Episode 192: How to Actually Heal Trauma That Is Affecting Your Parenting with Dr. Frank Anderson
/In our latest episode of The Balance Parent Podcast, we’ll explore using our past experiences to understand ourselves deeply and ensure we don't pass on negative patterns to our children. Joining me for this insightful conversation is Dr. Frank Anderson, a world-renowned trauma expert, Internal Family Systems expert and trainer, psychiatrist, and the author of the book “To Be Loved”.
Here are the topics we tackled in the episode:
Dr. Frank’s deep attachment trauma and how he has healed over the years
Recognizing our child’s invitation to personal growth and actionable steps in healing while parenting
Healing old wounds using Internal Family Systems and seeking solutions beyond therapy
Shifting self-criticism to self-compassion for lasting healing and change
Understanding and working with inner critic for personal growth
Taking responsibility without being burdened by guilt or shame
To learn more about Dr. Frank and his work, visit frankandersonmd.com. Connect with him on social media via Instagram @frank_andersonmd, Facebook @frankandersonmd, and Tiktok @frankandersonmd.
Resources:
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we have an incredible opportunity to learn and dig into how we can use the hard things that have happened in our past to more deeply understand ourselves and make sure that we are not kind of reperpetuating them on our kids. To help me with this conversation, I have Doctor Frank Anderson. He is an author of beautiful book that we're not actually gonna talk about today called Transforming Trauma. And we are gonna talk a little bit about his memoir, which is just this gorgeous vulnerable look into how the hard things that happen to us form who we are. Doctor Frank Anderson, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you. Will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do and then we'll dive in to how this all fits into parenting?
Dr. Frank: Sure, sure. Who, who am I? And what do I do? Boy, that's a, that's becoming a longer list. It's a longer list. The older that I get sometimes I hear people read my bios. I'm like, holy cow. I have done a lot. I've been very busy for a long time and did my residency many, many years ago at Harvard Medical School and worked in a psychiatric hospital that was mostly um people who are homeless and had no insurance. So right from an early start of my training, I was able to work with people with severe mental illness who had horrible trauma histories. So really, my whole training has been kind of dealing with trauma in many different forms. And, you know, being someone who's not only a therapist, psychiatrist, also a client myself, had been in therapy for a really, really long time and thought I had, you know, at one point, honestly, during my residency program in, in Boston, I was in therapy for 5 times a week for 11 years. So really long.
Laura: That's intense.
Dr. Frank: Really long time. You know, it was kind of like a form of analytic treatment even though I'm not a big fan of analysis. And then I really thought I'd got my crap together, honestly. I was like, all right, I'm good. I found a really wonderful man to raise a family with. And so I was like, ready to sail off into the sunset honestly. And then I had children and boy did that activate a whole different layer of things for me in a way.
Laura: They really crack us open, don't they?
Dr. Frank: Oh, my goodness. In a way I could have never really anticipated honestly because I had done so much work beforehand. So that layer a very deep young physical emotional attachment trauma really recently with my kids and shot me back into therapy for a third round of my life. And that was where I would say my biggest learning has been honestly in my life is, is raising children.
Laura: Tell me more about that. Can you tell me just a little bit about what that's like because I think everybody listening is in the throes of that right now. I don't know how old your kids are, but like we are, we are in the midst of it in the thick of it. And I think it's incredibly brave to see the struggles that we have in raising our kids as an open invitation for healing and growth. And I, I guess it also feels really daunting. So, can you tell me a little bit about how you approach that for yourself?
Dr. Frank: Yeah. So I'm, it's, I'm in the thick of it in a very different way than I used to be. I'll say that, I don't know that you're ever out of the thick of it. Honestly.
Laura: It's just, it's a different thick of it.
Dr. Frank: It’s a different thick. That's the way I think about it, right? My kids just turned 2016 last week. So I have two boys and they're 2016. So it's a whole different layer of what we're dealing with now than what we dealt with when they were, you know, infants or toddlers or in school age. And you know, to have my second adolescent now who's also on the spectrum. It's fascinating to kind of see him go through that developmental phase in my oldest son was so funny. I mean, because we really struggled with him as I write about in the book. But my oldest son said to my youngest son, he's like, look, I've done what you're doing and you think, you know everything, but you don't. Do yourself a favor and listen to them. They know what they're talking about. I never knew that, but I know it now. So listen to them and save yourself a lot of trouble. And I was, like, holy cow. You know, I couldn't, my oldest, like, had that. I'm like, you're pre cortex.
Laura: That insight.
Dr. Frank: Developing. Yeah, it was so cute that he would said this to his brother on his birthday. Their birthdays are a day apart. And so it was really kind of a cool moment. But boy, it has been, it has been a really challenging, challenging journey, something that I would have never expected. You know, school was always a safe haven for me getting good grades. It was kind of my, excuse me. It was kind of my exit out of the kind of an abusive household. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm gonna raise these kids and they're gonna be really smart and they're gonna, you know, I'm gonna give them all the love I didn't have and, you know, they, I'll just, it'll be a total, you know, 360 corrective experience right from my childhood to what I'm saying. Boy, it was the farthest thing from that. I, I always say you get what you need, not what you want.
Laura: Yes.
Dr. Frank: Children, right? 100%. And that's been my experience. And I've learned, I've learned a tremendous amount from both of them in ways. I didn't even know that I needed to learn. Honestly, I kind of, they have pushed me in ways. They pushed me in ways that I pushed my parents in a bizarre kind of recreation. So we talk about transgenerational trauma, but we don't talk about transgenerational lessons, you know, I grew up.
Laura: Tell me more.
Dr. Frank: Yeah, I grew up as a gay kid in the midwest in a conservative family. So I was everything in the world my parents didn't want, you know, I talk about it in the book. I went to conversion, a form of conversion therapy. Honestly, when I was in six years old because I got caught playing with Barbie doll. And so I was the kid who my parents couldn't relate to, didn't really want and pushed them towards acceptance in a way that was such a stretch and a reach for them. And then I have these two kids. First of all, they're boys, my husband and I had really tough relationships with their fathers. The last thing we wanted was boys. Why led along two of them, right? So that in of itself was challenging, but they were, they're both everything we're not, everything we're not, you know, one person, a friend of ours once said your oldest son has more testosterone in him than the two of you put together. You know, like he was this rough and tumble and cars and crashing kind of kid, you know, and it forced both my husband and I to accept difference way earlier than my parents were able to do. You know what I mean?
Laura: Yeah.
Dr. Frank: Way earlier. I was like, oh, my goodness. At least I didn't wait till 32 years of age to accept who these kids were that I really was challenged to accept the difference. And it was kind of a flip, you know, I was a sensitive, sensitive, sweet, gentle kid growing up with this kind of rough and hyper masculine, you know, ma macho Italian mafia mindset and my kids are like flip, you know what I mean? I was like, why you play the piano? Do you have to ride a motorcycle? Like to ride a motorcycle? Do you have to do mountain biking and jump off cliffs? Like please ride a motorcycle. You know what I mean? So it's like I really think it caused me to really expand my capacity for acceptance of difference, you know, being somebody who marginalized, you know, that's what happened.
Laura: Yeah, I can, I can I dive in there just a little bit because I do think our kids invite us into that personal growth space into accepting affirming who they are, releasing attachment to our expectations for what it was going to be like and coming to understand the kids we got versus the kids we thought we were going to have. And I'm curious about in the midst of recognizing that they're inviting you to do this, right? Because that's the first step. Recognizing like in the midst of all this conflict, in the midst of us having rough edges and not necessarily fitting together the way we thought we were going to that there's an invitation there. What is once you recognize that invitation? What is something that, like, something tangible that parents can do? So, they've slowed down, they've noticed that invitation. That's sometimes a very difficult thing to do. But most of the parents who are listening to this podcast have done that they're there. What is the next step after your? Okay, so my kids are inviting me. What do we do then?
Dr. Frank: Do your own work. I mean, that's really what it is like that invitation. That invitation is not about changing them in any way, shape or form. It's not about them. That invitation, that awareness is about you and your history and what you need to grow in, not what your kids need to change. It's like you need to fit their world, you need to fit into their world. They do not need to fit into your world. And boy, I've learned that like no other with my son who's like I said, the youngest on the spectrum, the whole world is expecting him to behave a certain way.
Laura: Yeah.
Dr. Frank: You know?
Laura: The world was a need for him.
Dr. Frank: The world what you, well, it's like, well, I got this really clear kind of message if you will. We were, we once we were in the CVS and at the checkout line and he was having a total meltdown for whatever reason. I don't even know. And he was throwing things off the counter and the woman behind the counter was just so ju ju man nasty, like what's wrong with you? And why can't you behave your, why can't you have your kids behave? You know what I mean? And it was in that moment that I was like, I am done getting to have this kid fit into this world. The world needs to fit into him. He doesn't need to the world, you know what I mean?
Laura: I do.
Dr. Frank: And and that's the attitude, that attitude changed a lot for me because I had so much stress and reactivity pressure to get him to behave a certain way, which wasn't who he was.
Laura: Yes, I have, my oldest is on the spectrum as well. And I, so I really resonate with that. I I think there is so much pressure within us to make our kids acceptable. We want them so desperately to be accepted and to be loved, right? And that's the, you know, that's the name of your memoir To Be Loved. We want that. Yeah, we want that so desperately for them. And I love what you're saying here is that if we want that for them, it's, it's actually shifting, right? Because we got the message growing up that we needed to change something within ourselves in order to be lovable. What we're trying to do with our kids now is recognize that they are inherently lovable. And the work is actually within us, within society to, to make those shifts and changes so that we can just love people from fully and, you know, just exactly as they are, you know?
Dr. Frank: And that energy shift is profound for the kid because even if you're not saying anything, they feel it, they feel the wrongness they really do with the look or the judgment or the whatever. So when parents can get to that, like, I don't need my kid to fit into the world, I need the world to fit into them. It opens up the energetic like you're good just the way you are, you know, and I'll teach you how to be in the world that's different than making you fit into the world, you know, hard, right? It's hard for my youngest to fit into the to fit into the world because the world doesn't work according to the way he experiences things like it's a tiny little example but profound lesson for me. He was, you know, in the regular school system, our town school system till fifth grade. And then he went to a therapeutic community in sixth grade where he's now a sophomore in high school.
So a couple of years ago, we went to the, with swing sets at the school in the center of town. And he was older than he was probably, uh, you know, seventh or eighth grade, but he gets on these swings and jumps on the slide and all this stuff. He said when I was here in school, they made me play on the playground, but I was too unstable and I felt like I was gonna fall all the time, but they kept forcing me to play with the other kids. And I never wanted to be on this. He said, but now because I do taekwondo in gym class, I have more stability. And then he's like here he is in 8th, 7th or 8th grade with all these little kids and he's gaining agency on the swing set, right? He's taller and bigger than everybody, but nobody knew that he didn't feel the stability to be on the swing set. And you know, kids can't articulate that
Laura: They can't. Yeah.
Dr. Frank: They can't. So it was so so profound to me, like how much we try to make these kids fit in? Like, can we can we listen to them when, when things aren't right for them. I was recently drove him, he loves indoor water parks. And so we went to an indoor water park for his birthday, which was so fun, just him. And I stayed overnight to the whole thing. I opened the window because I, I love fresh air. Right? And it's March and it's kind of cold. So I opened the window and he's, like, close the window. It's like nails on a chalkboard, nails on a chalkboard. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, when the, the pressure from the wind, when you open your window is so intense for me, I can't stand it. And I was like, oh my gosh.
Laura: That's beautiful articulation.
Dr. Frank: Right? And who knew that opening a window would be like kind of painful for him. I'm like, I just want the fresh air. So it's, it's those kinds of things to really expand our capacity for listening and trusting what's right for our kids versus, you know, it's Easter Sunday, you need to behave and you need to blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. But you need to like everybody wear the fun outfit and you know, be, don't throw the eggs if you're doing whatever it is, you know. So I'm not, I'm not saying, don't teach children. That's not what I'm saying. Kids need to be taught how to be in the, you know, how to interact with the world but making them who they aren't is not the solution here. It only makes it worse.
Laura: Yeah, I agree so much. Can I read a passage from your book that really resonated with me and I think will hit home for other parents too?
Dr. Frank: Yeah.
Laura: So, in this part of the book you're talking about how, despite you knowing what to do. It was quite hard to actually do what you knew you're supposed to do and you would get triggered sometimes by your kids and their behavior. So you said nevertheless, the stress triggered outburst didn't stop. Instead, I became even more critical and self loathing whenever I lost control. I knew what healthy parenting looks like. I taught it for a living in my workshops and coach clients who were struggling with their children. Most important, I had vowed never to be like my father with my children. Despite the physical distance I'd created with my dad, he remained alive and active inside me.
I was capable of yelling at my kids just like he yelled at me. think we have all felt that we've all felt our, our mom's voice fall out of our mouth in those moments where we don't have, feel like we have control. And I think that that's the number one thing I hear from parents is that they are wanting to stop that cycle. They are wanting to do something different with their kids and they just don't know how to do. They know the thing that they're supposed to do. They don't know how to actually do it in the moment. And I want you before you said that they need to do their work. What does that look like?
Dr. Frank: Yeah. And it's interesting like you, when you're activated, when you, when your history gets activated, you do lose agency and control. Like I knew, I totally knew what appropriate it was 100%.
Laura: It's like watching a, a though you can't take your eyes off of it and it's just happening in front of you. Yeah.
Dr. Frank: That's exactly right. And, and that's a very painful thing for me. It was anyway. So painful to become what was done to me. Like, most victims, like, there's nothing worse than to become the perpetrator from which you were victimized from. Like that's what makes people suicidal when you do what was done to you. Like that's what makes people say, forget it. I'm out of here. And that's when I have felt suicidal in my life is when I perpetuated the very thing that I was a of the recipient of and that's an in, that's a powerful kind of come to Jesus moment so to speak. It brings you to your knees around your helplessness and your vulnerability. And there was a moment I think I describe it when my son was like broke, broke our vanity in our bathroom.
And then he went into his bathroom and he was like banging on the shower door, the glass door, it almost fell on him and I just gave up. That was a moment. I was like, I cannot control this, I cannot control this. And so to kind of stop trying so hard to fix it, make it right. Control it is huge and it does take a pause, it takes a pause. You know, it's like, okay, I am I and not make this happen. So this acknowledgment of willing your way into a solution and giving that up or controlling your child. So that because really what we're doing is we're using perpetrator energy that we've been the recipient of because our wounds are activated and so we're using the thing that was done to us so that our kids will stop activating our wounds. I'm gonna say this.
Laura: Say it again, please.
Dr. Frank: I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna give an example of this because this, this couple is huge and this is what people don't understand. This is what they don't about us, not about our children, but we've picked the perfect children to activate our wounding.
Laura: Yes, yes of course.
Dr. Frank: It doesn't get better choices than that, right? And like this couple that I talked about that I was working with this last week, I'm, I'm talking to the woman on the phone and I'm hearing in the background the father yelling and screaming and grabbing the kid because the kid was refusing to go to the therapists appointment. Like he slept in, he overslept his alarm and I saw the father escalate more and more get more and more desperate and more and more abusive. Like if you don't do this, I'm gonna take away your phone for a month and I do like it just kept escalating, escalating the father. And I said, I said to the mom, I'm like, ask him what the worst case scenario is here. What is his fear? What is the worst case scenario? And then he couldn't really answer that. He'll be late and bla bla bla I'm like, and then what, and then what, like what's the worst case scenario here? He misses an appointment? And then the second question I asked was what would happen if he acted like his son when he was growing up, that's where it totally hit him. Because if he acted like his son, he would have gotten beaten,
Laura: Yes, yeah.
Dr. Frank: Right? He wasn't beating his yelling at him. But, and that was, that's the hook. It's like I'm gonna stop you because your behavior is so scary and dangerous to my system because if I did that, I would have gotten killed, right? So if I stop you, I can stop my trauma from showing up.
Laura: I can feel safe.
Dr. Frank: Yeah, I could feel safe because my history doesn't get activated because your behavior being defiant, yelling at your parents. If I did that, I would have been beaten or whatever, you know. So when you do it, it terri, when you do it, it terrifies my little boy inside. Right? That's the piece that people don't understand enough because 123, you know, six signs for this, all of the stuff to try to change parents' behavior doesn't work.
Laura: It doesn't work, no.
Dr. Frank: Because
Laura: I'm with you.
Dr. Frank: It doesn't we try you have a wound and changing your child's behavior. So they won't activate. Your history is not fair to them.
Laura: Oh, say that. So, changing your child's behavior so they won't activate your history is not fair to them. I love that.
Dr. Frank: You're not, you're not acknowledging who they are. You're needing them to be something else, so they won't activate your history.
Laura: So that you can be okay.
Dr. Frank: Yeah.
Laura: Yeah. So, there's a piece of this that is really taking radical responsibility for yourself and for your own wounds and your own history. Yeah.
Dr. Frank: Well, and that's hard for people to do because it's taking responsibility for what was done to you.
Laura: Yeah.
Dr. Frank: See, that's what's hard taking responsibility for what was done to you because you're not responsible for what was done to you, but you are responsible for releasing the pain around it.
Laura: Okay.
Dr. Frank: Because if you don't, if you don't, you will transgenerational, perpetuate it.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Dr. Frank: When my son, my oldest, when my oldest son, when, when my oldest son loses it and he's a teenager and there's a lot of dropping the F bomb and all this stuff and, you know, I hate you and all this, this regulated normal kid behavior. I don't react anymore. I don't react anymore. That behavior used to terrify me and I would do everything in my power to stop it. Now I hold steady, I hold my center and I let it be all about him and not about me because as soon as we yelling, as soon as we start yelling and threatening consequences and escalating, then it becomes about both of us. I joined him in his dysregulation instead of my ability now because I've healed those wounds. I don't get activated. I could be, I could be with his dysregulation. But when your kid's behavior activates your history, you can't be with it in an effective way. You get taken over.
Laura: Yeah, you get taken over. Can we start talking a little bit about parts work now?
Dr. Frank: Yeah, sure.
Laura: Because you're starting to use a little bit of parts language and I, I love it. I'm here for it. So my audience knows a little bit about internal family systems. And so I'm curious then. So if you, are you recognizing? Okay, so my kids behavior is activating old wounds within me. What do we do then to heal those wounds?
Dr. Frank: Yeah, so I.
Laura: And beyond getting a therapist, right? Because we probably need one.
Dr. Frank: That's one of the things that's one of the things that's super important to me is I'm aware that there's not enough therapy, resources for everyone.
Laura: Of course, yes.
Dr. Frank: And everybody can't afford it. So, one of my missions, you know, I just started a trauma institute a week ago. I launched a trauma institute.
Laura: Oh, exciting.
Dr. Frank: Yeah. Yeah. It's super exciting and it's bringing, it's bringing integrated trauma treatment to the general public and to the next generation of therapists because I feel like we need to translate therapeutic material and teach the general public.
Laura: And make it accessible.
Dr. Frank: Yes.
Laura: That's why I have my podcast, but I'm with you on the mission.
Dr. Frank: Exactly. Right. Exactly. Like I can't do it alone. We all need to do it together. But this is the way because there are so many people that don't have access to that and people that don't want to go and visit their histories, they're like,.
Laura: That’s scary.
Dr. Frank: That's why I got married and left the house. I wanted to get away from it. I didn't want to go back to it, you know, but there is a way to safely visit, not relive your history. You know, there's three main components to healing that I teach about. And this is kind of rooted in some neuroscience knowledge also is first, the exper the overwhelming experience needs to be witnessed. The part that experienced the trauma needs to share it with somebody. It could be you the parent, the adult. Now it could be a therapist, it could be a friend. So the experience needs to be witnessed fully, not just the story.
Laura: The emotionality of it, the.
Dr. Frank: Exactly.
Laura: Not the elevator version, the the real version.
Dr. Frank: 100% 100 per all of it like the physical sensations, the emotions, the the distorted thinking around responsibility. It was my fault. I'm bad and wrong. Once that's shared, the part is not the only holder of the information, right? The part is shared. If somebody else gets this too, then there needs to be a corrective experience, what science calls disconconfirming. So the part feels loved, instead of hated, the part feels seen, instead of neglected. Right? There needs to be a corrective experience in some way. Once those two critical steps occur, sharing the experience and having a corrective experience, then the park's able to let it go. That's when the park can release what it's carrying. And that's an important thing for people to kind of pay attention to that, that there is, it's not just about coming to terms with your history, it's about releasing what you're carrying that doesn't belong to you and then, then you don't get activated anymore. When your kid does the thing, your person's side is not activated in the same way. That's the, that's the real message around healing from my perspective.
Laura: Yeah. Okay. So I think that I want to go back to in this part of your book where you mentioned that you tended to be very critical and self loathing when you saw yourself making those mistakes and what you just shared is so different from self criticism and self loathing, right? So what you just shared is compassion, witnessing, being caring towards yourself to the part that was carrying these things. I, I think so many parents are trying to make changes in their outward behavior by using the stuff that was used on them, the critical, the shame, the judgment, the blame. And I really just want to highlight that. What you're saying is that if we want healing to happen, if we want change to happen, healing has to happen and that healing has to happen with compassion and grace and love. Yeah?
Dr. Frank: 100% 100%. And the critical part is actually trying to help.
Laura: It is trying to help, yes.
Dr. Frank: Behaved appropriately, frank you idiot, then your kids would be loved. Right?
Laura: Yes, yes.
Dr. Frank: So it's trying to help in a critical way. So you kind of have to appreciate the critic. But you know, I'll say to critics often like, where did you learn how to help that way? It's a question that I ask.
Laura: I like that question.
Dr. Frank: Because you have to understand that even the critics are trying to help mostly internal critics come from parental verbal abuse, they internalize that. But I'm going to use it protectively as opposed to use it destructively. It ends up being self destructive instead of the other. But so yeah, it's an important paradigm shift to be compassionate.
Laura: Yeah, I so I'm thinking about two about so if we're thinking about this from from a parts perspective, there's these parts that are holding these burdens and then there's these other parts that are trying to help, right? Who maybe are the inner critic? You know, so we have to do our work with our inner critic too. We have to witness them, help them learn different skills.
Dr. Frank: Well, what we do with those inner critics or any part that's trying to protect is we have to acknowledge their job, appreciate why they're doing what they're doing and ask them for permission to access the wound. See, we don't, we don't do the same healing process with our protectors, but we have a process with these, you know, the parts that drink the parts that eat the parts get depressed, the parts that yell, whatever it is, the parts that associate, we appreciate their job. We get to know why they're doing what they're doing. We love them up and we get permission to access the wound that they are, trying so hard and failing to protect.
Laura: Yeah. Do you, do you have to spend a lot of time with the protectors first before you can go straight to the wound or?
Dr. Frank: Depends on the trauma history. Like it's variable, some, some of those protective parts, you can develop a relationship with relatively quickly. Others, it takes a long time, you know, and the longer it takes, the more severe the trauma history, I just kind of know that. So I'm not trying to rush it.
Laura: Okay.
Dr. Frank: You know, there's no sense rushing it. You know, I knew what was supposed to happen with my parenting relative to my kids, but it took a long time for me to make those real lasting changes because those wounds that they were protecting, you know, came for me came from very early preverbal trauma. So it was trauma that couldn't be healed like quickly like that, it took time.
Laura: Okay. So I feel like that is gonna land in a scary place for a lot of the parents listening because they feel so much, they so desperately love their kids and they so desperately want to get it right for them. And it's scary to think that this might take time and that along the way that they'll be making mistakes that whole, that whole way as they learn and heal.
Dr. Frank: It's true. Sorry. But it's true.
Laura: Yes.
Dr. Frank: And this is the thing instead of blaming your kids, like take responsibility and it's hard work. Here's the thing. Repair is critical in that process. Repair is critical, okay? You'll have to be able to say I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that. That was my fault. What were you feeling when I did that? Right? Because if parents don't take responsibility for their behavior, the kids will take responsibility for parent behavior 100% of the time. Okay? So while you're in the midst of fixing it, repair, repair, repair, repair and not like, yeah, while you're in the midst of healing, you take you repair, I am. You know, and it's not like why did you, why did you hit your brother? You know, I get mad when your brother, it's, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have gotten mad at you like that. That was wrong. What was it like for you when I yelled? I'm so sorry. So you know, I don't talk about the kids' behavior kind of at all. When I've gotten activated, my hearts take over. It's about repair and connect first. Then you can hear the other side of the story. But parents rush too quick into fixing the problem, the outward problem, not taking responsibility for repairing the, the breach that was just caused with their child.
Laura: Okay. Can I ask?
Dr. Frank: Yeah. Sure. Go ahead.
Laura: Oh, yeah. I just, so I have a few clients who've been working diligently and hard on this or listeners that write to me sometimes and who've been working very hard for a long time and they are not seeing themselves as making progress in their outward behaviors even though I know that they are and they're really good at the repairing piece of it. But they're starting to feel worried that their kids aren't gonna believe them that they're, you know, that they're working on it or that they're trying it. And so I'm, I'm kind of curious if you can, I don't know if you have a message for the, the parents for whom maybe have some significant stuff that they're working through and it's taking longer than they would like.
Dr. Frank: It's a, it's a really hard, painful issue. Like there was a study once that showed one of the most, I hate to say this, but it's, it's one of the most damaging things for children, our parents trauma histories.
Laura: Because it's so hard to hear.
Dr. Frank: Right? I know. I know. It's because kids lose their safe parent. When they get a, when, when they get activated, when the parent gets activated, kids lose their safe parent. It's just the same thing as, like somebody who is an alcoholic. Every time a parent gets drunk, the kid loses their same, their safe parent. So every time we get activated, our kids lose their safe parent. I have this thing, I call the triggering agreement where if a parent gets activated, the other parent steps in.
Laura: Yes, yeah. I have that with my husband.
Dr. Frank: And said daddy he shouldn't have done that. He, that's not the way to act. Like take, give him responsibility, don't throw him under the bus but give him responsibility. What was that like to do? What was going on for you? You know, so that the, that the kid gets, the mo the kid gets as much contact with the non activated parent as possible. And then what? Here's another thing when the parent who was activated recovers to repair. But what I sell, tell my parents is don't engage in repair unless you feel compassion for your child, because most parents feel like, you know, okay, I'm better, I'm better but you shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have hit your brother. You know what I mean? Like, no, no, no, no, no.
Laura: You're not ready.
Dr. Frank: You have to feel you're not ready. You know, sometimes parents try to push that, you know, and you, it is, it is painful. There's another thing that kind of bothers me a little bit is I, I, I don't wanna be, I don't want to perpetuate criticism in parenting because it is a super hard job. But I also don't want to excuse the behavior. Like there, there's this other culture. It's like, oh everybody loses it. It's normal. Like let me feel good about myself. Right? And I'm like, no, when you lose it, it's your responsibility to fix it. It’s not about your kids.
Laura: Okay. So I think that I think you're hitting on something that I wanted to talk with you about too. So you're right. It's not okay. So we're not talking about the repair of trying to make it okay. Right? It's, we're talking about taking responsibility and I think lots of people don't know how to take responsibility without getting weighed down by the crushing guilt of having perpetuated what was done to them. Do you know what I mean? But that.
Dr. Frank: I told like, you gotta be honest with your children, you gotta be authentic and honest with your children taking responsibility and you know, I, you have to speak in developmentally appropriate ways. Like when my kids were younger I said, I'm sorry, I should not have yelled at you. I did that because I was treated that way as a child. And sometimes when I get upset, I'm yelling at you in a way that I shouldn't and I'm sorry, it's not, it's my fault. I should not yell at you. So I'm taking responsibility for my Trump history. Like I was hurt as a child. You know what I mean? I was hurt as a child. This is me. This is not you, you know, and then it's beautiful modeling for kids to see parents take. But then the kids like, well, I'm sorry because I shouldn't have hit my brother, you know, then kids learn how to take responsibility for their actions.
Laura: And repair.
Dr. Frank:You know what I mean? Yeah. So it is.
Laura: But how do you as a, I feel like hearing you say you're able right now from such a centered and self compassionate place to say, yeah, I, I've screwed up. I've made those mistakes. I've done to my kids what my dad did to me, you know, I think that that's very hard for a lot of us to say. I think, I think a lot of us are not there. I think we're way down and mired in guilt and shame about that.
Dr. Frank: And here's the thing too. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Finish. I'm sorry.
Laura: No, no, I just, I kind of been wondering about how to, you know, how to move through that because I think the we can get stuck in the guilt and shame and the self regulation.
Dr. Frank: Because we have not forgiven our perpetrators. And nobody wants to hear this either. Nobody wants to hear this either. I'm sorry. But, and I learned this the hard way I learned this, the hard way it was on I, I say, heal your wounds first, then work on forgiving the person who harmed you. Okay. Some people choose never to forgive and that's fine. That's their choice. What I learned and I was very surprised by this was when I was truly able to have compassion for my father. It was only then that I was able to forgive myself for what I had done because you can't hold somebody else accountable for harm and then forgive yourself for harming.
Laura: Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Dr. Frank: Right?
Laura: Yeah.
Dr. Frank: That's the thing. We're so divided in this country and so many different ways, we're divided all over the world, not just this country. And if we can't really see the good and the bad and the per and the person who harmed us, we can't honestly acknowledge the good and bad in us.
Laura: I mean, gosh, I really, I mean, I just want to pull it out one more time. How can we possibly forgive ourselves for what we've done if we haven't seen the person who harmed us as also worthy of forgiveness?
Dr. Frank: Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
Laura: It's so simple. But I've never heard anybody say that before.
Dr. Frank: That's right. Because this is a new dimension of healing that I learned. This is what I write about in my memoir because I learned that layer of, you know, there's healing the trauma, which is releasing what you're carrying around the experience. Forgiveness is around relational healing of the other who harm you. Right? And again, some people choose to do that. Some people don't. But that's a piece like I know I'm a good parent. I know that now because I've been able to forgive myself, forgive myself. I'm not asking my kids to forgive me, forgive myself for what I did and take responsibility. You know, I say to my kids now because they're older like I, my trial history really got in the way for you and I am sorry about that. I know when reactive and I was intense, that wasn't good for you. And I'm sorry, I wish I could take that back, but I can't. But what I do know is I don't do that anymore and I feel really good about that and I'm sorry that I did it. I did that and it affected you like it's easy to be, it's, it's easy to be human when you could forgive those. It's easier to be human when you can forgive people who have been human, too.
Laura: And human. Yeah. Oh gosh. Frank, thank you so much for this interview. I really loved learning and from you and talking with you. I, I highly recommend your memoir to be loved. I loved reading it.
Dr. Frank: Thank you.
Laura: I read most of it in a day. It was one of those ones that I couldn't stop putting down. I am so, so value your authenticity and vulnerability. And willingness to go there. I appreciate it so much and, and to be truthful and honest with us, even with those truths that are hard to hear. I'm here on the show today. It was so good. I would love to know a little bit more about where my listeners can find you where they can connect maybe with your new institutes.
Dr. Frank: Yeah. Yeah. But, but so, so my website is frankandersonmd.com and everything about me kind of will is connected through the website, the courses, I do the books, I wrote the companies I'm affiliated with. So that's probably the best way. Now the email list, so if you want to follow my work, you can sign up for my email list. I'm pretty active on social media these days and Instagram is frank_andersonmd. I'm on Facebook, I think it's Frank Anderson MD. Tiktok now, I'm on tiktok also. So those you can all get through my website, too. And then the trauma institute is called, is called traumainstitute.com.
Laura: Okay.
Dr. Frank: That's the company traumainstitute.com. I'm also doing, I have another company called Trauma Informed Media which is bringing trauma informed content to Hollywood. So I'm living in L.A.
Laura: Good job.
Dr. Frank: Yeah, it's like if I'm gonna get this message out to the world, you know, that's a really great media. Media can be a harmful tool,.
Laura: Yes.
Dr. Frank: But also a great tool to teach people appropriate ways to deal with trauma. So I hope to accomplish some of that there.
Laura: That's amazing, Frank. Thank you so much for all of that you're bringing to the world. I appreciate it.
Dr. Frank: Thank you so much for having me. I, I hope this will reach, you know, as many people as possible because that's the goal we have to do this together. We can't do it separate, we can't do it alone.
Laura: Yeah, we are, we do. We have to, we're in it together. Yeah. Beautiful.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!