express them to her or I let that change my behavior on the outside at all. But, oh, there was a little like, oh, she's pulling away. There's a little twinge, you know.
JoAnn: Right. Yeah. And the, the thing is that, that is normal for them to pull away and it's good. Yeah, we need them to do that. We want them, they're, they're gonna differentiate from us. They're going to find out who they are and they're gonna grow up and be different people. And the initial stages of that happening, it is hurtful for our hearts. We're like, hey, I used to be number one with you and now I'm, I'm further down the rung.
Laura: Yeah, I mean, and, and not, not necessarily hurtful but just, like, like, I don't know if I was ready for that. I kind of thought you'd always want to be sitting on my lap, you know, like, just kind of, some of, it's a surprise. I like the invitation to kind of be prepared for that, that pulling away and I think there's room for honoring any feelings that arise in the midst of that. And then also being very aware of the fact that we don't have to let those feelings out onto our kids. I really, there was a section in your book that I really appreciated where you were talking about the skills kind of that we need to develop effective communication with our tweens. And there is this one part where you were very clear around the importance of emotional literacy, that emotional regulation is a critical communication skill and that you need to be aware of your emotions and you need to be able to regulate your emotions so that you're not leaking them all over your team and muddying the waters. And I feel like that's something that I really appreciated.
Can we, can we talk a little bit about some of those? Okay. No, I'm going too many directions. Sometimes this happens to me. I have ADHD and like my brain kind of pings around sometimes So I do want to talk about communication. Can we talk first circle back to what are some of the other ways our role as parents shifts, as kids enter the Tween years?
JoAnn: One of the other things that happens is their need for us changes because like you say, they are doing all these things for themselves that they didn't, they didn't used to do, they can, you know, make their own microwave popcorn, they can even make their own mac and cheese. And so that need changes very much and, and sometimes we feel like, and what, what is our need, what is our place, how do we fit ourselves into them? Because then it becomes a situation where we have to find ways to fit ourselves with our kids. We need to create opportunities with things that they like to do. If there's a show that they really like sit down and stream and binge it with them. If they are as a fan of a certain team, watch those games with them, even let them show you how to play their video game because what you want is that connection and any, all the ways that you can think of doing that are gonna make a big difference.
Laura: I love that, you know, a lot of the listeners in this community followed RIEas they were growing up as the kids were little, RIE stands for resources for infant educarers and it is a, an approach to parenting with deep respect for children. And a big part of that philosophy is making sure that caregiving times are packed with connection and something that I've noticed as my kids are moving out of the kind of the early childhood phase is that, that is much harder to do. Right. So in those early years, any caregiving time, you know, we really amped up the connection during those times. So no phones during feeding, fully present during bath time, you know, all of those things, but now they're bathing by themselves, they're being dressed by themselves. They are making their own food and snacks half the time. You know, like the, the opportunities for providing love and connection through caregiving are fewer and farther between. So my husband and I have definitely had to update our kind of what connection looks like for us now, you know, with these kids who don't need us in the same way. Right. They still need us. They don't need us in the same way.
JoAnn: They don't. And I think one of the things that is sometimes really difficult is our tweens will go into their room and hibernate. You know, that's their sacred space, that's their sacred space. That's where they can do nothing or be on their phone or do their homework. And, but oftentimes we look at that door as a barrier to communicating with them. And so I don't look at it that way. I just look at it as like an invisible force. Even if they have all those signs, stay out, go away. I don't want you here, which I've seen many kids doors and my kids, my kids included. But when we sit up at that door and say, hey, I'm gonna come in for a few minutes. Do you want me to sit on your bed or on the chair? So that's an acceptable statement you're there's you're assuming that you're going to go in and then when we don't go in with an agenda like we often want to say, okay, grandma's coming tomorrow, your room's a mess. I need you to have it picked up right after you get home from school. She's gonna get there at six o'clock. And so we go in with a big agenda and our kids are just like looking at us with that look on the look that we have on our face and they're like, oh my God, what's it gonna be this time? And so when we go in just to visit without an agenda that welcomes nature that they will put out the welcome mat that they'll have for us will be very different because you're just going to say hi. I live with this and it makes a big difference. Yeah.
Laura: Yeah. Okay. So what, what ways do our tweens still need us? What do they need us as parents?
JoAnn: For, oh my gosh, they need all the emotional support because, you know, their emotions are kind of helter skelter. So they definitely need that emotional support. And of course, they're going to need the ride to school and the support. And one of the things they also need us for is to help set expectations. When we talk about school performance, for example, it's still the beginning of the year. It's early enough to say, let's talk about what kind of grades you want to earn in each class. And so when they say those, because oftentimes, well, they'll say, oh, I'm gonna pass, I'm gonna do well, don't worry, but that's a very broad target and kids do better precise targets. So if you talk about what this is gonna look like, what kind of grade are you going to get in math and science and social studies? Because most of us have children that are good at certain subjects and not so great at others. And so when we accept that, hey mom, I can, I can work really hard in my language, arts class and get an 82.
But you know, I'm really smart in math and I'll be able to get a 95 in math. So when we accept that their strengths lie in certain areas and we say, okay, those are great goals to go school followed up with, okay, what do you, what do you need to do to do? That. And when we let our kids voice what they're gonna do, how they're gonna do their homework, how they're gonna turn it in on time. What kind of homework looks like? Then that voice that they have makes it so powerful for things to happen in their mind, in their emotional ability and their intellectual ability and their decisions. Because when we come on top and say, okay, school started, you're gonna do this and you're gonna do this and you're gonna do that and you're gonna do this. Most tweens and adolescents will just like, oh no, no, no, no. Here she comes again with another set of rules. So if we switch that to letting them be the decision makers in this very powerful way for them, when we talk, when we talk about building confidence and building that sense of self and building that resilience. It makes a huge difference in them having that say in their life because that's what they want.
Laura: Absolutely. I'm, you know, thinking too much about this drive for figuring out who they are, their sense of self and their identity. And if we come in with this top down perspective, giving them like you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that. There's no option for them but to push back and say no, I'm not because of where they are developmentally. They like them, there is no other option because they don't want to be defined by us, they want to be defined by themselves. They want to have a chance to try new things on, you know, different personalities, different, you know, groups that they are going to hang out with, they want to have a chance to figure out who they are for themselves.
JoAnn: Yeah. And I, you know, before this started, Laura and I were talking about conflicts and how to manage conflicts with our kids when we're the ones that blow it. And this is a perfect example of apologizing. And I think when we have the humility to apologize to our child, oh my gosh, I came on so strong with you. I think you were embarrassed and I felt bad and I'm just wondering if we could get a redo if we could have that conversation over again or even going into asking for forgiveness if it's something that, that, that needs to happen. But these things really help kids realize that something happened, but that's not the final paint job. You get to add more pain or erase.
Laura: I like that analogy. Yeah, and I like that. We're talking about the repair first, the fact that we're going to make mistakes first. Especially so, you know, a lot of us parents can be a little bit perfectionistic when it comes to this stuff. Most of us who are listening to parenting podcasts and reading parenting books really want to get this right. We perhaps have our own experiences growing up that we don't want to replicate and we really know how important parents are. And so we want to get it right. And I think that that can lead to a sense of like, gosh, I gotta do everything right, you know, I gotta get this perfect.
So before we get into the kind of like these are the skills you need to build, you know, to have effective communication with your team, it is really great that you're offering this opportunity to recognize like, and you can learn all these skills you want and you will make mistakes, words will fall out of your mouth and you'll have to wind them back in, you know, you'll have to make up with your kids and repair with them. Hopefully we've been doing that with our kids this whole way, you know, all along. It won't be anything new but the mistakes will be new because the kids are new, right? They're new every year when they grow. I appreciate that a lot. Are there other things that are helpful when it comes to repairing and reconnecting with our tweens that are different from the littler ones that we need to know about when we screw things up?
JoAnn: Well, I think one of the things that happens sometimes is we just jump into problem solving, you know, something will happen, something hasn't worked out well, maybe they didn't turn in some work and then they have they're not gonna get credit for it. And so instead of saying to your child, gosh, you know, this is unfortunate. What do you, what do you, what can you do? Because what we wanna say is like, what were you thinking? How could you not do that? You spend all that time? That's not working on it and then you didn't turn it in, this doesn't make any sense and that's what we wanna say, right? But that's not what we're gonna say because when we talk about emotional regulation, we have to hold it together so that they can make choices that are gonna be good for them. And when we say they make the choice, that means they're taking the action, we're not fixing it and we wanna fix it. Sometimes we wanna fix it badly, but that's not really helpful for them.
Laura: Why isn't it helpful for them if we rush in to fix things for them?
JoAnn: Well, because they are all about learning, we want to launch children that can or adults that can solve their own problems. The only way that they're going to learn to solve their problems is if they have the opportunity to do it right?
Laura: If they're allowed to own them and take accountability and yeah.
JoAnn: Yeah. So when they don't turn that in and maybe they were absent, you know, maybe something happened. So we say, what can you do?" And sometimes our child will say there's nothing, there's no option. If you don't turn it in after four days, there's nothing you can do. And then we as parents have to say, okay, but then the next best thing to say is what will you do next time? What would you do differently if you could do it over and over again, it's not us saying you better turn it in on time next time. You need to be more, pay more attention. But when we say, what will you do differently next time, what would you do if you could do it over? Those are really powerful words for them to consider that there is gonna be a next time and they can have a plan.
Laura: I like that. Okay. So let's talk, talk to me about the four skills that parents need to develop in order to have effective communication with their tweens that you have in your book because I didn't really like those skills.
JoAnn: The four skills. Okay. What's the first one?
Laura: The first one is to listen to understand, right?
JoAnn: Okay. So listing sounds very, very easy, right? But it is not easy at all because we have to take everything that's going on in our brain and put it over there so that we can give our child our full attention. And that means no distractions, no phone, and knowing anything that's gonna get in the way of listening to them because what we want to do is give them that format. So when we're listening, we're not judging, we're open minded, we're paying attention to their words. We're paying attention to their body language. And that is really valuable for listening to them so that they feel, they feel understood, they feel that they have our time and our attention and that is number one in building that connection with them.
Laura: And I, I think it's too like it's crucial that we also under like we remember not to be thinking about what we're going to say, right, that we're actually hearing and, and it's so tempting to lecture during those moments too, like to just remember to save all that. Right.
JoAnn: Right. You know, one of the things that I tell parents is when we go into lecture mode, which we like to do because we have all this experience, right? And we know what's best for them and it's so easy just to turn on the lecture mode. But I promise you after one sentence and maybe 1.5 sentence, the tone of voice, the words, everything you are communicating in lecture mode, your child is just gonna turn off their brain and they're going to say- “You sound like the Charlie Brown parents” you know the adults and Charlie Brown or whatever. Once again, they're gonna go on and on and on, and on and on and on about something. They've already told me a million times so that the child could actually give the lecture. And so while we believe that we're parting on them, these wonderful words of wisdom, they in fact, are not listening. And so if we can stop the lecture and, and let them voice, okay. So what do you, what, what would you do if you could do it differently? What are your ideas? How should we solve this problem? What other things should we consider? They get to do the talking? And that's the really valuable part is them doing the talking? Yeah, because they're not really listening to the lecture.
Laura: Right. Yes. And then, you know, I think two, sometimes if we jump in too early, we don't have all of the information and we don't even know. I think sometimes they will voluntarily tell us, I won't do that next time. Like, I think that there's a space for two of just like, oh gosh, what was that like then what happened? You know, just kind of like good active listening, like drawing out stuff like, oh, tell me more. Gosh, you know, just like even just you know, like sounds of disbelief or oh, you know, like the groan, you know, like there's so many good, like, so like partial verbal. What are those things called? Those, like the little sounds that you make to encourage communication.
JoAnn: But yeah, and so I think too that when we say right along with what you've said, Laura is, I really want to understand what happened, how can we understand what happened? And then when they're telling the story, it's like, and how are you feeling about that? Because the information and the emotions are both part of the, of whatever the action was that happened. But when they get to tell their story without being judged, without being criticized, without being lectured, their whole feeling of comfort with you is going to be so much better than if they feel like they're gonna be in trouble. They've disappointed you or they're going to lose some privilege. So that powerful conversation is amazing for a relationship.
Laura: Yeah, I love that. I think there's some of the things you're talking about too, like to be able to do that, to be able to bite your tongue and not say the thing you want to say, you have to be able to regulate yourself, right? And oh my gosh, JoAnn, so many of the parents that I work with myself included have been working on learning how to regulate ourselves and our own emotions. These, this child's entire life, you know, we've been working hard at this. But what are some of the things that we can be doing to like, help us get that pause, be able to bite the tongue when we need to bite the tongue and not say the thing. What are some? Do you have any? I don't know, ideas for us to continue to practice and build that skill.
JoAnn: It is a tough skill to build, but it's so powerful once that once we've gotten it, but it's, it's like, you know, that curvy line where we have it, we don't have it at, at Ebbs and flows, right. So one of the things that I like to tell parents is that you need to accept the emotion that you're feeling. So you're really angry that your child got in trouble at school, they did something really careless or really stupid and you're angry with them. And so and you know, whatever emotion we're feeling, it's okay to be angry, it's okay to be frustrated, it's okay to, to just be so intensely beyond rationalization at whatever happened, right? So when we accept, I am angry, I am frustrated at her. I'm so disappointed in her and we accept that. Yes, that's true for me. And we can say that very quickly to ourselves. But the most important thing right now is having a conversation with her about it where she gets to talk about it. So those are decisions you have to make in the process like and if we can be, be prepared for those by saying, Okay, stuff's gonna happen, right? Stuff's always gonna happen and it does, I'm gonna pay attention to my emotions. I'm gonna recognize that emotion. But then I'm gonna put that emotion aside and I'm gonna talk to her and let her tell me her story without my emotion into it.
Laura: Without my emotion getting into it. I feel like that is a piece that is really important to highlight because it is so tempting for those of us who are trying to be really authentic as parents really, you know, good modelers of emotional regulation, kind of learning how to take care of our own feelings and be responsible for our own feelings. It's tempting to say like I'm really frustrated right now, you know, to kind of use the statements and I what you're suggesting is that you say that to yourself, I'm frustrated right now. You acknowledge that feeling. If you need time to go acknowledge it in private with yourself, go ahead and take it because there's not an emergency, nothing will be lost and then come back with that emotion set to the side so that you can have a kind of a clean slate for helping your child process what's going on for them. So you can be a clear mirror for them to kind of reflect on. Yeah, absolutely.
JoAnn: Absolutely. Because what happens when our emotions get in there and we start yelling or being frustrated, then that child there's, then there becomes two problems, whatever happened. And then there's this emotional conflict between you and your child. And so and when that happens. It's the, the child is trying very, very hard to get you not to be mad at them to get you to calm down. Because when we turn one problem into two, that's twice as big as a problem. So if we can control our emotions and just listen to our child talk about what happened, that gives them that opportunity to, to be honest, to be forthright. It is a really powerful thing. There's a really powerful thing that happens when your child is free to tell you what happened. And they're not worried they're gonna get punished. They're not worried that you're gonna be mad at them. They just have that freedom, that, that freedom, that, that time. And to in their world because we want to know what's happening in their world, right? We do, we do. So when we have to and we want them to know that we're the safest person they can talk to I love and we're their sanctuary or the place where they can come and they can be themselves.
Laura: I love, I really, really love that. And my guess too is if we do that, if we resist the urge to say, even with lots of like kind of respect and evenness, I'm really angry right now and I need to go take some time if we were to say like I'm having some feelings, we don't necessarily have to say the feeling. But I, I'm, I need to kind of think about this a little bit and take some time for myself before, you know, and then we'll, we'll talk about it and I want to hear what's going on for you to get yourself soothed. I, I think that like by the time we actually hear there's their, you know, their perspective, what was going on for them, what they were thinking about by the end of that, that feeling of our own will have dissipated will have been right, because we will have been reassured that, yeah, this kid is the same kid I've known since they were little, you know, they actually do know how to move through this world with empathy and respect for others. You know, like they were thinking about things, you know, or they made a human error. We're able to be more in contact with the truth of the matter of these kids that we're raising as opposed to kind of the flooded, you know, flooded state that we're in when we're feeling angry or disappointed or frustrated, whatever. Right.
JoAnn: Absolutely. Because the it's, it's the connection that you want and we as the leaders, we as the parents are the ones that set that up. So if we can say I need a second, just give me a second to think about this. And, and when, when we say think rather than process our emotions, that's a much better thing for our children to understand like I just need a minute to think about this. Just give me a minute. Give me a minute to think about this. Love it. Yeah, to think about this because the other value of doing that is our kids get to do that later when we're asking them something. Give me a minute to think about it because a pause is a great thing. It's a really great thing.
Laura: Okay, so you could use that language too. I need a pause. Just give me a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Just give me the click. I just need to press pause and then I'll come back.
JoAnn: Yes. Yeah. And, and they'll, they'll still understand that metaphor. I understand, you know.
Laura: I'm thinking too that there's, there's times where things are happening with my kids where they are clearly unavailable to talk about it in a way that is rational. They are clearly in their feelings. And there is a part of me that, you know, goes back to my own kind of anxious attachment that I've got going on that really struggles with leaving things unresolved for a period of time. So I have to do a lot of self soothing in those moments. But I'm thinking about like, gosh, how beautiful it is that my kids know like, hey, I'm not in a place to talk about this right now. They don't say it that way. They say go away. I'm not talking about it. You know, they, they, they have, their delivery is not as, maybe effective or as, I don't know, grounded or sophisticated as we would like. But that's what they're, they're communicating. Like, I don't have capacity to dig into this right now. I'm flooded, whatever. And they need some space like respecting and honoring that is really important too. And that, that's something for me that personally is hard. I have to work at regulating myself to not like, oh no, we're fixing it now so that we can all be okay with each other, you know.
JoAnn: Right. I mean, and that is really hard because we do want to have resolution to whatever the issue is right along with um everything that you stand for. Laura with respect and kindness to children. If you say when they say go away, I don't want to talk about it now. But if we respond with like I get that, you're not ready to talk about that right now. So let me know if you want to talk about it before dinner or before bed time. So it's not gonna go unresolved. You're giving them a choice when they want to talk about it in that way. There's not that pressure like, okay, I've got five minutes right now and this is what I want to do and this is good for me and they're just gonna be that internal rolling their eyes and being in that inability to talk about it right now has to be recognized because they have some sorting to do something happened. And so when we think about something that happened, and we think about, you know, the emotions stained in the Amygdala.
And how long are those emotions gonna fester in there? And then the forward movement to the prefrontal cortex where action is taken where some thoughts are considered. When we think about our child it is really grappling between the two. What we want them to do in the long run in the problem-solving portion is move out of the emotions and move into the action because we can really, especially nowadays with mental health being kind of precarious for so many of us, if we stay stuck in the emotion of being rejected or unhappy or feeling like we don't belong or we're disgusted with something you can go through all the emotions that are in the Disney movies, right? But what, but what we want to do, what we want them to do is to be able to talk about it and move out of the pain of the emotional hurt and get to the safe place where they can really talk about what happened and then what they're going to do in response to that.
Laura: So how do we do that with kids without pestering them? You know, like how do we know when, when to help them move, like move through it, you know, like how like the time, they feel like the timing must be crucial. Like, how do we know when it, when it's time to help them move through it or if it feels like they just want to sit and stew in it, you know, how do we get them?
JoAnn: I mean, there's not, I can't give you like, after five minutes then you can, you know.
Laura: I meant like, what are they like? I don't know. Are there body language cues? Are there? Like I'm imagining like a kind of a, a body version of the door cracking open. You know, like when my kids are having a hard time when they were little, I would often just, they would be in their rooms with the door closed because that's where they wanted to be. And I would just sit outside and after a little while they'd crack the door open and I would know like that's my cue I can come in and they're ready. Like, well, how, what are some of the teen Tween language cues that like, okay, they're ready.
JoAnn: So a lot of times when we give them that forum for talking about not only the story but their feelings, they were, they were insulted, they were embarrassed, they were blown away. They were surprised they were embarrassed when we let them talk about how they feel about it. That's a big thing for them to embrace their emotions and realize that, hey, this is real. For me, this is how I felt about it. And so as they talk about their feelings, then you can help them decide what's gonna happen next. How are you gonna think about tomorrow? So when we do, when we go in terms of what we're gonna think about that, that's where we can decide like, yeah, you know, my friend was just, she was on her period and she was moody and she sent me that horrible text and I know she didn't really mean it. So after the herd is over, that's when they can talk about like, I don't think she really meant that or, you know, they did poorly on an exam and we certainly don't want them. We certainly don't want that one horrible exam grade to color their whole perception of how they perform at school. Then we, and sometimes we want to say, oh, it was just one test, don't worry about it. That's not gonna help them.
No. What, what will help them is to say? Yeah, you didn't do very well on that. I know. And I know you feel bad about that. I know you wish you'd done better and, and I wish you'd done better too. So, what are we, what are you gonna do going forward? Because it's the action that we take that's going to make the difference. It's the action that they're going to take. But I do, I do get very concerned for kids who have, and all of them have emotions but not knowing how to get out of that roller coaster of reliving, rehashing doing that mental verbal intake, the, the all the stuff that goes in our brain.
Laura: Like the perseverance of it.
JoAnn: Exactly. That's the word for it. Yeah. So we need to get them to not do that so that they can think differently of themselves and their abilities.
Laura: Okay. And so it sounds like it's almost like a, it starts with empathy, it starts with validating and then kind of a gentle nudge into the problem solving um as opposed to going straight into it in a way that feels dismissive.
JoAnn: Right. Yes. And then that's the last thing that they want. I'm so glad you mentioned that word dismissive because that's the last thing they want is to have their emotions dismissed. So once they are talking about how they're feeling, you're listening to the story and then you move forward to like, ok, so what are you gonna, how are you gonna think about this in the future? What are you going to do differently? How is that going to impact you? Because those are important questions. Those are important questions. I remember one of my children was trying out for this part in a play and the teacher had taken her aside the drama teacher and said, you've got this, you've got this. And so she was married to the idea that she was going to get that part in the play. Well, she didn't get it. And so he was, yeah, here was a broken promise from an adult. Here was a child that was disappointed and devastated with the news and there, there was, there was not a fix, there was not an easy fix for that because, you know, the next play wasn't until, you know, six or six months later.
And so when I, when I was listening to her talk about how unfair it was and how she trusted that teacher and now she couldn't and how that teacher lied to her. All those things were 100% real within her. I mean, she was so mad, she was crying, she was screaming, she was really upset. And that's the thing that I let her cry, I let her just about all the feelings that she was feeling. And after she got done doing that, she did have a sense of relief, but it wasn't a, it wasn't a situation where we could solve a problem. All we could do was to really help her deal with the emotional impact of that and then to bounce back up, go to school the next day and continue to be her really awesome self. I mean, she was an amazing student and really had never dealt with disappointment before. So this is like a milestone in her life. So I knew that how she was going to be able to bounce back was gonna be a really important thing for her because it was the first time she'd really dealt with something that was so unexpected.
Laura: Yeah. Wow. Oh, that's a lot to take on. And so, I mean, and I think there is a temptation on the part of the parent to get on the email and email that teacher, you know, call up the school. How, how do you keep yourself from getting involved in moments like that? Because I, we all know the dangers of helicopter parenting and yet it's so tempting to do, right? Because we, and these are our kids. How are you within yourself? What do you tell yourself, like how to kind of stay in your lane? Like what are some of the, like the internal pep talks that you can give to yourself?
JoAnn: So, one of the ways I really can help myself do that is deciding whose problem is it? Whose problem is it? Is it, is that my problem? It's not my problem. It's my daughter's problem that she didn't, the teacher broke her promise and she didn't get to do what she was told she would get to do. Right. It was my daughter's problem. And so when we start with identifying whose problem is it and not in a cold way, but just in the reality of who has control of the problem and we don't just like turning in homework or studying for a test. There's a lot of things we can do to help our children do that, but in reality, they are the ones that have to do it. And so it's just like for us when, when our driver's license is about to expire, we are the only one that can go take the test and get it back up to date. Right. We're the only ones that can register to vote. We're the only one that can choose to go the speed limit that we're going. Yeah. And so our kids are the only ones that can solve a lot of their problems and when we hand that off to them. Wow, that's so exciting for them because they learn how to solve those problems. They learn that they can do it until later on. We're not gonna be there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a lifetime skill that is built with practice.
Laura: It is 100%. And, you know, I taught at the college level for years. My husband is still a college professor and the, the number of times that we get emails from freshman, sophomore, junior parents asking about their kids grades, why didn't they get a, so, you know, a particular grade on a, thing, you know, can they be excused from an assignment and, you know, it's against the law for college professors without a release to communicate to their child, if their child is over eight or to the child's parents, if the child is over 18. But I mean, gosh, and it just tells me that these kids have not had a lot of support in figuring out how to own their own problems, how to take accountability and responsibility, and be active and engaged in their problems that arise in their own lives. You know, and when kids are engaged in the problems that arise in their own lives, I feel like, I mean, it's just such a beautiful skill to have.
JoAnn: And it is.
Laura: So much better. They're small too. Right. So much better to start small.
JoAnn: Yeah. And start when they're younger because as they get older problems get bigger. But the whole idea of, for parents to think too in a sense of relief, like, I'm glad my child can, knows how to deal with this. I'm glad she can go to the teacher and solve the problem. I'm glad she's the one that is going to fill out the form to volunteer at the children's hospital. You're grateful that they're getting those skills and you're excited about their new abilities, things that they didn't do before.
Laura: Yeah. It is exciting. It's exciting to see these kids growing up. You know, as a mom who's like in the thick of it right now. I mean, it is just, it's so much fun seeing these new sides to them emerge, watching them try things on and, and leave things behind and I mean, it, it's, it is a lot of fun. There's challenges, of course, any stage of development has challenges. But it is, it's fun. It's, it's a fun time to be a mom in my, like, at least in my experience, even though like there's parts that gosh these people, you know, they come into the world,you know, so little and so dependent and seeing them shift into being so, so competent and capable. And so fully themselves too, you know, even if they don't fully know who that self is yet, you know, but just really engaged in that process. It's wild. It's so, it's such a privilege to get to witness that, you know, I think we're so lucky.
JoAnn: It really is lovely and I think one of the things that, when we think of our kids taking a risk and we think about the dangers that we don't want them to get in. I think the whole concept of having conversations with your children about things that might be upcoming is that they're going to have to learn skills to say no, or learn skills to say yes or how to talk to someone of the opposite sex or even have conversations about sex. I mean, all the things that we can do to prepare ourselves to have those conversations are really important. And a lot of those things I have written about in my book that I think are really helpful for parents because some things are scary. You know, having a chat with your kids for a lot of parents about sex is not something comfortable having a talk with them about, you know, puberty sometimes is not very comfortable. If they're, if they were in trouble for stealing something, those conversations are not comfortable if we don't think they are. But if we get ourselves in a mindset where, hey, this is important information that I want them to know that's going to help them matriculate through the world successfully, then it's not a problem. It's an asset and it's a mindset.
Laura: Absolutely. And I also think it's so important for parents to know that research tells us research on tweens and teens tells us that they actually want that information from their parents that most of the time that they get the information from their peers, but they want it from their parents. They want to be able to talk about these things with their parents. So coming, you know, as kind of just relaxed and chill as we can be about it. And, you know, like perhaps they like, if it's super awkward within you, perhaps that's an indication like there's some work for you to do with your younger self. Does, you know, little, you know, does little 11 year old Laura need to have the chat with an understanding and compassionate adult that she didn't get when she was 11. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's sometimes some inner child work that needs to happen too so that we can have those more easy conversations.
JoAnn: Right? It's about leadership and deciding that, you know, this is the kind of parent you want to be and then you get to be that parent.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like a lot of us, you know, a lot of the folks who are listening have been committed to being a good and respectful and compassionate leader. And I think the biggest takeaway from my conversation with you, JoAnne, is that, that just keeps going and the job description just changes a little bit and there's just a little kind of easing off easing back but still staying present and then kind of when they need us to lean on. We're there with lots of empathy, compassion, support and problem-solving.
JoAnn: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it is a great time in your family's life.
Laura: Yeah. And I mean, it's, again, it's a, it's, it's wild, it's fun. It's a privilege to see them being brave and becoming themselves.
JoAnn: 100%.
Laura: Yeah, I just, I want to thank you for sharing with us both here on the podcast and, and in the world with your book. Will you make sure that my listeners know where to find you and connect with you.
JoAnn: Sure, they can find it at yourtweenandyou.com. There's also a, I send out a newsletter every week or so about tips for parents and they can certainly sign up for that. It's called the Tween Times. And I also do a lot of coaching and they can connect with me if they'd like a parenting coach. On the same website You're Tween and you.com.
Laura: Great. Thank you, Joanne. I really appreciate your time.
JoAnn: Oh, thank you, Laura. It was my privilege and so much fun talking about parenting.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!