Episode 87: How to Save your Relationship with Kimberly Beam Holmes
/Our different responsibilities and even the demands of our jobs can take a toll in our marriage. To help us understand how we can deepen our connection and have a more fulfilling relationship as busy parents living through a pandemic, I have invited Kimberly Beam Holmes to dive deep into what it takes to have a long lasting, fulfilling relationship. She is the CEO of the Marriage Helper and is currently working on her PhD in psychology.
Here is an overview of our conversation.
Four steps to ultimate attraction
Proven process for falling in love
Most common things couples fight about
How to change the conversations in our marriage (and stop all the fighting)
How to save your relationship
To get more support from Kimberly, visit her websites itstartswithattraction.com and MarriageHelper.com. And do follow her on Instagram @kimberlybeamholmes.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, I have a guest for you who's going to help us understand how we can deepen our connection and have a more fulfilling marriage and relationship as busy parents. So please let me introduce you to Kimberly being home, she is the CEO of the Marriage Helper and I am so excited to have her here. It can relate please introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do.
Kimberly: Absolutely! Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I really appreciate being here today. Yeah, like you said, I'm Kimberly, I'm the CEO of this amazing organization called Marriage Helper and really what we do there is we help people create strong marriages and this could look anywhere across the spectrum from the couple who is a newlywed or they've only been married a couple of years and they're saying, how do we do this better? Right? Because there's two things we're not taught how to do, how to be married and how to be a parent and those are the two most important things we will ever do in our lives.
So there's some people who are just saying, you know, we've run into some obstacles, some hurdles help us through it all the way to the other end of the spectrum of people who are saying my spouse is done, they filed for divorce, This feels completely unsalvageable. Can you help? And the answer is yes to both of those situations and anywhere in between. So we're able to help people learn how to do that and I love being able to do that.
Laura: That's so amazing. You know, I think we often go into just like we go into parenthood with kind of rose colored glasses, we go into marriage that way too and we think it's gonna, you know, they're going to be our everything where they're going to solve all of our problems, it's just going to be this kind of idyllic romantic thing and it often is not right, You know, it's gosh, we put so much pressure on marriage.
One of the things when I was a practicing couple therapist, I often got couples who were at a place where they did not know if it was worth saving their marriage if they had done too much damage. And can we talk a little bit about that? Like how do you know if your relationship is, there's too much distance, there's too much damage, there's too much hurt to save it. How do you know?
Kimberly: That is a question that people ask all the time too. I think the fear behind it is do I really want to keep putting so much of myself into this only for even more heartbreak or for my heart to continue to be broken over and over again during the process? What I encourage people to think about when they're asking, how do I know, is it worth saving? Is it worth fighting for? We definitely believe every marriage can be saved.
Now, here's the caveats to that. If there is a good person who is doing some bad things, then I believe that person deserves to be rescued. So maybe they're struggling with an addiction or maybe they are in an affair or maybe the communication really has broken down and it's been that way for years and you're just fighting all the time. But the question I always ask people to consider is do you believe your spouse is a good person who is currently doing a bad thing or stuck in a cycle of doing bad things?
Or do you believe that your spouse is a bad person who is doing bad things because if your spouse is a bad person at his core or her core, who is doing bad things, I don't know that you can salvage that. However, the majority of the time, I mean by and enlarge the majority of the time it is they are good people at heart and they are just stuck in something or doing something. Now some questions come into that of how do you know how long to put up with it? How do you handle it? You know, we can get all into that in a minute, but I believe that forgiveness is what can encompass a multitude of sins. Forgiving a multitude of sins is what allows people to realize there's the space for me to come back or there's the space for this to see if this can be reconciled as opposed to holding things over someone's head or just never letting them move past it.
You know, it's amazing in the couples that we've worked with, There's one couple in particular Jordan and Priscilla and I love their story because Jordan's Priscilla were married, they had four or five kids when Priscilla had an affair and left her husband with the children. Which is not normal. It's not typical that the mom leaves the kids. But she was so in love with this other person and just really felt like life could be happier if it was different. And so she left and they divorced and they were divorced for a year. And during that year Priscilla got pregnant with the other person's baby taking the situation.
Most people would say over right? Like this is a situation, it's probably not going to be saved. Like let go, move on. It's not worth it. But Jordan loved his wife and he still wanted her back even with all of this being done. And as Priscilla was pregnant with another man's baby and realizing what reality was going to be like when she had a baby, she started to realize what she had left.
Honestly, she started to realize I left my kids, I love my husband and I left my life, I left my friends. This is not what I wanted. This is not the life I signed up for and she went back to her husband and he or gave her, I shared this story in an interview that I was doing on a YouTube video a couple of weeks ago and the comments of people after when they heard that and said that there were so many people who said he's a wuss, he should have never done that. I can't believe that he's that whipped or whatever, you know, just whatever it is they said. But the truth of the matter is he forgave her because he loved her, he saw a better future for his family. He wanted his family to be put back together.
She came back, they remarried, he took that child in as it was his own. They are now this beautiful family of five or six, depending on how many they had before and they are so happy. But not only are they happy. They are the living example that there is hope for situations and they share that openly and widely. The first to be able to tell their story and their testimony of just what happened with their marriage and how it was put back together. But if Jordan had not been able to forgive her, there's no way that would have happened. There's no way they could have had the future that they have now.
Now that story could have looked very different. Jordan could've still done everything right and she still could have left and never come back. That's not Jordan's fault. But at least at that point, Jordan would have known I did everything I could to make this marriage work until the very end and he would have, even if she never came back at least had peace in knowing that. So I also encourage people to think, do you have peace if you don't have peace on giving up on a marriage, like real peace inside, not giving up, not just saying to hell with them, right? Like that's not peace.
If you have peace about it, then, you know, move forward in that. But a lot of people don't have peace and they know that their spouse is a good person doing some bad things and they're willing to try and make it work. And I say.
Laura: To be clear. We're not talking about systematic abuse. We're not talking about violence, we're talking about in safe places. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I love this idea that forgiveness is powerful and that there is hope. I think that is a huge message for lots of us, especially right now, so many couples are feeling the strain of isolation of this pandemic of additional stressors being placed on their marriage.
And I think a lot of people in these times of stress things get rocky when we, we as a couple, turn away from each other in our stress instead of turning towards each other. So, some people in my community are wondering then, so like how can we have a better relationship if there's been distance if there's been discord, how can we start kind of turning that bend turning back into each other?
Kimberly: You referred to it? So, I'm going to start there. There's actually really great research from Gottman that talks about what happens in turning towards our spouse and turning away from our spouse. So really quickly, I love how it's demonstrated here. One of the best things that we can start doing if we're wanting to create a stronger relationship with our spouse is to really be mindful of how we are reacting towards our spouse, right? In some ways that we can do this is by assessing when my spouse comes to me with something, Am I turning towards them? Am I turning from them or am I turning against them?
So an example could be if my husband comes to me and let's say, we're walking down the street and he points out a truck because he's definitely a southern man who loves trucks. So if he points out a truck and says, I love this Ford F450 you know, all of this stuff, Why don't you look at that? Isn't that awesome? Well, if I wanted to turn towards him, then I would say, oh wow, that's so cool. Tell me more about why you like that. Because what he's doing in that moment is he's giving me his Gottman would call it a bid for attention. So I can either use that bid to take it and create a further connection with him, which is what we want to do. That's ideal.
Or I could simply just say, oh, that's nice and kind of stop the conversation that would be classified as turning from him. That's not going to help develop and deepen our relationship. It's just kind of going to shut him down. It may send the message unintentionally, what you're saying is not important to me. I don't really care. I'm thinking about other things, you know, all of that stuff. Or the third option of this is I could turn away from him, I could turn against him as another way to say that. And I could say, oh my goodness, you like that truck, It's hideous.
It's too expensive. It's, I mean, whatever it might be, and then in that moment, I'm basically taking this bid of attention that he's giving me and kind of throwing it back in his face, like that's ridiculous. And that's just going to shut him down. And so when we kind of start assessing just in our daily interactions with our spouses, if my spouse or my partner reaches out to me, gives me this bid for attention, what am I doing to respond back to that? And it could be something small, It could be something tiny like, what do you want for lunch today or what should we have for lunch today? And just taking that as an opportunity before instead of just saying, oh, I don't care.
And then getting back to being on your phone or computer, looking at your spouse, looking at them crazy, like in the eye, looking at your spouse and saying, I don't know what sounds good to you, like making a conversation from it. It's one simple thing that we can begin just assessing in ourselves because I don't know about you, Laura, but for me, especially in the first four or five years of my marriage, I was really good at noticing everything I wanted my husband to change.
Like I had this laundry list of things like if he would just do this, that and the other differently, our marriage would be better. And it wasn't until I started looking inward first and saying, what am I doing? That things really began to change. So we can start by looking inward by simply assessing how we react to ourselves.
Laura: When I work with couples. And I still do a lip just a tiny bit of relationship coaching right now, it's not my focus, but when I do, I always start by asking them to make a list of 10 things that they could be doing differently to make the relationship better. Like, so often couples come in and they sit down and they're pointing the finger. You just did it this way, we would be fine if you just do it, do this. We always have to look in, what could I be doing differently. I love that
Kimberly: And no one wants to make that list.
Laura: No, no, no one wants to make that list. It's sometimes like, I have to hold space of accountability of like, okay, you guys did not do your homework and now we're going to sit here right now and do it together because you didn't do your homework and now and it's important. Yes, Absolutely.
Okay, so then I have a couple questions from my community where people are trying to figure out how to communicate their needs to their partner in a way that doesn't raise defensiveness and in a way that gets their needs met, you know? So especially during this time we're all trying to balance each other's needs. Do you have any tips or advice on how to clearly and lovingly communicate the needs that you have your home for, time for yourself, whatever they are?
Kimberly: Yeah, absolutely. The first thing I encourage people to do is to ask if their needs are realistic, that's a good place to start and most of the time they are right, But I just like to have people reassess them and make sure that what they're asking for or what their expectations are of their partner or their marriage aren't just unfathomable. Like are these things that can actually be done and is it realistic for me to ask my spouse to do this for me. So I think that's just a good starting point just to make sure that everyone's on the same page and then the next thing I encourage people to do is to really think about wording and timing.
So my husband and I last night had this conversation as we were going to bed, I said to him because we have something wrong on the front of our house and I noticed it a couple of weeks ago and last night as we were laying down at 9:30 night, I said, Hey will you take a look at that tomorrow? And he said Kimberly, please do not ask me your honey do list when we are trying to go to bed. Please ask me first thing in the morning and I'm gonna be honest with you. I got a little defensive, I didn't say anything, I was proud of myself but I was like but it's the time I thought of it. Why can't I just say it when I think of it. Why do I have to wait till in the morning? Right?
But I just said okay, it's not like I got it. I hear you, sounds good. So this morning I say right like it's morning time, it's time to do it. But timing is a huge thing. You need to make sure that you are in a good space, that you're not irritated in the moment because if you're going to express your need when you're angry about that need not being met, it's gonna come out, lead to a fight. I mean more than likely because of the tone your spouse will get defensive.
You're gonna get more defensive and it's going to lead to this downward spiral. And this is what's difficult for people to do Laura. It's difficult for people to pause it, for people to say, okay, this just happened today and this need wasn't met, you know, maybe I asked my spouse to do something, they didn't do it, but now I'm angry about it, but do I have to address it now a majority time? You don't have to address it right now? You could wait.
Laura: I don't know, the raging teenager inside of you might say things like, but I have the need and I should be able to have my needs met, you know? Yeah, but ultimately, like if your goal is to get the need met, then setting yourself up for success to get that need met is so important.
Kimberly: Yeah, and, you know, I would go even further than that of Yes, the goal is to get your needs met, but I think the longer term goal is to have a healthy relationship. So how do you make sure that you get your needs met? Make sure your spouse gets their needs met. But with the ultimate vision of, we want to create a strong relationship when you take the time to just pause and make sure you're in that good space before you approach your spouse, that you're calm, that you're even keeled, that you feel good about it, feel confident about what you're gonna ask.
That's number one, and then number two is, is your spouse in that good spot because if they just had a terrible day at work or, you know, whatever it might be, if the kids have been driving both of you crazy that day, probably not a good time, right? Like wait until there's calmness and this seems probably counterintuitive. But even waiting until you're laughing about things, you know, just you're in a good spot and maybe slipping it in and not sometimes you don't have to make it this huge, like we need to sit down and I have to tell you this. It could simply be something like, hey, I've been wanting to mention something to you.
Do you think that you could help me more with getting the kids ready for school in the morning? It would be really helpful for me so that I can get to work on time or whatever it is and when you can kind of slip it in and make it where it's not a big deal. Your spouse is less likely to feel like it's this burden or feel attacked by it and more likely to be amenable to it.
I also recommend for people to make sure and this is kind of up to each person. I like to not have these conversations in my bedroom because if it does lead to some kind of disagreement, I don't want our bedroom to be the place that happens. I would rather be a more neutral territory like the living room or something like that. But that's a personal preference that I have.
Laura: I totally get that I wanted to pull something out that you were saying in here the way you were saying it. I think that you mentioned before that the delivery is so important, but you were using beautiful I statements and I think that that's something that is a skill that we did not learn growing up. We did not see that model most of us in our homes growing up and when we focus on ourselves and our experience and our needs, not in the way that they're disappointing us, not in the way that they're not meeting our needs, but in what we actually do need and we keep that focus on us.
Like, you know, I've been feeling super overwhelmed in the mornings and we're all rushing out the door and I know it's a lot and I was just wondering if there's a way we can sit down and talk about how we can make the mornings go more smoothly, you know, like really focusing on our experience and then, and then we're a team that we're going to solve this problem together. You know, I think can be really helpful. I believe that in order to have a healthy thriving relationship, we both need to have interests and joy and pleasure that happens outside of each other. You know, that we can't be each other's everything and so we very much support each other's hobbies and joy and enjoyment.
Unfortunately my husband happens to have two hobbies take forever they're super long. He golfs and he ice fishes, these are like 5 to 6 hour events, you know, that's how he does self care. You know, we were talking about this and my self care is, you know, 30 minutes of yoga, half an hour of painting, you know, reading a book on the couch, all the kids don't talk to me, you know, it's smaller, but he scheduled his ice fishing during my weekly live yoga class that I do. And, you know, I had to come and sit down and say, honey, I so support you in your ice fishing, it's so important, it's so good for you.
I love your ice fishing. And I also really need to have my Sunday morning yoga. What can we do about that? How can we kind of prioritize and make sure that you're getting your ice fishing and I'm getting my yoga, what can we do? You know? And he was like, wow, I totally forgot about your yoga and, you know, we had a great conversation four years ago. It could have been a big fight because we make it are making a conscious effort and being more kind and loving and turning in towards each other. It was not at all, and we left it feeling completely supported and loved by each other. You know.
Kimberly: It's the art of compromise, to write and even compromise, collaboration. Yeah. And trying to be more flexible than not, right? You know, ideally we get to a point in our relationships where if I show my spouse I'm flexible over time. He's going to be more flexible too. And it's going to become some of it's going to take.
But like you said, a lot of this begins with us and I know that's what the whole not fair comes in about it. It's not fair that if my husband is being a jerk that I'm the one who has to be nice, right? Like that's not fair. But it takes the more mature person in the moment to put it back on track. And if that just so happens to be the wives, then that's what it is.
But I mean I say that half just tingly, but it is true. Like there are times in our relationships where it really does start with me. Like I can sit here and be upset about it and pout about it and whine about it or I can just go do something to make it different.
Laura: Yeah, so this is a question that I get a lot that I feel like you just led me into so beautifully. So do you think that one person can save relationship, a marriage, a partnership.
Kimberly: At first? Yes. I believe it takes one person to begin for there to be changes made especially with what we see it marriage helper. When people begin to change themselves, we call it working on your PIES that stands for physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual. And the four parts of attraction that we talked about. We know that falling back in love or continuing to fall in love with someone. We call that the love path. And there's four steps or stages to it. But the first stage is its attraction. But it's all about you. It's not about just trying to attract your spouse back to you, got to secondary part of it, but it's about you feeling good about yourself.
You, beginning to do things like you said, it's healthy for you and your husband to have different interests to have different hobbies to not be completely intertwined with each other. That's right. And that's the beauty of being an attractive person. My husband is going to be more attractive to me the more that he sees that I am an individual who can be independent but wants to be with him, right? Like that's this interdependency that's so beautiful. And so when people began work on themselves, look inside work on their pies, become the best they can be and begin to do the right things that will put their relationship back on track, then that is setting a foundation for your marriage to be saved. But your spouse has free will and you can do everything perfectly right. But you cannot give them a pill that's going to force them to come back to you. You can't give them you know, there's nothing you can do to force your spouse to end up changing and wanting to save the marriage.
All you can do is lay a foundation that's inviting and not try and force them into it. And then ultimately, at the end of the day, if they choose to leave, at least you have done what you can do, but a lot of times and this is what we see so many times it marriage helper when one person begins to stop the argument cycles. The argument dances that happened when one person begins to be kinder and more respectful.
When one person begins to, you know, in the middle of a fight says, you know what I understand that you're upset right now, let's just talk about this a little later time and then doesn't continue. The conversation doesn't fight back when one person begins to make that change. One of two things typically happen. Number one, either, the spouse will end up getting worse because they're like, wait a minute, you're not going to fight with me, I'm going to yell even louder. Like because that's what humans do when we're not used to getting the response we typically get were like, wait a minute and it takes time for them to settle down.
But the second thing that typically happens is they begin to calm down and realize maybe this marriage can be different than, than what I thought it was again. They still have free will, long story short, long answer. Long and short is I think that it takes one person to start it, but it can't always be one person eventually and it may be years, but eventually the other person will need to come back in order for the marriage to be sick.
Laura: It almost feels like it can be one person who invites the relationship onto a new path, but the other person has to start walking the path with them at some point. Yeah, I want to know a little bit more about So I think it's incredibly powerful to just focus on yourself, Focus on your own reactivity, focus on yourself getting the pause and even just focusing on what can I do to be happier in and of myself on my own? You know? So I mean are these the things that the very first steps to saving a relationship that feels like it's failing?
Kimberly: Yes. There are two things that I would recommend to every single person who's in a relationship that feels like it's failing and that first one is to work on your PIES. So physically it's not about how you look as much as it is, about how you feel? How do you feel physically? Do you have energy? Are you sleeping well? Are you moving? Are you getting your body moving? Are you depressed? Are you stressed?
Like what do you need to do to feel good physically to have energy to show up in your life for me? I know when I am drained physically. Either because of a stressful week or I'm not getting good sleep or if I'm not eating right, then I am going to not be a nice person to be around for me, this is core. This is key intellectually. We encourage people to become a person of interest. Right?
So the whole thing about intellectual attraction is, am I the kind of person that other people enjoy talking to? Am I the kind of person my spouse would enjoy having a conversation with. Now you don't do this just for your spouse, You do it for you first and foremost. But this is encouraging you to go and learn and take up hobbies and have interests outside of just your marriage or your spouse's interest to be that
Laura: For your kids, your parents? Yes.
Kimberly: You have an identity apart from all of that. And it's helpful for everyone in your life to see that the emotional part of attraction is do I evoke emotions within others that they enjoy feeling? I love this one And this is typically the one people pause and say, oh my gosh, that is the question I have not asked myself. And immediately people begin to see this is what can help people see that list of things we need to change because if I think about my actions in terms of how does the way I act affect other people? How does it make them feel about themselves? It's so enlightening.
So if I think about this with my kids and my evoking emotions with my children that they enjoy feeling. If I think about yesterday, oh yeah, I'm telling you everything about yesterday. Last night was not my night, I was answering work emails after work hours, which I hate doing. But I was on my phone in my kitchen, my daughter was really just wanting me to watch her do a cartwheel. Like that's what she was wanting and I was like, boo me, that's what it's like, Bumi. Let me finish this and I'm sure I know I even dreamed about it last night and woke up this morning, I was like, she just wants to be seen, why can't I put the phone down right?
Like that's what has to happen. So just assessing myself, even like how do I evoke emotions within others that they enjoy feeling? What do I need to stop doing? What do I need to start doing that will evoke more positive emotions with the people that I love. And of course we can think about ways to do that with our spouse and then spiritual attraction is beliefs and values. So am I living in line with what my beliefs and values are is basically what that is because typically when people are acting against their beliefs and values eventually they will come to that point where they say, I don't like who I am, I've become someone I don't I don't know anymore.
So it's always important to make sure you're still living in line with that and when you begin working on those four things, you begin to change into a better version of you. So that's number one. So we're on your, the second thing I then encourage people to do from there is you've got to change the communication in your relationship and we call it smart contact or smart communication is another way to put it because a lot of times when people are stressed or anxious about their relationship, it comes out in a couple of ways either they begin to ignore their spouse because they think if I ignore them, then they'll see what they're missing and they'll want to come back to me and a lot of times that doesn't work well or they will over chase their spouse right?
Like they'll over analyze everything that we call it. They'll do these push behaviors where they'll plead, beg wine, cry, do that, like try to do anything to get their spouse to come back, which ultimately just pushes their spouse further away, even though that's not their intention because of the way they're acting, it's like I can't have all of this right now. So we encourage people to stop the push behaviors to manage your expectations. The whole acronym stands for S. M. A. R. T.
Actually stands for things, but it's just a new way to change the communication in your relationship. But the bottom ultimately what it is, is calm down the conversations that you're having. Stop fighting so much and you really just have to rebuild a foundation of how to have a conversation. Like your spouse is your friend, right? Like stop trying to get them to make a decision a lot with a lot of the people we work with, it's like that they need to make a decision of whether they're going to stay or go or they need to explain to me why they're doing this or you know whatever and it's like not there yet, you're not there.
All you got to do right now is have a civil conversation. Even if it's just about how was your day? If you can do it politely and without fighting, that's a win. And you're rebuilding that foundation for you to be able to communicate about more important things that are more emotionally charged later in the future. But you're not there now.
Laura: Oh yeah. So accepting where you are rebuilding good, strong foundation of friendship and caring and love? Yeah. Okay. So where if people want to learn more about the pies and smart communication, where can they follow you? Where can they get help from the marriage helper?
Kimberly: Yeah all the things, all those things in two different ways. If you're wanting more about your marriage and saying ah yes I need help with this smart, I need this more smartly communicate with my spouse. Then I would encourage you to either one of two things go to marriage helper dot com. We actually have a free mini course that you can get from the homepage which talks all about smart contact. It talks about the pies like I've mentioned, you can also find a ton of our free videos on YouTube by going to YouTube dot com slash marriage helper and subscribing there and then for the listeners who are saying, you know, I feel pretty good about my relationship but I really want to help me become better. I want to become the best I can be.
Then I have a podcast too. It's called, It Starts with Attraction and every week I'm talking about a different part of the pies, the P I. R. S and just making it applicable to people's lives. So you can go and subscribe to that wherever you listen to podcasts or you can go to the website. It starts with attraction dot com and there's a free attraction assessment there and all the things and you can see the past podcast episodes as well.
Laura: Awesome. Well Kimberly, thank you so much for sharing your expertise. It was really fun to talk about these things with you. We are at the violence, parent, we talked a lot about parenting, parenting does not happen in isolation. It happens in a family. It happens with real people often with partners and it's I think it's so important to support the whole family system. So I really appreciate you coming in and helping with that.
Kimberly: Oh, I so appreciate you having me Laura, thank you so much.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.