Episode 198: Critical Thinking, Intentional Decision-Making, and Global Awareness: Influencing Our Children and Communities with Kavin Senapathy
/In our latest episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we’ll explore how to cultivate critical thinking and intentional decision-making as parents and heightened awareness of our position in the world. Joining us to unpack these important ideas is Kavin Senapathy, award-winning science journalist and author of the book The Progressive Parent.
Here’s an overview of what we discussed:
Understanding the inspiration behind the book and key insights for parents
Balancing science and its limits in informed parenting decision-making
Understanding correlation versus causation in parenting research interpretation
Balancing individual parenting with community efforts for children's well-being
If you enjoyed listening to Kavin, you can visit her website Kavin Senapathy, and follow her on Instagram @kavinsenapathy.
Resources:
Tune in to explore intentional decision-making, the balance between science and parenting, and community efforts for children's well-being!
I would love to hear from you! If you have any questions you’d like to have answered on the podcast or any takeaways or wins you’d like to share you can leave me a message here: https://www.speakpipe.com/laurafroyenphd
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen. And on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent podcast, we are going to be diving into how to be better thinkers, more intentional in our decision making and more kind of aware of how we are situated in the world and how the decisions we are making. And maybe, you know, the kind of the bigger place where we are sitting in the world influences our kids and the kids that are in our community, our broader world that we're in. So I'm really excited to have this conversation with you to help me in this conversation. I'm bringing in Kavin Senaphathy. She is the author of a beautiful new book, The Progressive Parent and she's also an award winning science journalist. And we're gonna have a really juicy conversation, especially around correlation versus causation, which I think is going to be really interesting. So Kavin, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you do about your very interesting book and then we'll dive in. Does that sound good?
Kavin: Yeah, sounds great. I am a parent of two kids, a 13-year-old and 11-year-old. And, my family unit also consists of my spouse slash co-parent. And, I also have two dogs and a tortoise named Chuckles.
Laura: Oh, my God. I've been obsessing over tortoises lately.
Kavin: I mean, my son is, he doesn't dislike dogs but he's interestingly enough, not a dog person, but he loves reptiles, like adores them. But yeah, more about me. I'm a, as you mentioned, I'm a science writer, journalist and an author of The Progressive Parent. And I think one thing that made me specifically excited to talk to you is, as I write in my book along with my respect for science as an approach to seeking the truth, I would say what really catalyzed my career as a science writer was becoming a parent. So I strive to be a balanced parent though. I'm a work in progress for sure. So, yeah, it's really exciting to be here talking with you. And the balanced parent audience.
Laura: Oh, I'm so happy to have you and just for the listeners who are curious, we're actually neighbors too, you know, we, we found out that I live in the same area which is so cool. I was, you know, we were talking before we hit record. I get to read a lot of parenting books. Sometimes that's really wonderful and sometimes there's a lot to sift through. And I felt like your book was so unique because it's not a list of things to do. It's not tips and scripts to say. But it's really, I feel as I was reading it, the sense I got was look, we don't know the right thing to do and say, but here are some things to consider and let's talk about how to think through these things, how to be real concerned and discerning consumers of information and figure out what this means for us and for our family and how we're gonna do things in our homes. Yeah.
Kavin: Yeah, exactly.
Laura: So I would just love to just start a like, can you just tell us a little bit about your book about and, and why you wanted to write it and what you're hoping parents will take away from it?
Kavin: Yeah. So interestingly enough, the book all started when I mean, I should say that the book started about a decade ago when I started out as a blogger and fairly quickly transitioned into a science writer and journalist as well. So it started with curiosity about this famous yard sign that some of your listeners may be familiar with. It went viral all over America in 2016. And like it's still around, I see it on you know, on bumper stickers like all over our city of Madison, Wisconsin for sure where it, where it actually got its start. But then I've, I've been all over the country and seen it. And I know just the same place. Yeah, and it's in this house we believe Black Lives Matter, women's rights are humans rights. No, human is illegal. Science is real, love is love and kindness is everything. And as I, as I reported for this book and talked to people about the sign, it brings up such mixed feelings and opinions. A lot of, a lot of which are positive, a lot of which are critical and interesting ways, you know.
But I wondered when I started seeing the sign everywhere, what does believing in science have to do with everything else on that sign? It seemed to really stick out for me. As it, as it kind of was in the middle of the rest of these value based statements, like women's rights are human rights and love is love. So I, wanted to tease out what science really means to parents and to families. And then I was, I wanted to share tools like kind of examples and tools that help people harness the sentiment that science is real. In tandem with the fight for justice for all kids in our communities, for parents and for others who worry about kid”s well being. And so, you mentioned correlation versus causation and that's one of the themes that I think ties together, what seems like a kind of disparate set of issues in the book. You know, including everything from how to apply this healthy scrutiny of science and parenthood, from food to gender and sex, to race and ethnicity, to clean living, bodily autonomy, autonomy, feminism, greenwashing vaccines. And I kind of was able to comb out how some of these themes connect all of this stuff.
Laura: Yeah. You know, it's something that I was really struck by while I was reading your book. Was this and, and I see this all the time in my work with parents. In my, I have a big Facebook group where people are asking questions, you know, I get to, I, I get to hear their anxiety, their desire to do things right for their kid, right? Their desire to prevent harm and prevent risks and the desire to lean on science for knowing which answer is right? Which way, which decision is the right one for their kid. I love the invitation in this book to think broader beyond just our one child. And I also, you know, as a scientist myself. So, you know, I have a PhD, I did a lot of research in science and like on parenting specifically. And what's fascinating to me is how tempting it is to go to science for the answer and how most people who are actually scientists, you know, who have done the research, understand that the answers that are in, that are in published journals are not anywhere close to the whole picture.
They are stories from data that's been pulled out, perhaps taken out of context, not fully, you know, depicting the complexity and rich diversity of life. You know, and, and so as a person who loves to like loves to read, research finds it fascinating. It's also really important to me that we balance it with the idea that, you know, we understand that this research was done in a certain context by certain people with their own, carrying their own biases. And that at the end of the day, like we're human beings too and, and we don't know it all. And a lot of this as you know, science is very new and are we are very ancient beings too? You know, I, so I'm kind of curious where I, I don't even, there wasn't even a question. I just love getting to talk with other people who are thinking about these things, you know, and I know my listeners are thinking about them too. And so I feel very curious about kind of where you sit in understanding. Okay, so how great science is real and we're also infallible. You know, or imperfect humans, you know, very fallible humans. And what does this mean for our lived life and, and how do we understand the headlines that are out there? The Clickbait headlines versus like, what does it really mean for our families? Can you help us?
Kavin: Yeah, I could, I mean, I could talk about this all day. I'm such a nerd for it, but it's also like some of what I love about reading research is like, I have like, one of my not so guilty pleasures. I try not to feel guilty about my pleasures is reality TV. And like, I love sometimes how dramatic science can be and how it's like, really kind of catty sometimes between schools of thought and, and everything. But, you know, like when I first became a parent, I was so anxious and I know everybody gets anxious in their own ways. But, I actually ended up with what's called postpartum OCD or obsessive compulsive disorder. So it was like the most extreme kind of anxiety that you could experience and people can read more about that experience in the book. Because I'm pretty open about it and it's more common than we think. But I, I almost turned to, trying to understand science as a coping mechanism. And even now, I'm a therapy person and I, and my therapist and I sometimes talk about like, how, how much do you want to like to really answer your questions? Like, because if something makes me anxious and I'm uncertain, like, because I have the ability to like, look at the research and be like, Okay, what is, what's the truth? Like? Do I need to be doing that all the time? Probably not.
Laura: But like versus developing the skill, like versus developing the skill of sitting in the not knowing like, yeah.
Kavin: So there's that. So I, I definitely caution against um because you can't do that all the time and you don't need to but to answer your question about like the science and going through it and this sentiment of believing in science, you know, in, in my reporting over the years, I've talked to countless parents, like hundreds of parents, experts, doctors, scientists, educators, um politicians, legal experts and so on and so forth and just regular people. All of whom I think all humans, all children have this infinite. I've, I've listened to, to you talk. So I think you agree, but like we have this infinite potential and we all have these universes within us that are constantly unfolding and expanding ever since we're born. But people, it's tempting to kind of identify with believing in science because it gives you this feeling. And I'm, I'm speaking for myself here too that you identify with, with everything that you stand for. But when you ask people what believing in science means to you, what they say can kind of vary. But the thing is there's this idea that there are some people who don't believe in science, right? So if we believe that vaccines work or we believe that the earth is a sphere and not flat, or if, if someone believes in evolution, then that's what believing in science means. If that's the case, then you know, I would heartily believe in science, no questions asked. I've actually been at science marches holding up those sciences real like science. So I, I'm completely with it, but when you look at people and the, and what they feel and what they mean, there might be people who disagree on some question or another, but in general, everyone and including the organizations that some might call science, denying organizations would say that they believe in science, like they believe that there is something called the scientific method, which is a messy thing too that the book goes into.
But so in, in kind of positioning like the, the people who would identify with that yard sign, whether or not you would keep that, you know, would put that sign in your yard. I think most progressives agree that, you know, Black Lives Matter, love is love and science is real. So people who would agree with all of those things, I believe that it would really help us build the world and manifest the world that we really hold in our values. It would help us to be able to scrutinize science. And one more, you know, one deep, one layer deeper because consensus like consensus came up a lot when I asked people, what believing in science means to them. People often said that believing in science means agreeing with or following the consensus on any scientific question. But as the book discusses most questions that you can seek an answer through science, we don't have a strong consensus on most of those questions that affect our kids. It's not as easy as saying, yeah, the earth is a sphere like that's the consensus that or that vaccines don't cause autism. That's the consensus like we know that, that like, yeah, that's not really something that we're debating if we believe science is real. But, there are so many other questions that are Okay, like we only know so much and then at a certain point you do have to sit in that uncertainty.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, and the, you know, gosh, so much of the science on parenting has not, it's not replicable like so they never get the same samples and you're able to get the same results in different samples. You know, it's just as very messy to try to reduce something as complex as, you know, raising a child to the scientific method, you know, like it is very difficult to do that. I feel curious about the can we dig into a little bit of the correlation versus causation? I think a lot of the listeners here will know that correlation means that there is a, you know, a statistically significant relationship between two things. And it's, but we don't understand what that relationship is or the mechanism for that relationship. Oftentimes when relationships are found, we like to interpret them and attribute some kind of causal model to them saying, you know, because of this and this is related, that means, you know, so like, for example, because spanking and later, you know, and behavioral problems are related, spanking causes behavioral problems, you know, the, like those types I, that was just an example. But there's lots of you where you kind of bring that down into, you know, what does it mean for us as parents? Can you talk to us a little bit about it?
Kavin: Yeah. I really strived in the book to kind of demonstrate how to do this as parents. But it's often hard for one parent to do it. I also kind of demonstrate how we can reach out to our community and find these answers together. And, and talk about how these answers affect us. But yes, the correlation versus causation piece, let's but basically often when a correlation between a specific parenting choice is assumed to be causal, that assumption helps uphold injustice and an inequitable status quo. So to give an example, let's say that we have a headline in the news or something saying like ordering fast food causes x bad thing that we don't like. So then what happens is that because we don't want, let's Okay, let's say that the ex bad thing we don't like is heart disease in this example. So then there comes this tendency to place the onus on individual parents to um Okay, if you feed your kid fast food and they end up giving them disease, you're giving them heart disease. And, and you kind of internalize this a little bit and then what happens is you absolve those in power for their role in those negative outcomes. So we know that heart disease is something very complex and it's you know, it's genetic and environmental and it has to do with social determinants of health. And then, you know, all that other stuff, epigenetics, you know.
Laura: And it can be distilled down to one food choice.
Kavin: And so,again, in this example, then if we only put forth sufficient effort to say, cook these cookbook meals from scratch like or like Mediterranean diet type of dishes, if we in this sort of narrative, which I would consider a, a spurious narrative, as much as I, as much as I love a home cooked meal in this narrative, like we parents can avoid these unwanted outcomes if we only put forth sufficient effort. And yeah, as I said that it then contributes to absolving the systems that are causing a lot of these outcomes like the rate of, of heart disease.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah, I love what you're saying because there's almost like two paths of harm here. One is the levels of crushing anxiety and like that it can make parents take on, right? Just like, like, yeah, we are, we think of ourselves as so impactful, right? Like we are going to ruin our kids' lives if we don't do everything perfectly. Right? This is the messaging that comes from that, right? So there's that one path of harm and then there's this other path of absolving. I had not really considered it in that way that we are by focusing so much on these individual choices. We are ignoring the context that is that this is all embedded in. Right.
Kavin: Yeah. And you know, it's not to say of course that there's no individual responsibility for you and I to make sure that our kids like getting to their doctor's appointments and like eating all their food groups. I don't know if you have any selection eaters, but I definitely have one selective eater. So I'm constantly trying to make sure that this one is getting enough of all of the nutrients that, you know, require nutrients for, grow, like growing and doing, you know, having a good attention span at school and that kind of thing. So, yeah, it's not to let, let myself off the hook or let anybody off the hook. However, I think it empowers us to kind of tease out where are those individual decisions and actions able to really make a difference for our kids and then where are we kind of making a feudal effort where we could be spending that energy in our communities trying to strive for the world that we want in a broad sense.
Laura: How, so how do we make those decisions? How do we know when, when we're face, like when we're facing a one of those moments that, you know, is, is futile or is impactful? How do we tease that apart for ourselves?
Kavin: Right. Again, the book goes through several examples, but the first one, I'll touch on the first one and most of the most of chapter two talks about this and, I apologize, I hope like that this doesn't bring certain people adding you on, on social media because it, it can be controversial, but I wish it wasn't. And that is the question of feeding infants, you know, that the book often goes back to food because like food choices are so interesting. And so, of course, the first thing that infants have is milk and or formula or human milk. And the prevailing view in hospitals everywhere, childbirth classes everywhere, like cultures everywhere. Is this idea that exclusive breastfeeding is best and so exclusive breastfeeding is the advice that a newborn and an infant should receive only human milk and nothing but human milk for the first six sixish months of their life before the introduction of solid food. And there's this idea that the science says that this exclusive breastfeeding model is natural and the way that it is always done by humans. And that the science shows that this exclusive human milk diet imperative causes better outcomes. And that in that way, feeding and baby formula causes unwanted outcomes. And there are all kinds of outcomes connected to this. And so I talk a little bit about my experience in the book, but this experience is so common and that is you're told that exclusive breastfeeding is ideal, it's optimal. And I've reported on this a whole lot. So I'm kind of really immersed in this world. I've, I've spoken to so many people with various experiences. And so when my first child was born, I was told to just constantly nurse the baby. If the baby cries, nurse the baby and if you're nursing the baby, then the baby will be satiated and have enough fluids and nutrition.
And what I learned is that, this can work for some or even many people, but also for some or many people, it does not work and it never has for everybody. Never. If you mean, if you look back in history, like humans have been, humans have been supplementing milk for, since, yeah, in, in so many ways. And so the trajectory, it's interesting how the trajectory of the science has been itself kind of the path of this science has been influenced so much by this assumption because, and then the book goes into why is, you know, is human milk causing these better outcomes? Because observe, when we observe humans in, in all, in pretty much all settings, infants who are breastfed, maybe not exclusively, but you know, depending on the study who are breastfed end up with, with better outcomes specifically lower rates of respiratory illnesses and, and other conditions. And then there's also science or I mean, we could say I'm putting science in, in air quotes here, you know, that suggest everything from breast milk contributing to a higher IQ or even better educational and professional attainment.
And then there's like based on this assumption being these studies to kind of legitimize that. And, and there's, there's a lot of detail and complexity to this, but ultimately what I've, what I've learned and what I'm very convinced about and I'm a, a loud advocate for is that any way to feed an infant in by known safe means is a great way to feed your infants. And this is not something that I as a journalist say. But when, when you look at the science, that's what the science says. And, you know, there's all this, there's a lot of interesting and compelling research about the components of breast milk and how they can, you know how they have really interesting effects. What there isn't, is conclusive or even convincing science at all to suggest that breastfeeding your baby is as I'm paraphrasing here. But a pediatrician that I spoke with for the book said, breastfeeding your infants or not breastfeeding your infant isn't going to be the difference between like bull vaulting for Yale and struggling to make ends meet. And he I'm rambling here but it like study design is really important when we're drawing conclusions. And this pediatrician brought up an example that reminded me of the importance of sibling studies. So there, there are all these studies comparing breast fed infants to formula fed infants from different families and that data suggests that the the breastfed infants end up doing better. But the book talks about how there are so many confounding factors when it comes to whether someone, when it comes to breastfeeding, people and people who are not breastfeeding in the United States, for instance, people who are able to breastfeed for longer, periods of time are more likely to either be able to take off of work to do so or to have um flexible jobs that allow pumping of and storing of milk, which is tedious.
Whereas people who formula feed for whatever reason, have to go back to work right away. Then we have the question of clean water and safe formulas like this. None of this is to let the formula industry off the hook because the formula industry should be on the hook for a lot. But that doesn't mean that formula is bad for your kids. So yeah, I'm, I'm gambling here but I think just so many interesting ways to examine this, I guess like one part of in terms of like just decision making that the book touches on is it's easy for these ideologies that are couched in the language of science to convince us that we're that we're doing the right thing, right? And, and with the, with this question of feeding an infant comes this idea that breastfeeding is free whereas formula costs money, which is, and I can see you laughing because we all know that our time isn't for free and that our money, the expenditures are not free.
Laura: Like, I mean, and even that brings in this bigger question of how do we value women's or folks who are breastfeeding bodies and time, you know, I mean, gosh, the idea that it's where he is, you know, in and of itself is a, you know, interesting thing to think about. I think it's one of the things.
Kavin: Because people are convinced, like, ok, yeah, that is free. And then what does that mean about how I feel about myself? But anyway, I interrupted you.
Laura: No, no, these are really good things to be thinking about. I think that overall, I feel like what I want our listeners to take away today is that it is natural and normal to want what's best for our kids. And when we focus so narrowly on making those right decisions with this idea that our child's, you know, ultimate success hinges on these minute everyday decisions that we're making. It. I don't, I feel like we're missing, missing the bigger picture. And what I appreciate about your book is the invitation to think broader about beyond just our child. And the way is that just our actions are influencing this one child versus kind of where your positionality in the world. And then also the idea that I, I think, I guess always with my listeners and with the folks who work with me one on one. My hope is that they will leave their time with me feeling more confident within themselves to make those decisions with it, like within themselves to be discerning and critical consumers of information. And I like that, your book teaches folks how to do that, how to question a common narrative and think a little bit more critically about the content that's coming in and what it means for us and what it actually means for our kids and for our communities.
Kavin: Yeah. Just yes, thinking more broadly is something that I'm constantly striving for and it's, you know, it's something that we, I think that we all want to do. For sure, I mean, and, and this applies to how we think about the chemicals and exposures in our homes. And then those and the chemicals and exposures in our, in our community. And, and you also touched on earlier, like another outside of like decision making about kids, like how we feed our kids or how we what kind of transportation we use, you know, whether it be an electrical vehicle or something else. The other big chunk of the book and there's also a correlation versus causation piece here is we need to broaden our understanding of the rich variation of humanity. And so it kind of goes into how we see ourselves and how that affects how we, you know, how our Children see themselves reflected in us and vice versa. And so the book, like another really common idea, even for, even for people who believe that love is love and people who believe that trans rights are human rights and that trans girls are girls and trans boys are boys and non binary, people are non binary.
There's still this idea that the book drills down into and that is that there's this fallacious but really widespread assumption which is kind of at the, at the top of a lot of minds. Right now that sex and gender are biologically binary, coming down to genetics or xy or XX chromosomes and then go now be that testicles or ovaries and, and genitalia and that this, you know, while somebody may be trans or gender non conforming biologically, everybody is biologically male or female. But the thing is again, as we're thinking, not only about our own kids, but everybody, this binary ideology about both sex and gender, which are distinct concepts but related concepts as the book discusses causes acute harm to trans kids frankly up to and including premature death. But what most parents and other adults who care about Children don't realize is that this very same assumption about genetics and genitalia also harms cisgender kids and adults. So there is a lot of nuance and scientific context around that. But I think really what's most beautiful about humanity is that it's so much richer and more charismatic than we have been hard to understand. So when it comes to even ethnicity or sex or gender, like instead of thinking as say sex and gender as binaries, so, you know, black or white or even pink or blue, it's and it's, it's not even a rainbow the way we conceptualize in a flag, even though I love, you know, all the diversity flags. But it's like just this prism that's like constantly melding and dynamic and moving and humanity isn't static and humanity isn't binary or easily, you know, categorized as we would, you know, as we kind of have been taught to see it.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah, I really, I just, I love that overarching message of kind of learning how to sit in the not knowing and delight in the curiosity that, that evokes and just being open to, to the I love that prismatic word. I got that really highlights and captures those things. And I think a lot of parents individually are open to seeing their children kind of unfurl in that way. And it's so nice to think about, can we broaden that to all the kids in our community having the opportunity to unfurl in that way, right?
Kavin: And then unfurling like while certain detractors might make it sound sordid or, you know, an evil way to approach Children developing. It's really very wholesome, like in reality, it's so wholesome. And I'm like there are these fear mongers that want people to think that anti racism is not wholesome or that understanding that sex and gender are a spectrum rather than a binary is not wholesome, but that's a lie. And so, and, and it's just interesting how science really comes into the picture here. The book really acknowledges that we should not need science to affirm the humanity of all people and affirm the identities of all people, including gender, non conforming Children. But alas like, especially in the atmosphere right now, sometimes you really need scientific arguments to fight against bigotry. And when, you know, if you need to, you know, I say, like if you are going to go to an intellectual fight, like you gotta bring the armaments and I, I don't necessarily like putting it that way, but that's how it feels sometimes. And so the, the science that we have, like if we know how to look at it and really see the big picture, but science is clear that humanity is so much more prismatic than we believe and always has been. And it, and it, and when it hasn't, when it hasn't, that's because there has been an agenda to erase that reality, you know.
Laura: And from the people who like an agenda based on who is asking the questions and who like where things are getting published and who's authoring the story. Absolutely. 100%. Kavin, thank you so much for this rich and dynamic conversation. I really appreciate it. I'm sure the listeners are going to want to know where, you know, I'm sure they can find your book wherever books are sold. Although getting it from your local independent bookseller is probably the best thing to do. Where else can they learn more from you or read your works?
Kavin: Yeah. So I, I'm a, as I said, I'm a science writer so you could read my work on all kinds of fun stuff. One recent, one of my favorite examples to give is I got an assignment from one of my favorite clients sci-show, which is a, a great science program. One day a couple years ago, they're like, could you write about whether people could get pregnant in space? And I'm like, I think I can do that. But anyhow, yes, you could read and look at my work at my website www.kavinsenapathy.com. I'm kind of in a limbo of which social media to settle on now that I don't love Twitter anymore. Although I am there at Casey. But I'm liking Instagram and Threads. So I'm at Kavin Senaphathy on those. And yeah, you can, you can generally find me. I'm fairly accessible. So yeah, this has been such a fun conversation again, I could spend hours talking to you.
Laura: So, one of my favorites. So I was looking through your articles on your web page and you have one in forms that I, I didn't realize was written by you, but I had read when it came out in 2016 that I really appreciated the pitfalls of natural parenting. Yeah, so I highly recommend listeners when you go to her website, you know, click on her works and writing page. That's I think the top one on for. So it's an old article but still really, really great as a section mom. I was really pleased with it. Yeah. And I also, you know, I also just wanted to say I really appreciated your nuanced discussion of attachment parenting too. So, Yes, I, yeah, I hope listeners check out your works. Thank you so much, Kavin.
Kavin: Yes. Thank you.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!