Episode 191: How to Deal with Friend Drama with Sheri Gazitt
/In this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we dive into the world of teen friendships with coach Sheri Gazitt, CEO and founder of Teen Wise. Together, we explore the nuances of friend conflicts that often arise in children's and teens' lives, shedding light on the emotional impact and practical strategies for resolution.
Here are the key topics we covered:
Dynamics of drama and cliques among school-aged girls
Skills for nurturing healthy relationships in young children
Engaging children in social and emotional learning without lecturing
Supporting children who feel excluded and rejected
Why parents feel the need to fix everything for their kids (and what to do instead)
Connecting your own experiences as a teen to your child’s situation in a helpful way
Impact of screen time and gadgets on teens' mental health
Social media and online interactions
Addressing exclusionary or mean behavior in your child
Incorporating parent-supported resources into school curricula
You can connect with Sheri Gazitt, through her website at teen-wise.com. For more parenting insights and resources, join The Parenting Lab on Facebook or follow Teen Wise on Instagram @teenwise.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen. And on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to return to focus on teens, especially our teen girls and how we can help them have thriving healthy relationships with one another and navigates the some of the the drama that comes along with raising our girls and reflecting on our own teen years. So to help me with this conversation, I have coach Sheri Gazitt. She is a passionate advocate for young girls and teens. She wants to empower them to conquer girl drama and create healthy and fulfilling relationships. So she's an advocate for teen mental health and uh works in foundations is on the TV shows and radio appearances. And I'm really happy to have her here. So Sheri, why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do and then we'll dive in and figure out how we can support these wonderful girls in our lives.
Sheri: Yes. Thank you for having me. I am super passionate as you mentioned about what I'm doing and, and so I'll just tell you kind of a little bit about what I do and why I do it. So I have a company called Teen Wise. It was a long road to get here. I've been doing this about 15 years though and I've been in the psychology field for about 30 years and the area that I settled in on is a place where girls need a lot of support and that's friendship issues and peer to peer relationships. And what I noticed is there was a lot of things out there for when they got to crisis mode, when they got to clinical mode. And I'm like, hey, let's get to them before this because every girl needs help. Every girl needs support on interpersonal skills. And it's stuff that doesn't just affect them now, but for the rest of their lives. So I thought, hey, let's get in there and start working in this area so our girls can lift each other up and when they lift each other up, the world's a better place.
Laura: Okay. So I feel like my, so I have two daughters, they're 11 and 9, and they go to a very small private school and there isn't a lot of drama right now at the school, I'm sure there will be. But when my oldest went to public school before the pandemic, there was already drama happening then and they were in first grade. And so I'm kind of curious about it, see, it feels like that's just the way that it is. Do you know what, what is going on for girls that there, that there is? I don't know, this undercurrent of snarkiness or clickings and that happens, is it a fair assessment to say that it happens more for girls and for guys or does it just look different and we talk about it differently culturally? You know, I just feel very curious about this phenomenon.
Sheri: Yeah, it's a great and I work with schools in preschools around this, right? Not when we talk about drama. I want to, first of all say that there's a stigma we have around this, you know, we call it girls are just mean and I hear that so much as parents are trying to support their daughters and we don't want that message out there because girls aren't just mean. They're naturally nurturing it kind and compassionate. So this drama that we see really is girls knowing how important it is to have these close personal relationships. They just haven't learned the skills yet. So in preschool, you see them beginning to do the snarkiness as they're trying to protect this friendship over here. They're, they're, you know, snarky to protect the one over here and, and so it's very complicated. So as we're watching this unfold, we have to remember, they just don't have the skills to bring out that nurturing kind side of them. They're protecting these relationships in a way that's not necessarily healthy and, but they haven't learned yet.
Laura: I really appreciate that reframe so much. I'm seeing that as lacking skills. Okay, so then what are the skills, lots of my listeners have younger kids. And so if we're hoping to have our kids navigate the teen years with front and chips, I'm guessing we start now, we start early and teaching them what are some of the skills that can help kids navigate some of those, you know, protecting their relationships and their friendships, nurturing healthy relationships with their peers and classmates.
Sheri: So they have to understand what a healthy relationship is first, a healthy friendship. And by the way, this leads into healthy romantic relationships as well. Right? So they need to know like, what do they want out of a friendship? What are they getting from that friendship? How are they making that other person feel? So, what are they giving in the friendship? So they need to know that Gavin gets and then it's ok to have feelings of jealousy. Um that in and of itself is not bad. It's about what do you do with those feelings? Is it then that you try to talk badly about this other girl or that you um you know, get really possessive about your friend. So understanding the emotions that go into these friendships as well. But I think one of the keys, one of the biggest things that I like to teach girls is conflict conversations. They don't know how to have conflict and we, as females were wired for whatever reason. And society also gives us the pressure to not be in conflict with people. And so how do we do that nicely? And the teen girls that I work with, they think if they approach their friend and talk about a disagreement that they're going to lose that friendship or that they're being mean and it's really not like that. If you want a deep friendship that's connected, you've got to know how to say, hey, this is bothering me and let's find a solution together.
So it's really, you've got to come and tell this person. I appreciate you so much. I love having you as my friend. I feel really bad when you don't let me play with Annabelle or whoever it is. And you know, next time just let's have her in with us. Let's let her play with us. You know, it sounds very up level for little kids, but you can bring it down to their level and say, here's how you talk to your friend about that and do a role play at home and work through that. So she knows it's okay to disagree, but in a kind and compassionate way, So she can feel like she's got control and power in situations that otherwise may feel like she just has to go along with the flow.
Laura: Yeah, I love that. You know, one thing that I'm thinking about too is that I'm, I'm guessing in modeling those interactions within your own family teaching them how to have collaborative problem solving conversations with siblings or even with your yourself as the parent. Those are also good ways to teach those skills.
Sheri: Yeah. For us to use that method as a parent to say, hey, I love you so much. I'm feeling really frustrated that you haven't put your laundry away.
Laura: Yeah, exactly.
Sheri: How can I support you so we can make sure this gets done every week. You know?
Laura: I love that.
Sheri: It’s made simple.
Laura: Okay, so I feel like I can see a six year old being open to, you know, doing a little bit of, acting something out, practicing an interaction, you know, being open to more of those things. I, I'm guessing that as kids get older they're less and less open to. So those sorts of things. How do we do this? How do we teach these kids who maybe aren't as open or maybe who, you know, don't want to feel like they're being lectured at or? You know what I mean?
Sheri: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I always say it's about a conversation, not a lecture because they're going to tune you out, especially if you're the parents, right? And I have to say that's one reason why parents will bring their kids to me, to coach with me because they know they're at the age where, hey, they're not listening to me anymore. So they actually are listening. First of all, they may just not be accepting and saying thank you so much mom for giving me that information. There's a little part that is listening and taking it in, but lectures are not the answer. It's, you know, like we said, the role modeling, if you start doing that at home, they're going to start seeing how it feels to them and, and mimicking that behavior. The other thing is print something out, leave it on the table, just leave it there, you know, and have them look at it and they may say, what's this? They may take it in the room. You know, so it can be some indirect ways also.
Laura: Okay. So I'm kind of curious about the, I feel like we've been talking a, a little bit from the perspective of the kid who is maybe being left out, being excluded. What are some way, some more ways that we can support a kiddo who's feeling like, you know, like they're being excluded. I, I guess I, I'm just trying to think about, you know, those kiddos who are maybe struggling and feeling that way, but don't necessarily express it outright to us, but we know something's off like what are some of the, the ways that we can get them talking about it without trying to go in and fix it for them.
Sheri: Oh, I like that. One of the big things I talk about all the time is we don't have to fix it. And in fact, if you're trying to get your kids to open up to you, if you go in with the mindset of, I need to find a solution. I need to fix it. That's going to repel them. It's gonna, they're not gonna want to come and talk to you because they're like, oh my gosh, you know, mom's always trying to fix that and you know, a lot of times I just want to talk. So I think one of the things if our kids aren't opening up instead of thinking I need to go and I need to say, hey, what's wrong? I need to, you know, get the details so I can get in there and fix it. Think about connection instead if you think about I need to connect with my daughter, I know something's going on. I'm gonna take her to get boba or I'm gonna play a board game or take her for a walk or help her clean her room. There's gonna be conversations that come up more naturally that way than coming straight in and saying, how are you? I notice you're down doesn't mean those conversations should never be had. Sometimes you gotta just straight up, say that, but that's gonna work better if you have the kid who opens up all the time with the kid who kind of shuts down a little bit. It's all about connection, connection, connection. And if they are having a hard time connection is the antidote to loneliness. So that's gonna be very helpful.
Laura: Good. And I think it's so important always to state, you know. So I think parents get bombarded with this idea of connection. It's, I really like the way that you were phrasing it here because it's so important that we, we don't use connection as a means to an end. But we understand that within connection, that conversation will flourish, right? That relationship flourishes and more will come out of it, you know, but the connection itself is the is the end in and of itself.
Sheri: Yeah, and I want to say about that Laura, like as, as kids get older, our connection is often transactional. We've got to get them to practice. We need to make sure their homework is done, you know, we need to make sure their chores are done. So all, you know, our kid walks in, what homework do you have? Or they come out of their room for that one moment? And you're like, did you get your chores done? So we have to think about that connection is so important and then the to do list the transactional stuff is second.
Laura: Oh, I really, really love that, too. And, and I, I mean, choosing our timing well and seeing our kids. I my my daughter who's 11 has started taking, very meticulous and special care and preparing her guinea pigs a nightly meal. You know guinea pigs?
Sheri: I love that.
Laura: I mean, if you are thinking about getting guinea pigs, like we've heard that they were very easy pet, they're not easy. They eat a lot of vegetables, they eat more vegetables than my kids put together, you know. But, she's been really like meticulously and carefully taking care of preparing a delicious salad for her guinea pig. But she does it at like when we say like, okay, it's, you know, dinner is ready, come to the table. And so then we're all just like sitting there watching her for 10 minutes while she makes this salad and it is so hard for me not to like in the moment say like, I wish you had done this 10 minutes ago. I, you know, like this is something that needed to be done before we're all waiting for you. Versus like really seeing her, seeing the care and the love and the diligence that she's showing for her, her little being, you know, that she is, has responsibility for and I think it's important that we do that, that these kids feel seen and heard before they're corrected, you know?
Sheri: Yes, for sure. Yeah.
Laura: You don't always do the best because, you know.
Sheri: Oh, we're none of us are perfect, right?
Laura: I was kind of curious. I, I thought popped up as you were talking about this drive that we have for fixing. And of course, as may as women, we know what that's like to go to maybe our partner and have our partner try to fix our problems. And when, when we really just want to be seen and heard and yet with our kids, we do the same, we wanna get in there and fix. And I'm kind of curious, what do you think is driving that desire to fix to get it all working smoothly for our kids?
Sheri: There is a, there's a lot of different reasons, but I think one of the reasons is we're uncomfortable when our kids are suffering in any way. So if we see our daughter crying, you know, sobbing, the girls were mean to me. They didn't sit with me at lunch or, you know, whatever it was that day. We're just like, oh my gosh, this is not okay.
Laura: Those little jerks, I’m calling their mom.
Sheri: Exactly. We get in the mama bear mode. We get in the mama drama, you know, and we need to just stop and realize first of all the other girls are also learning and they're also, you know, have their own perspective and, yeah, we see them as little jerks sometimes but you know, their mom.
Laura: But they’re not, they’re children.
Sheri: Yeah. Yeah, those moms of those, those kids are also dealing with what we're dealing with. So, but I think it comes down to not being comfortable with seeing our kids being uncomfortable and going through difficult things. So we want to push them through that suffering they're going through, we want to avoid it in the future. And our kids really feel that when they come to us and they want to vent and they want to talk about it. They're in the feeling conversation. When we go to the fix it conversation, there's a complete disconnect. We're out of attunement and they don't feel seen and heard even though that's what we think we're doing when we're going to fix it. This is what we're going to do next and they just don't feel seen and heard.
Laura: They don't, you're so right. One thing that I always ask my kids when they come to me with something like that. I ask, okay, is this a time where you want me to just be listening? Is this a time where you want suggestions or is this something you want me to get involved with?
Sheri: Absolutely.
Laura: You know, and most of the time they just want me to listen. So I've been asking them that since they started preschool when they would come home and talk about the little dramas. Oh, gosh, I was thinking too as you were just talking that our own experience in the teen years has to come in and impact us. Right? So one thing that I've noticed throughout my work with parents and my own growing up with my, alongside my kids is that as they reach new ages, kind of what I was going through at those ages resurfaces and there's this mirroring and reflecting that starts happening. And I'm, I'm guessing that also, you know, it's definitely present in the teen years for kiddos. I'm not there yet. But, I'm guessing it maybe even is more amplified because things can be, could have been really hard for us as teens. Do you see the parents teen experience coming back and impacting or hindering on their parenting in the moment with their, with their teens, their current teens?
Sheri: Yes, for sure because and like you said at all ages, right? Maybe something big happened to you in preschool or maybe it was in fifth grade. But what it does is it creates a filter in how we're interpreting what's going on with our own kids. So in the teen years or tween years, whatever years it is, right. Let's say they come and they tell you this girl at lunch said something mean to me. If you're bullied as a teen, you're going to see it through that filter and be thinking, you know, get triggered those emotions from your teen years again, like how dare someone bully my kid when you know one mean comment is not bullying, right? So the response that we have to that and how we guide our children is definitely seen through this filter of our own teen years if we haven't processed it and we haven't worked through it. So that's kind of the key and these things can sneak up on us. It can be something that like maybe your daughter is not invited to a birthday party and you don't even think about that time when you were 12 and you didn't get invited to the big birthday party. But all of a sudden you're up in arms, you want to call the other mom. You just can't believe this is happening. So we've got to check in with ourselves. What is it? Why am I more upset than my daughter is about these things? And we need to realize that when we're guiding and supporting our kids, we have to think about the whole picture the here and now our kids journey and make sure we're not parenting our own journey. We often are parenting ourselves. So we need to consider that.
Laura: Oh Sheri, I really appreciate that. You know, I think that the um the be getting clear. So I just want, I'm highlighting what you're saying so that just to bring it out so that we are all really hearing this getting super clear on who owns the problem that's happening, right? So when something happens with your kids, not taking ownership of it, right? Not taking over it, allowing them to own it, allowing it to be their lived experience as you support along the side, right? Is that what you're saying?
Sheri: Exactly. And you know, many times we step in, in the fix it mode and we're so proud of ourselves. We took care of that. We called the other mom. But the unintended message we're giving our kids is honey, you can't handle this. Let let mommy deal with this for you. And so it's very disempowering even though we're feeling good as parents. Hey, we, we did that.
Laura: We protected our kid.
Sheri: Exactly. We said to our kids, you just don't have the skills to deal with us.
Laura: Oh, none of us want to convey that message.
Sheri: No, no.
Laura: Oh gosh. In the vein of, of things from her own childhood coming up and needing to process them when we notice that happening. Do you have any, any tips or guidance for parents for like what to do? And when they're noticing those, those echoes just as an example because I think they're helpful. My my youngest is in third grade and third grade was a really hard year for me. My best friend, I really only had one dear friend in early elementary school and she moved away that year. So I spent, you know, my third grade year, very lonely. And my, my daughter who's almost nine and in third grade is also experiencing a lot of loneliness. So there's lots of echoes and I'm kind of curious about, you know, how do we go about processing that and you know, I, I think it's easy to say that get that separation, you know, see it as your kids versus your stuff and those things are separate, but it's hard to have any like things you do to help parents get, get grounded in the present moment.
Sheri: Absolutely. Yeah, when you know that that's coming up for you, like everybody has their own method, but one simple method is to journal about it, to write about it or just to think about it to take the time to go back into that space. What was it that you were going through? Just to kind of experience it again and then to release it in whatever way you can. But even more importantly, I think is to when you go back into that and feel it again, think about, oh what does my daughter need? What did I need? So you can use that experience as a way to help your parenting versus hinder it and, but to process it in your own time. A lot of times what parents will do is, oh, I went through this and then they tell their big long story and for the kids, it's like, well, this isn't about you. This is about me. You know, I got that from my own kids who are older now.
Laura: Oh my gosh, yeah.
Sheri: But you were like, we're going to connect because we're and tell our story.
Laura: There is an instinct to tell that story.
Sheri: Absolutely.
Laura: Yeah.
Sheri: Yeah. And it doesn't mean to never tell it if we do. We just need to make sure it's at the right time. Not when they come and they voice it and we're like, oh, let me tell you about my experience. And when you tell it, try to make it kind of short, you know, to be like, I get it because this, you know, instead of a 30 minute thing and they're like, oh my gosh, she's not listening to me anymore. This is all about her. Yeah, it just really, it's, I, I had this one time when I lost a dear, loved one of mine and I, somebody asked me, how are you doing? And I said, and then they told me about this, somebody who distantly was related to them that passed away and that like 10 years ago. And I'm like, okay, and then all of a sudden I'm in the mode of comforting them. I'm like, oh, wow, that, that kind of wasn't what I needed. But, you know, and that person was loving and they did it out of kindness and it was just, you know, but we as parents do that sometimes.
Laura: I think we totally do. I feel like that's a really good, you know, lesson for us to take on that in an attempt to seem relatable or to let our kids know that we do know what it's going, you know, what they're going through what it feels like. That it's timing is important and it matters and that in this moment it's not really about us and that we can convey that understanding without having to tell our whole story.
Sheri: Yeah. And usually what we, you know, we tell our story and then we say, but it's all going to be okay. I was, I'm fine now or whatever, which seems very dismissive when you're in the middle of it, right?
Laura: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you were asking me to think about what I needed in those moments, you know, so I was really lonely and I don't know that we think very much about young kids being lonely. I, I know that my, my youngest daughter has had waves of loneliness over the school year. Noticing that other girls seem to have like a best friend. She's a very popular child. Everyone wants to play with her but she feels lonely. She feels like she doesn't have like that one person who's clicked with her. I'm kind of curious. I, I think that that's pretty common even though we don't think about it because we see our kids out and playing, having lots of friends and yet that feeling of loneliness is still there.
Sheri: Yeah. We think that if people are with people, if they're not alone, then they're not lonely. But it's really about that deeper connection, which a lot of kids are missing these days. And I saw a real, with the pandemic, you know, with the social isolation and with the kind of stunt in their social development, loneliness is at the forefront and I see it in the kids that I work with, they'll come in and they just, they don't feel great about their social life and I'll start asking them about their friendships and they've got some of them have, you know, a group of 15 girls, they're part of a big friend group. But when they start kind of trying to tell me how they feel, it takes them a while. But they get to, I just feel lonely and it comes down to not having relationships that feel like they can be vulnerable. They can truly be themselves, they can open up that they're, they're trusting these girls. So you can see in how someone who has a group of friends, but they don't feel really connected to any of them, how being with that group of friends makes them feel even more lonely. So when you're a little one, let's say third grade, you're on the playground, everybody's playing at recess, maybe you're even playing Foursquare or tag whatever they're playing these days. And, you know, they're, but they don't feel connected to anyone and they see these two talking over here and another two over on the other side and they just feel that lack of connection is really what that loneliness is. So we have to kind of teach our girls, especially after the pandemic. We have to teach them what it means to have a deeper friendship, to be vulnerable, to spend more time to reach out to people and to ask them to hang out, especially outside of school. And, they may have some rejection when they do that and that's ok too, but we can support them through that.
Laura: And what does that look like? What does its supporting them look and sound like when they're feeling rejected or, or asking questions? Like, you know, why does no one want to play with me or why don't I have a best friend?
Sheri: Yeah. Yeah. And this, we don't have answers to this, right? Our kids don't have the answers. We don't have the answers. We just have to support them as they continue to get out there to connect. So ask them what they're looking for in a friend, remind them that their friends are out there. They just haven't found them yet to remind them that they are likable and lovable. And oftentimes if they're going through these periods of loneliness just to listen like we're talking about before it makes them feel heard and seen. For girls usually not in elementary school, but as they get older, there's some girls who will go to school and not be like no one will talk to them the entire school day. Some of them, the teachers didn't even talk to them. So how invisible does that feel like you feel like you're walking through and nobody sees you. And so we, if we take the time to listen to our kids put distractions away our cell phone to the side, sit there and listen to them that does a world of good to help them feel a little less lonely.
Laura: Okay. I, since you said the word cell phone too, I'm thinking about how this, how connected we are and how, like we're more connected than ever and we're lonelier than ever. Parents are lonely or kids are lonely for, for teens who are getting their, you know, I, I guess, I don't know what the average age for getting their first device is now.
Sheri: It's younger, I'd say tweens,tweens.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, so like the, like the, the small little bubble that I'm in, it's 12 or 13 is when kids are getting their first phones. But I know that it's younger in, outside of that little bubble because they go to a technology free school. But so how does, how do screen cell phones factor into this?
Sheri: This factors into it from a very young age. It's not just if our kids have cell phones, it's if we have cell phones, like, if you go out and I'm not judging parents at all because I understand it. But if you go out and you look at parents with young kids like babies in their, their, strollers, you'll see a lot of parents on their phone. Whereas if you think, you know, 30 years ago the parent would be goo goo gaga shaking a toy, you know, holding her baby. And so even from a young age, the cell phones get in the way of connection and, you'll see it as they get older, they're on the ipads, at dinner instead of talking, you know, when they're out. And again I get it like, it's like, ok, they're not gonna be fussy. They're watching their favorite, cartoon. So we're kind of setting the stage as parents if we do allow that technology to become a disconnection between us and our kids. So when they do get their phones, how like all of a sudden we're going to say, no, don't get on your phone. Even though we've been role modeling that we got to really think about that. Now, on a different level, talking, peer to peer, what I see is it's a very interesting, same thing because they connect with each other more frequently. It tends to be as the day goes on, they actually connect on a more intimate, vulnerable level. But then when they get together, person to person, it's like that's a different conversation over there and now we're here, face to face. Very interesting seeing this happen. You'll see a lot of dating going on in the younger kids because they're having those nighttime conversations. That's when all of our biology is like, it's set for connection as they get later in the day.
Laura: Interesting.
Sheri: So, yeah, that's why like pillow talk with, when you're trying to put your kids to bed and all of a sudden they want to open up. One reason. Right. Always take advantage of that. But, so what happens is they reveal a lot of stuff about themselves when they're chatting through Snapchat or through, you know, whatever method they're using. But then they get face to face and that's like a total disconnect sometimes from that.
Laura: Interesting. How can we, I don't know, teach our kids then how complicated that is because that feels very complicated, you know, I mean, and how like, and how to navigate that. I mean, so gosh, to date myself, you know, no one had cell phones in my high school, you know, but we did, we had a similar phenomena happening with like AOL chat, you know, messengers, you know. And you know, no one was supporting me and figuring out like, you know, what do you share? How do you keep your, you know, that vulnerability? Like how do you forge that in person? You know, like all of those things is, is there a way for us to support our kids with that?
Sheri: I think we just have to, first of all, going back to role modeling, right? Are we texting our, our family are we texting our friends, are we calling them? Are they seeing us on the phone? But also talking about energy and emotions and when we're in person, it feels very different than when we're on a device, right? And if your kids were on zoom or learning online during the pandemic, we can go back to that. How did that feel when you were in a classroom on Zoom versus a classroom in real person? So they can understand and that there is a bond when you see people in person and, and really encouraging that, that they reach out to people through facetime even is better than a text. And so you can see the person's face so you can feel their emotions a little bit, right? So just encouraging that actual in real life connection versus just online.
Laura: Okay. And okay, so I, I feel kind of curious too. So I feel like we've talked a lot about kids who maybe are on the receiving end of, of disconnection or maybe not being treated well. What if we suspect our kid is the one who's doing the excluding or doing the maybe not so much, you know, not just not being nice, you know, doing the mean girl stuff, instigating the drama.
Sheri: Yeah, this is the thing they need the exact same thing as the girl that's on the receiving end. There's something that is not connecting for them. They're probably feeling insecure in their friendships and relationships, they need skills. It's, again, that person who is, is displaying the mean behaviors, it's all about, they don't know how to get the connection that they need and want. And so we have to go in not like, how dare you be mean or? Oh, my gosh. I can't believe my daughter is doing this. I know I raised her better than this, which is all these thoughts that come up. Right?
Laura: Of course. Yes.
Sheri: Yeah. Yeah, like how did this happen? You know that your kid is kind, you know that she wants to connect, you know, she wants to nurture and so you've got to talk to her about those things and support her and love her and listen to her just like you would if your daughter was on the receiving end and the hardest part of that is releasing judgment, not just about our kids but about ourselves because then all of a sudden if we're judging ourselves, we're going to be really harsh on our kids.
Laura: So if we are afraid that we're being perceived in a certain way or we're thinking about the, the moms all talking bad about our kid and about us and what kind of mom we are. Oh, that's the mama drama.
Sheri: The mama drama kicks in and you're back in your teenage mode. You don't want people talking about you, you don't want them talking about your kid. So you can actually start displaying some of these mean girl behaviors towards your own daughter but also towards other moms and you just get in your head you overthink.
Laura: Okay. So it sounds to me like the remedy for in both instances is compassion, compassion for the self and compassion for your daughter. Seeing them as, as hurting in individuals who need support and love. You know, it's not too different from when our kids were toddlers and we because we know that if one kid is hitting, you know that a hitting kid is a hurting kid, right? So yeah, of course, you've got 10 to the kid who got hit and you also have to remember that the kid did. The hitting was also hurting and needed need support and guidance on not harshness and and judgment, right? It's so similar.
Sheri: So similar and oftentimes what will happen is if we find out our kid does something mean we're like, oh you're going to march over there and you're going to give them an apology. Is that appropriate? Probably so in some way, but not in that way. That's in a like shame and blame and judge mode. We're gonna be like, what did you really want to say to her or why did we get to that? What do you think you could say to her instead? And how, how do you want to do that? Do you want to write a letter? Should we go over and visit her? So collaborative, not like this punitive. You totally screwed up and now you're going to go apologize because then that creates, it's almost, it becomes part of her identity that she is a mean girl. And we don't want that either.
Laura: No, we don't. We want them to think of themselves as good and worthy and lovable. Right?
Sheri: Yes. For sure.
Laura: And imperfect kids make mistakes. All humans make mistakes. Okay. Oh, so I think, I think this has been a really helpful conversation. I'm curious about if, if folks have one of those kids who just are not in a place where they can have the conversation with their parents and they need more support. Who do they go? Obviously you do this but like it in their community is where do they go to? Like, where do we should parents go to find support for their kids?
Sheri: Yeah. It really depends on what kind of support they need. If they are in a clinical mode, then it's probably more of a therapist.
Laura: Okay.
Sheri: But I would say like I see a lot of kids, I have a master's in psychology, but I'm practicing as a coach. And so a lot of kids come to me after they've seen a therapist because they need specific skills around the social skills, understanding the dynamics of friendships and understanding how they're contributing to some of their friendship woes. Like, I do friendship analysis, for instance, if a kid's been excluded from a group and the next group and the next group, not, we're not blaming them, but we're like, hey, let's look, if there's anything you can change up, if there's something that's happening along the way. And oftentimes we'll find something that's relatively small that they can change and that's so empowering. So, to answer your question, I don't know exactly what resource I'm going to say. Of course, myself because I'm the friendship expert. And I think that that's important when you're looking for support, look that that person is going to give your daughter what she needs. And that takes a little bit of detective work to figure it out. But I would say the first thing, make sure that she's not depressed and that she's not, doesn't have extreme social anxiety. Those would be the first things to look at. And then, if she just needs the skills to make sure that she's got someone that is, um, expert in that.
Laura: Okay. And are school counselors or school psychologists, like often good sources or good first places or, are they sometimes embroiled in the drama themselves because they're in the system?
Sheri: Oh, that's such a good question. And I am not going to make a blanket statement either way.
Laura: Of course not. I don't want to get you in trouble with any school counselors. We love all teachers in school.
Sheri: Yes, exactly.
Laura: We know you're doing your best.
Sheri: I’m going to say know you're a counselor because what you said is very true. That often they're embroiled, they can often make it worse if they don't know how to deal with it. Which is one reason I'm trying to get in the schools more to give the school counselors more help or.
Laura: More training. I’m sure.
Sheri: More training. Yeah, because it, girl dynamics, friendship dynamic dynamics are extremely difficult to understand and it's not just a matter of go in and doing one thing and fixing it. It's about a culture and I often get calls from schools like my whole sixth grade. I don't know what's going on with all the girls in this grade. Is there something that's off with the patterns between the girls in that grade? And so yeah, it's I would say if you have a relationship with a school counselor that may be a good place to start. But also going in to get some clarity from the teacher. The the things I say, if you're gonna go in and looking for support from the school, go in with no judgment because I know a lot of parents are like, how do you let this happen in the classroom?
Laura: Yes, yes.
Sheri: Relational aggression, girl drama issues are very hard to detect and deal with. First of all, the second is you want to have compassion to understand the teacher or the counselor is dealing with these things all day long and they have lots of kids and then also seeking a solution because if you're going to the school and you're saying these girls pointing the fingers at everybody else are causing an issue, fix it. Or why did you let this happen? It's not going to become a collaborative process and they're gonna, they're gonna push back as most people do when they feel defensive.
Laura: Of course, I think that makes so much sense. Are there resources that parents can support schools in bringing into their, into their curriculum too? I know that. So, like, as an example, my, again, my kids go to a, a little bit of a strange school but they have friendship class every Friday.
Sheri: I love it.
Laura: Yes, so they are learning to be good friends with each other and when there's conflict, my, um they have, it's called a candle ceremony. And they, the kids who are having conflicts, sit down with the t, you know, with the teacher, they light a candle and they get support in having those conversations, you know. But are there other, like more, you know, not, I know, not everybody has the privilege of being able to be in a situation where there's a lot of mindful intention in that way and it's a very small school. So there's resources available. Are there, are there things we can bring to our teachers, you know, the teachers of our, our kids that we can bring into our school communities that can be more supportive.
Sheri: Yeah, so.
Laura: Or any ways we can do that in our own homes. Like having a friendship circle, like, in our, like, anyway. Go ahead. Sorry.
Sheri: Yeah. No. So, first of all I would say me, like, they can always reach out to me. I'm always happy to help support schools and parents and kids who are dealing with friendship issues. But I also know there's an organization called Beyond Differences. I was just reading about that. That is about a system within the school and I, I'm not an expert on it. I just heard about it and I'm like, oh, that sounds interesting. I need to look into that. So, and I think it's about, there's another one too. I can't remember the name of it, but the whole idea of these is that the school culture is what they're working on and teaching kids about inclusion and how, what that looks like. It doesn't mean everybody has to be friends, but it means that like, what does that look like if somebody is sitting alone, can you invite them in to sit with you or do you go sit with them various things. But it is definitely about the culture of kind of pushing back on the clicks and exclusion and how, what does that look like but empowering the kids rather than just making them feel bad about it, telling them what it looks like and how they can make a difference in their school?
Laura: Oh, I love that. Thank you, Sherry. So will you tell everybody where they can find you and find the work that you're doing and reach out to you?
Sheri: Absolutely. So, my website is teen-wise.com. And even though it says teen, it's really for anybody who has girls, you know, of all ages. And if you go there, there's a girl drama webinar that I do. That is about the ways that we typically support our girls that have unintended consequences. So we want to look at those and be like, oh, we need to stay away from those. And then we talk about the ways we do want to support, which is kind of what we were talking about this whole time. I use the love framework. So L is for listen O is for offer advice, if they don't want it, they don't get it. V is for validate their emotions and then E is for empower.
Laura: Oh beautiful. And you have a Facebook group too, right?
Sheri: Yes, I do. And it's, it's and I think you'll put the link up for everybody.
Laura: I will. Yes, I'll put it in the show notes.
Sheri: If you search The Parenting Lab. But it's actually called a group for Moms with daughters who have girl drama or friendship issues, so.
Laura: Okay. I will put the link in the show notes.
Sheri: Thank you.
Laura: Of course. Well, thank you so much, Sheri and thank you for the support that you're giving to our global community of girls. I really appreciate it.
Sheri: Yeah, they need it.
Laura: They do.
Sheri: And like I said, at the beginning, if we can teach them to lift each other up, they become women who lift each other up and the world is just a much better place.
Laura: Yes, so much. Thank you.
Sheri: Thank you.
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