Episode 206: Supporting Kids Who Struggle to Share Their Feelings with Kimberly Bartlett
/You know how, as respectful, peaceful parents we are supposed to be teaching our kids about their feelings and talking them through their big emotions? Well, what if that doesn’t work for your kid? What if they run away, cover their ears or say “DON’T SAY THAT!” when you try to help them through their big feelings? What are we supposed to do then??
I know I can’t be alone in having a kid like this, who resists “feelings talk” because I hear from so many of you that this is happening for you too. So this week, we’re tackling the challenge of helping kids navigate their emotions when they resist talking about their feelings. Joining me is Kimberly Bartlett, a Registered Play Therapist who specializes in working with children and families navigating anxiety, trauma, and neurodiversity. We’ll explore the power of play therapy as a safe, nonverbal way for kids to express themselves and share actionable strategies for parents to support emotional growth and connection.
Here are some of the topics we covered in this episode:
Supporting emotional regulation when children resist discussing feelings
Five co-regulation strategies for supporting dysregulated children
How to respond when children ask for space during emotional dysregulation
Helping families identify when children need additional emotional support
Understanding what therapy and support look like for children
Definition and variety of play therapy approaches for children
How children process emotion through play
How parents can support their children's emotional processing at home through play
Supporting emotional processing by separating play from conversations
To learn more about Kimberly, you can visit her website at evergreenplaytherapy.com, and follow her on Instagram @evergreen_play_therapy.
Remember, every child is unique, and finding the right way to connect with them takes time and patience.
I would love to hear from you! If you have any questions you’d like to have answered on the podcast or any takeaways or wins you’d like to share you can leave me a message here: https://www.speakpipe.com/laurafroyenphd
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen. And on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to be talking about what to do when our kids don't want to talk about their feelings. So how can we support our kids with their emotions when they really are resistant to talking about them to help me with this conversation? I am bringing in Kimberly Bartlett. She is a play therapist. So a registered play therapist, which is really important who helps children and families with anxiety, trauma and neurodiversity related challenges using integrative play therapy. And I'm so excited for this conversation. Kimberly. Thank you so much for being with us. Will you tell us a little bit? Oh, yeah, great. Will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?
Kimberly: Sure. Thanks for acknowledging the difference in the designation as a registered play therapist. I like chatting about that because I feel a lot of parents aren't familiar with that National Certification and understanding that difference. And kind of what happens because someone is a registered play therapist ultimately, the only national credential for Play Therapist is the association for Play therapy. And ultimately, it's kind of like having another master's degree in that sense where it's really just focusing on play therapy. And people who say that they have skills and do and learn play therapy are great and they're explaining that and then knowing the difference between people who say that they perform play therapy training in play therapy versus being a play therapist.
Laura: So, yes, it is an important distinction, especially for families who are looking to, you know, have their family be served through play therapy or it's important to know that there is a credential out there that you can be looking for.
Kimberly: Absolutely. Just like there are so many other wonderful expressive arts oriented, you know, specialties, art therapists, music therapists, drama therapists that there are these different certifications out there. Like you said, when you're looking for something specific that you can have someone who's an expert in that specific area, which is fun. And I'm up here in Seattle, Washington and I have a private practice where I see a small number of clients because they offer concierge play therapy for families.
Laura: Oh, what is concierge play therapy for families?
Kimberly: So ultimately, it lets me step back from the traditional model of coming in and you have one client and that's your main client and you see them on a certain level that the insurance will reimburse. So I get to really work still holistically, which is my approach anyways, holistically, however, you're not as relegated to a lot of the insurance reimbursements. So if it feels like this family would benefit more from more collaboration with the school and be able to support them in meetings, then you can provide that. And by having fewer clients, I'm also more available to my clients. So if there is something that pops up or parents need some support on implementing their strategies, feeling challenging or needing more advice and support to figure out their family, then they just get a lot more hands on and that just works for my personal style, which is why I do that. I'm very invested in my family. I like to really build a strong relationship with them and that's just my personal style. And then after doing this for 20 years, I've come to find that that works best for me. I just feel more energized when I get to have those deeper relationships with my family. And so the concierge allows me to really look at them in a holistic picture and spend more time in the different areas that they may need extra support.
Laura: Before as a person with a background in marriage and family therapy, I very much appreciate a system like a systems oriented approach to working with kiddos for sure. I, oh, it just might, I No, sorry, my brain lost the question and now it's back. So, yay. I think a lot of folks who don't have experience with play therapy or are thinking about a child, their child going into therapy might be surprised to hear you talking so much about the family. I think in our world, our idea of what child therapy or play therapy is gonna look like, is that the kid is gonna go into a room and then they're gonna come out better. And I would love, I mean, and so I would love for, can you like, I don't know, just dispel a little bit of that myth. Can you talk to us a little bit about what it would look like, what it looks like for a family to enter into play therapy before we get into the topic of our discussion. It's, you know, I love it when I have someone who's in practice who can explain these things to our families because it's intimidating to go into a new setting. Yeah.
Kimberly: It absolutely is for every single person in the family, it's intimidating, right? And I, I think that's a question that does often come up, right? As families, what does this look like? Asking parents are asking like and, and how am I involved? And what is my role? And it will differ, play therapist to play therapist because there's more than 25 people play therapy. So depending on the orientation of your therapist, you may have someone who is not as holistic or family oriented, but anyone who works with kids has to work with parents. Right hands down. We know that there has to be some element of a systems approach, but the orientation may look a little different. I'm an integrative play therapist. So I definitely draw from a systems perspective as well as a handful of additional models that I feel I'm well trained in, and can stand behind. So when families come, it's definitely a, you know, supporting parents and helping them know what their role is in therapy, that they're going to have a role that may look different based on their child's needs, their, the parents abilities, their capacities, et cetera, but they're going to be involved that may be in the room the entire session and it's doing family therapy of one model or the other and may have them as just for a part of it and it may be behind the scenes where we meet and we talk about how to support their child, but they're going to be involved.
And I think that's really important because parents want to know how to help. I don't want this magic to happen, this idea of going behind, you know, the door closes and what happens behind there is unfamiliar to the parent. They wanna know, they wanna have an idea. And although we give our client, child, clients, confidentiality, parents do need to have a sense of what's happening. What are we working on? How can I tell if it's improving and how do I be a part of that? And we want them to, because the idea is that we don't stay a part of the family, the idea is that we're there to support and get them into a position that feels manageable that we've either gotten something to a spot where it feels okay or it's been alleviated depending on what the situation is and that the parents feel like they can keep that going when therapy comes to an end.
Laura: I love that you are talking about the idea that there will be a time where it comes to an end. You know, I work in a coaching capacity at this point in my career. And it's important for me to continue to maintain that kind of expectation that we come alongside families at a certain point in their life. And our hope is always that there will be a point where they don't need us anymore. You know, like that is the goal that they will be ready for us to kind of diverge off their path and that, that's okay, that's healthy, that's good, you know, and they might come back in, you know, so I love it when my clients, you know, they, I, they, they're, they're on their own, they kind of god handle things on their own and then whoops, the new developmental phase comes up and they come back in now. But its goal is to support the families. So that, and, and the belief that they have everything within themselves already.
Kimberly: Agree. I definitely have that perspective. I share that.
Laura: Yeah. Okay. So, let's talk about this, our topic for today. Kimberly is being very flexible with me because I kind of sprung this on her, I think a little bit. But, I hear all the time from families that I work with and I see on forums that families are confused. Parents are confused because they are hearing from the experts out there that they're supposed to talk about their feelings, their kids feelings with them, label their feelings, name their feelings, empathize with their feelings. You must feel so sad like, oh, I bet you, you know, gosh, you're mad right now, you know, talking about feelings a lot is emphasized, especially in the realm of parenting that I work in. And I hear from a lot of parents that there's pushback from their kids that some kids seem uncomfortable. Some kids, it seems like it almost floods them and makes the feelings worse since they don't want to talk about it. And so some kids will cover their ears and say no, don't say that. Stop talking, you know, they've really some, some kids really don't like us talking about their feelings. And so I, I think a lot of these families are left feeling like, okay, so how can I support my kid and having, you know, good emotional support, feeling supported, emotionally, develop those emotional regulation skills when they're really reactive to me talking about it.
Kimberly: I definitely hear that as well and I think part of the, the exciting thing that I even hear this, even though it's not necessarily a positive, I'm excited that more and more parents are bringing this because it, it shows to me how much effort parents are putting into parenting and I commend them like it really reflects that people are searching for a new way, a way that may not have been the way that they were raised, that may not have worked for them. And just again, you know, society moves forward and hopefully in a positive direction. And I think this reflects that parents are trying to find what fits their kid and they're searching. So one, I, I try to acknowledge that for them, right? Like, well, good on you that you've even recognized. It doesn't work for your kid and that, that's an issue. It isn't that your kid is to blame or that your kid is a problem because you're getting this feedback. They're obviously the parent who is open enough to say, hey, this isn't working for us even if they're not phrasing it that way. They're certainly acknowledging there's an US factor rather than the finger pointing of. There's something wrong with my kids, which I love and I want to reinforce.
Laura: Oh, I'm so glad you held that up to the light for us all to see. Oh, gosh, I love that reframe too. Just highlighting like this is obviously coming about because you're making a conscious and intentional effort. Thank you for that Kimberly.
Kimberly: Well, I think, you know, parenting is tough and parents come in wanting help and support and sometimes they don't recognize how much that they are doing. And I think the fact that they're aware enough to ask this question is commendable. Like I get excited when parents saying here's this problem, I'm like, that's a good problem to have because that shows me where you're coming from. But ultimately, some kids just don't want to talk or like you said, they're agitated by having to talk and it really brings up to mind. Some of the neuroscience training around core and the five types of co-regulation and really emotional, which is what that category is. They would categorize it, it's emotional. What we're talking about feelings is only one of the five ways we co-regulate.
Laura: So outline those five ways. I'm, I'm super turned around right now. I mean, excited, sorry, I'm excited by that. Like my attention has turned out. I'm so sorry.
Kimberly: I think, I think the emotional is just one area and again, it's, it works great for those that it reaches right where they want to talk about feelings or they want to be heard or they respond while they're verbalized and this is one, right? This is not everybody's way of feeling better and if your child is upset, they're just regulated. So we think about how we can support a dysregulated child. We co-regulate, right? They need support if they're at the, at the point where they can't do it on their own. That's our job as the parent, the supporter, the adult. So emotional is really just one. How are you feeling? Of course, we wouldn't, hopefully, only start with a question but nevertheless, talking in some form, even just reflecting, right? Like you're saying, it seems like you're feeling really sad. These are bad parenting strategies, you know, and they were great for a specific child, but that's not everybody, right? And I think it's just acknowledging that there isn't a one way, a one size fits all approach.
Finding out what works well for your child. And I, I spent a lot of time with these five pieces and individualizing them with families to find out well, which ones do or would my child respond to? And we explore that together, but to answer your question, lower the five areas emotionally. That's the, it seems like you're feeling upset or talk to me about how you're feeling, it's the verbalization of it, verbalization around emotion. Proximity, which is usually like if a parent doesn't know what else to do, use proximity, not that it's not powerful. But when you feel like you've got nothing, left proximity is powerful, just shut up, say nothing, quote unquote, do nothing. You're just sticking around, you're not deserting your child when they need you, staying around is powerful. We're lending our regulated nervous system if we can stay regulated, right? Like we're just deep breathing here. We're just in the area. I haven't left you. My child is our message. I can still handle you even though you want no touching, you want no talking, they may not want you to leave either. So proximity is still a co-regulation. Play is one of the five co-regulation pieces. So that could just be being silly, telling a joke, making a fool of yourself. Those are all playful and of course, we have the stereotypical ones that would come to mind, right? By actually doing a game or inviting them or you know, doing a tipple monster or like any playfulness can lessen the intensity and reconnect. So we're co regulating sensory is one and especially for my kids that don't like talking. I encourage parents to really look at. Is there a sensory component that we can either bring up or bring down?
So, can we reduce the stimuli that maybe not, not, not necessarily the root as to what's causing the problem, but it can help in regulating. So, maybe turn the TV off, reduce the lights. Right. Well, maybe they don't want to get out of bed and now they're super agitated and now you've got a fight. How do we up the energy? Maybe it's bringing in the dog for licks in the bed. Maybe it's putting their favorite music on like you're reenergizing with sensory, right? So again, a lot of these, oh, I'm sorry, last one is touch. So your kids that want a hug, they're just really, really upset. Would you like a hug? Right? Or a little touch or a little kiss or whatever it may be? So those are five co-regulations, it's stuff every parent has done. Like these are not normal, right? Like these are natural, it's how we use them when we use them and kind of fine tuning that. But these are all natural pieces that I think are really accessible for parents too.
Laura: Okay. Oh, I'm already like, I'm thinking in my head all of the way is to help my, I have two kids almost 12 and 9 at the time of this recording. And they like the different, their different needs, they're different co regulation needs the strategies that work for them. And so I would love the listener to just invite you right now to pause this and write down in the five areas that she just listed. Will you say the five again, real quick.
Kimberly: Emotion, Emotional play, sensory, proximity and touch.
Laura: Okay. So in those five areas, write down for each of your kids like a couple strategies that pop to mind in those areas that work. And maybe, you know, if there is one that's empty, that's something to research. Okay. So come back to us when you've done that. I'm thinking now about some kids that I've worked with, who in the midst of their big feelings need space and ask for space very clearly. Leave me alone, go away, shut the door. And what to do when that happens because I think that there's a couple schools of thought on that. I think that there's one school like even when they're saying that don't leave them, you know, show them that you'll stay and then there's another school in, in the kind of like kind of respect their wishes circle back in a calm moment, ask what they really want. Like where, what do you recommend?
Kimberly: We started already with co-regulation. So you've already attempted. So it's not as if they start, you know, having a problem, they storm off, never talk to me again. We're cool like we are trying, right? We're like, hey, darling, you're really upset. Would you like to talk or would you like a hug? Leave me alone. Never talk to me again. That's when we honor because we've done the attempted co regulation. Right. And there has to be a level of honor. So it's not as if we're like, well, yes, they decided they're handling it on their own. They're fine, like, do a check in. But if they say no, I'm like, I don't want you around. I want to be by myself and kids of all ages do that. Like I have some parents like my five year old. I'm like, hm, yeah, honor. Then I need to.
Laura: Kimberly, I'm so glad you're saying this because I do feel like there is a very big message out there in the peaceful parenting community that even when your kid is saying no, get out, you plant yourself in the room and say I'm not going anywhere. And there certainly is no judgment towards anyone who's done this because I think it's coming from a place of really wanting to communicate strongly to your child. I am not leaving you. I'm not abandoning you. And there is a part within me that wants to do that. I've got two kids who, when they're upset, they're like, no, get out. I don't want to see you until they're ready. And then they both reach out for co-regulation with me in different ways. But the little one inside me who was left alone in my room was sent to my room whenever I had big feelings, not approached, you know, not checked in on who sat alone crying, thinking to myself, if someone could just come and check on me, then I would know I was lost. If they come in right now, then I'll know they love me who's had them, I have distinct memories.
Little five-year-old, six-year-old Laura thinks those things, that little one is very active when my kids go to their room and slam their door. And so I have to be super clear with myself like, okay, so that's my little one who wants to go in there and check on them, not actually what this real little one wants, you know. And so at every age, I have conversations with my kids around. All right, when you go to your room for space, what do you want? Sometimes that's me sitting outside the door and then they crack the door and that's the signal to come in. But respecting and I mean, it's a conversation and collaboration, but I just, I feel, I feel so grateful that you said that there's at a certain point, we have to honor our children, we have to honor what they're telling us and trust them that, that this is right to know themselves.
Kimberly: That's what we want them to do. We, we are ultimately their, their guide, their teachers, their supporters like that is our role as parents, right? And so if we are always saying we know best. When do they learn? Right. They don't learn to trust themselves. To me. That is one of my ultimate goals for all my clients. All the little is to help parents see the value in that because there comes the long term positive relationship that forever will have that influence from the parent is, my parent trusts me. My parents believe me. I too can trust what my gut is telling me. And it's especially our nerd divergent kids, who especially get the mixed message that we don't know what we need, that we don't have the right idea of what we need because it looks different than what others need. So I must be wrong and how much longer it takes our nerve divergent kids to figure that out when the adult always knows best. So I absolutely believe in, you know, co-regulation.
But the honor is there's such a huge value for the child to learn. And even if it's just that they get to decide their personal space, even if, even if it's out of irritation towards the parent, there's still a value in sending someone off and having the ability to let that person back in it. Obviously, the letting back in is where the, you know, positive stuff really starts happening. But then having that control limits the unhealthy ways that they pursue other ways of having control in that relationship, right? Because we've said you don't need to do any more than tell me we don't want them to do anything more than just tell us that's what we want them to do. We don't want them to hurt themselves, hurt others, destroy the house for us to finally get it.
Laura: Yeah, I get it that they need space. There's something different than what we thought that they should need or what an Instagram reel or a Tik Tok told us that they should need. Right. Yeah. Oh, I love that so much and I love that you brought in the neurodiversity piece of this. So my oldest child is openly and joyfully autistic and I think I had to do a lot of rethinking around things in parenting her. So she's almost 12 along the way. She has, she has taught me so much about honoring her, helping her to honor herself and trust herself. You know, she's such a wonderful teacher in that way. And my other child who is neuro diverse in her own way is so different and I think it's so interesting that kids can be in the same family you come from, the same parents have the same home environment and then, and have such radically different needs that, you know, gosh, our, our need to be individualized. It's a lot to take on.
Kimberly: It is, I mean, it's extra parenting work for sure. You, you really have to be quite conscious in your approaches and switching that up and making sure everyone feels included. And as an individual, especially for our diver, where that individuality, especially artists become. So, it's such a high value, isn't it? You know, that I am who I am and that's not only okay, but that's amazing.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah, I find with her too that, you know, as she moves into her Tween years, she's so attuned to fitting in, you know, her, her masking has intensified and in, at certain point in certain ways at school and stuff. And so she's needing a lot more release at home and so the co regulation for us to sometimes looks like just me sitting in the same room as she's swinging, you know, as opposed to us talking about things or, you know, if we're having a conversation, it needs to be in a dark room where we can't see each other, you know, those things that helps a lot, you know, I mean, I think it's interesting to think about the ways we need to individualize things and all of that I found through trial and error, you know, like things not working, you know, or her, her asking for specific things. I'm thinking about the families who maybe are worried about their kids, who maybe have bigger feelings, more explosive feelings or seem like they're anxious or worried like their kids are worrying about things more than they normally do. I'm kind of curious about how you help families figure out when their child could use some additional support and what that might look like.
Kimberly: One of the most common times our families come are troubles at school. Right. So either maybe it's school refusal because they're feeling too anxious to go. Right. So it could be social anxiety, it could be separation. But that's pretty common and one especially around anxiety is how it relates to school. It's like, oh this the buck stops here like they have to go and now they're not going or they're, they're blowing out during the day at school. So school related is definitely a big one. I think that gets parents in the door, so to speak, that we need to seek something, whether it's feedback from the school or whether they're just seeing, you know, that and it's something that can't be ignored, so to speak. It's not something we can do and then it's sometimes even kids, surprisingly. I wouldn't say the majority of kids asked to go to therapy by any means. But a lot of our anxious kids that come into my practice are moms. I need help. Mom, these worries won't stop going away. Like a lot of my anxious kids are the ones who ask for therapy because they want to feel better. I know I'd love it too. And it's not like a high percentage of all kids that go to therapy or because they're asking, but of the anxious ones they tend, you know, to be the ones that ask. So I would say those are like the two most predominant ways anxious kids enter into my practice. They're, they're asking for support in some way and reaching out or again, this school is related.
Laura: Yeah. So what does support look like? Because I think, you know, a lot of us are fortunate enough to as adults have therapists and we know what therapy looks like for us. But what does it look like for kids?
Kimberly: Yeah. Ultimately, with play therapy, we want kids to feel like there's an alternative to quote unquote just talking, right. So the idea behind play therapy is that we're giving them some emotional distancing from the problem and themselves such that they can show us and share with us what's bothering them without necessarily having to do that in an adult format coming in, sitting on the couch and saying today was horrible because there was like some kids can do that, don't get me wrong. But that is not typical and if they can, that is hard to do and maybe so hard that they don't want to continue staying in therapy in that way, it does drain them so much. So it's an alternative of being able to express what's going on internally without just having to have these types of, talking and we, again, we do and the older they get, the more talking we do and the, the type of play we do is going to be based on their developmental level. So some parents say, like my kid doesn't play anymore. Probably they do. It just looks different than their perspective of play. Right. A lot of times I like, well, my kid doesn't play, they don't dress up any, understandably they're not five anymore. Right. But don't get me wrong. I've got 13 year olds that want to dress up. I mean, typically not. Right.
Laura: And my, my kids go to a school where play lasts a lot longer. So, I, you know, I, I see 13 year olds playing all the time.
Kimberly: But yes, yeah, you're right. Right. Absolutely. And honestly play never ends. It just looks different. We play as adults. Right. It just looks different. So I do a little bit of helping to support them on what is play ultimately. Right. Because as a society we have a very specific picture of what play is costume, that's role play and then that's done and the kids never play again. Adults never play. It's kind of like the, the general perspective, which is, which isn't true. Right. When we're out there, you know, with our friends, you know, going swimming or going on a boat, like we're playing, we're being playful.
Laura: So, what is a broader definition? Of play? Like, can you give us just a, a nice broad definition that adults can be included in?
Kimberly: Yes. Well, well, play should feel intrinsically motivating like you want to do it. So if, if it's feeling like it's coming from within that intrinsic motive, like I want to do this, I'm excited about doing. I'm interested, I'm curious that's play. So even if someone was told, okay, you're going to dress up in costume and, and role play and they're not into it, they're not really playing, they're role playing. Right. Yes. So there has to be some sort of like general interest, general enjoyment. Like, it's, it's an, it's an intrinsic desire that they have to do this action. And then what that play is, is literally anything so long as it's feeling this way, it's feeling like it's coming from within, it's, you know, enjoyable, they're having fun. Like this is what playfulness is now. That's different from play therapy. Right. We're using play, but it doesn't always feel fun. So, a lot of play therapists have some very strong opinions. I don't have as strong of an opinion, but in my field, there's the here on, like, don't tell your kid to have fun. Like, I don't have a strong opinion on that, because I give a lot of freedom for people to be themselves and, and, and try to meet them where they're at and we move towards understanding what play therapy is. I don't have an assumption that parents come in knowing that my job is to help them with that.
But there is a strong opinion that, you know, we don't want them to tell them to have fun because play therapy can feel fun. But it can also be reenacting trauma which no, not fun, we're playing with dolls, but this is not feeling fun. Right. So there's a therapeutic piece that may not always feel fun. But why is that trauma reenactment still considered? Because it's coming from within, it's being driven from within, they're doing that and we're using something to externalize so that Externalizing is part of the play. But anyway, that was a long answer. No, it was a question and kind of did I answer your what to expect?
Laura: Yes. Although I have a little bit of a follow up question. So when it, I, I'm assuming that this might be different for different types of play therapists or the kind of the theory of play therapy that the therapist you're working with aligns with? But will there be scenarios where the therapist is kind of setting the child up to play in a certain way? Or is it almost always kind of whatever play emerges from the child in a very open ended scenario? Kind of what are some of those, what are some of the ways that can look?
Kimberly: Yeah. You're absolutely right. It's completely based on their theoretical approach. So if you have a single model therapist, which are fewer and far between, because research for decades has been showing that a one theory approach is not the most effective. Although one theory can be just as effective overall reaching all your clients, it's less effective in reaching because you've got one model and you're expecting them to fit you. So you typically will see someone that has more than one model. Although like you're describing a client centered play therapist will use a strictly child led approach. Great. Lots of, lots of positive to that model. I incorporate that model. Sometimes we stay in that model for quite a bit of time and that looks client-led and we could talk, you know about what that, you know, what the purpose is and what you're doing. And then there are other models in which you are completely on the opposite end.
I'm gonna give you kind of the spectrum on the opposite end is, you know, the therapist is, hey, nice to see you again. We're gonna start with a check in. This is how our check in is gonna go and it still plays base, but it's all therapist, we're gonna do the check in. We're gonna do it this way. And then today we're gonna be working on A B and C and here's the activity for A B and C and then we wrap it up and we wrap it up and we say goodbye. So those are our two complete opposite ends again. Both awesome. Both have, you know, their, their use. And then there's in between, in which the therapist is integrating in an intentional way based on many factors when there's this juxtaposition of me and you, you and me and my turn, your turn and that looks different in different ways.
It could be quite literally your turn, my turn or it could be quite collaborative in the moment where there is this natural exchange and the therapist with intention is inserting themselves. But within the play, both unconsciously for the child, meaning we're not directly talking about the problem, but the therapist knows we are working exactly on the problem because they're bringing it up in ways that relate to the child's factual experience. And we do above where it's conscious where we're talking about, hey, this kind of reminds me of the time that you have bullies on the playground, just like what we're playing here. So all of these are like the quadrants as we call them for the integrated play therapist where there's these four quadrants of level of directive of the therapist and level of consciousness with the child. The nutshell version of integrated play therapy.
Laura: Oh, no, it was beautiful. I'm just, I'm thinking about the parents who are listening and I kind of want to hone in on this aspect of the child being conscious or unconscious of what they are working through in their play. I think that that is a piece of it that, gosh, I just, I often find to be very beautiful that children will naturally play in the ways that allow them to process whatever it is that they need to process. But I think that that can feel confusing for parents that they might see themes in the kids' play that we are aware of. We know what those themes are, but the kid might not be fully aware of them and, and how that can be therapeutic if the child isn't aware that they're working through something. Can you, can we talk about that for a second?
Kimberly: I think that can be a really tough one, especially for my very linear parents. My linear thinker parents are really like, but wait and yes there is then that's my job. And it, it, it feels like a very challenging task as a therapist is to try and share when you get these little snippets, you're like, well, it's kind of hard to break down years and years and, but you do your best and yes, there is absolute value in the child being able to have symbolic play without a chat about how it relates to their world because we would lose so many of them, right? Like the four year olds.
Laura: No, they don't care.
Kimberly: No. And is the work still being done 100%? Because when that child gets to pretend to be the mommy and makes mistakes and is like, oh, I'm the mom. I gotta just suck it up. I'm gonna keep going as I play with my doll. And I, you know, they are actually establishing new neural pathways like their brain is changing as they are playing because they are problem solving and they are taking that role on and, and in their whole body and mind experiencing a new role. So my job of saying here's how you suck it up. We do a and we do, we do b and we do c isn't necessary because they have done that our role therapeutically. We do different things with them when they do this. But this symbolic play, it, it is, is making big powerful changes within them.
Laura: Right on, on its own, right? Are there, are there things that parents can be doing at home even though they're not, you know, they're not therapists you know, but are there things that like if we are noticing that play just as an example? My daughter a few years ago got lost when we were visiting an arboretum. She just, they were playing hide and seek and she kind of hid too far off. It was very scary for all of us. Like all the families in the arboretum were searching for her, she did exactly what she was supposed to do. Like all of our, like safety training, like activated within her, which was so great. You know, she stayed where she was. She said, no, you bring my mommy to me. You know, like when someone tried to take her to, to me, she did so great. But when we got home that day, she wanted to take a bath because she was feeling really tired. And in the bath, she started playing this game with these dolls that we have like these little dolls that we have in the um in the bath. And I mean, she was totally processing the experience. The little girls were lost in the bubble.
The daddy was coming to find them. I mean, she was completely processing it. She had no idea she was processing it, but I knew that that's what was happening. And I think in a situation like that, that is so clear, so obvious. I think every parent would know that that's what's happening. But in, in more subtle circumstances, are there things that parents can do to just even, even just being present and acknowledging the work that's happening when a child's processing things? You know what I mean? Like what can parents do at home? Parents who are, don't have a background in therapy but really want to support their kids.
Kimberly: I would say in two different ways. One, what can we do when we're not seeing something specific like you're seeing, right? How do we support them being able to process their typical day? How do we connect with them? How do we engage with them in play would be to me like one? And then what do we do when we're like, oh my God, this seems like something's really happening. Like I can see this like something, something serious is happening to the right to me. One, just like we, I was mentioning where, you know, they're in therapy, taking on these roles or playing in a particular way and the therapist does some specific things. A parent doesn't have to learn these family therapy skills, which they could. That's certainly an option, is finding a play therapist who teaches how to do child parent therapy and learn the skills to do at home. Cool, not necessary. Nice. Cherry on top, but just let your, just let your kid lead the play and don't worry about interpreting, right? Like the therapist can do that and there's added value and there's therapeutic pieces that we do by being able to interpret and then engage with the child in specific ways to lead and guide even in client centered. But as a parent, you don't have to do that and still have value for your child.
There's a case for that. Absolutely. And they're still expressing themselves even if, even if you're not getting the deeper level, they still feel quote unquote heard because you were there, you're witnessing them. So there's still a connection with the parent where they feel seen and heard because they are doing this play with you and they feel seen and heard in the way they need to be, even if you don't have that deeper understanding. So that's one, you know, everybody can do it, just let the child lead and spend some time with them, you know, try not to ask questions and lead and you get value out of that.
Laura: So, I mean, I want to just highlight what you just said at the end there to let the child lead. That means not asking questions, not inserting your own agenda into it. Yes, that can sound like, oh, they're going to the park. Okay? Oh I see them running, you know, like maybe a little bit of narration but, but from a place like this is what they're doing, you're allowing the child's play to emerge as it comes. But not like, so if he says they're going to the park and you can say like, oh, they're going to the park but not what are they going to do when they get there? So there's those, you know, don't ask them what they're going to do when they get there, just wait and see. They'll tell you what they're going to do when they get there. You know, is that right?
Kimberly: Right. Sure. Absolutely. And sometimes there will be, you know, some of those natural pieces that come up where it's like, oh, well, then what do we do next? Not the worst question to ask, you know, especially when you're, you're figuring it out, but definitely not. I don't think we should go to the park. I think we should go somewhere else. Right. Like, yeah, try to, as close as you can stay within there and within let letting them be the lead and, and choosing how the story goes, which honestly for some parents, it's tough because remember when we play with kids, our inner child comes out and so oftentimes when we're not aware of that or we aren't aware enough of our own unmet needs as a kid that can influence parent child playtime where it's like, but my kid keeps telling me what to do. It's like that's not a bad thing, but that can feel really uncomfortable for some parents. And so again, those are good indicators that maybe additional support would be helpful is when it feels like you're not connecting during those playtime, that it is not feeling fun or enjoyable. How do we do that? That would be good. But going back to like how your daughter was processing the day, like in a way, she's Externalizing her internal thoughts, right? In a way, we just kind of swam into her head and we're watching the video of what's going on in her brain.
So it's a very, very profound thing that happens when parents get to observe these really big processing. Like it's, it's like reading someone's journal. Like, are you really being allowed to? And if you are, are you allowed to comment, are you allowed to question, like, really think about that? This is you reading their diary, this is them Externalizing their thoughts, they're thinking it through just like you a journal. You're like, so today I got lost. It was the worst day of my life to date, right? And like, you're like people like, and then this happened and oh my God, and this happened and someone tried to steal me. But I told them no, that they had to bring my mom like their perspective is coming out in their play just like it would if they were a writer. And so we want to really honor that there needs to be a boundary around that, that because they're Externalizing, it is not an invitation to join. And I think by recognizing, you know, that this is really their, their private space, it's externalized because this is how they're processing. And I love this, especially for my neuro divergence because this doesn't necessarily go away when they get older. You know, some of our neuro divers are particularly external processors. So even though that may look developmentally different, we may continue to see more of these Externalizing expressions which again are not always invitations. But that can be confusing to others because it's external as you're like, but it's out here. So I'm assuming that means join. No, not necessarily.
Laura: So I love that perspective and really thank you.
Kimberly: For checking in with them, right? Like if, if they are okay with you seeing that and oftentimes they're doing it because they're just in the moment and it's happening, they feel safe enough to do that and sometimes that's just being a witness as a parent. And that's sometimes just sufficient and then it can be just checking in, but be careful with a really little because that can be very scary for you to kind of quote quotes see inside their brain that can feel very intimidating for our young children, that you would be able to know that they are processing this externally that can feel very intimidating and can shut a lot of kids down. So we don't want someone to come in like reading their journal. Hey, sweetheart, I read your journal. You said today was the worst day ever. Why didn't you tell me about it? Like that would feel pretty violating like that. I didn't want to share that with you or I wasn't ready to share that with you or I'm still trying to figure it out. So in a similar way, we don't want to invite ourselves into a series of questions like, oh I saw you do that what, what, what right thoughts?
Laura: Because it's intrusive. Like it's, yeah. No, I really, I really love that perspective. Kind of having a sense of being honored with the fact that they all share in your presence and then really respecting the work that they were doing and their privacy and, and, yeah, I really, I really like that perspective a lot. Yeah, and that we don't need to necessarily heighten it or make it explicit that whatever it is that if we were, you know, privileged enough to get to witness that, then that can be enough and to leave it there.
Kimberly: Yeah, you can always invite them to chat but just make sure it's separate from their, their play that play, right? Yeah, because in a way again, you're setting that boundary for them. Yes, it's like, Okay, I've allowed them and maybe they've moved on to a different play sequence or maybe they, you know, moved out of that room, they were playing, that's the time to invite yourself in and check in with them, right? Not, hey, I saw you playing about this today. Not even that just to check in like maybe that was a hint for you, like not, not by their conscious intention, but maybe that's a hint as a parent you can pick up on like, oh this is something my kid is still maybe struggling processing, maybe they need an opportunity to chat and say, you know, Hey, that was a really big deal that happened with you being lost last week because maybe they're still processing it. You know, that's a really big deal. I'm wondering if you want to still talk about that at all. But not referencing the play or imitation.
Laura: Yeah, but not referencing the play. So, like if we see our kid coming home and they're playing, you know, school with their dolls and one of the dolls is hitting, not saying at dinner, hey, I saw you playing with dolls and one of your dolls was hitting. Is that happening at school? But coming in and saying, you know how like how was school today? You know, how is everybody doing, like and just leaving the play as the play and the check in in its own lane?
Kimberly: Exactly, because that's their diary. And even if you're, I really love once you read the diary, you don't want them to know that you were the sneaky parent reading their diary, right?
Laura: Okay. Parents, hopefully we're not reading your kids' diaries, right? Like hopefully we're not reading our kids diaries but, but like if you know that does happen, we don't want, yeah, I play as our kids diary. I really love thinking about that because I mean, I think we talk about play as, as a way that kids process and experience and you know, prepare for new roles. But thinking about it as their diary, who I mean, that even just ups the ante and how, how important it is, you know, how private and vulnerable. Oh, I really like that a lot. Kimberly. I feel like I've never heard that before. Thank you. Ok. Well, I feel like we accomplished what we set out to talk about here. I really appreciate you so much. Are there, is there a way that my listeners can get in touch with you so they can learn more or reach out if they're in your area?
Kimberly: Yeah, absolutely. Welcome to my website evergeenplaytherapy.com. I'm also on Instagram, not enormously active there, but I do enjoy putting out some fun videos and that's @evergreen_play_therapy.
Laura: Okay. And all of those links will be in the show. Now, Kimberly, it was really fun talking with you. I really appreciate having a chance to connect on play therapy and geek out a little bit. And gosh, I feel like I really learned a lot in this section.
Kimberly: So thank you. Oh, thanks, Laura. It was a blast. Such an enjoyable time and uh best wishes to you and your little.
Laura: My, not so little anymore, but yes.
Kimberly: They all feel little to me. Okay?
Laura: Thank you so much.
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