Bonus: Live Coaching - Helping a Child Take Responsibility after a Mistake
/This week will have another bonus episode - a live coaching I did with one of my BalancingU community members. We will be talking about how to help a child take responsibility after a mistake WITHOUT forcing apologies. I hope that as you listen, you can pull out meaningful takeaways that apply to your family. And if there are, I'd like you to share your reflections on Instagram and tag me @laurafroyenphd.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: So tell me about your family and how I can help? You got a spirited, strong willed little one.
Lindsay: I do. So just a little bit of a brief background about a year and a half ago we moved from New York City to Paris and it's been amazing and intense of course, as moving internationally and adding covid into the mix woul d be. But by and large, I'm like so impressed with my family's response and my kiddos in particular. So when we moved here, my son was, I guess five. And I remember when he was in pre-k for at night going to bed, he would lay there in reaction or in anticipation of us moving here.
He would just start crying and say, you know, like what if they don't understand me? You know, because he is in a bilingual school, it's 80% French, 20% English and we don't speak any French. What if they don't understand me? What if I need to go to the bathroom? What if I need to drink? And he would cry, you know? And whereas my eight year old or at the time I guess was six was just sort of like, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I'm gonna roll with this. Right? So the interesting thing was, once we got here, it kind of reversed. She was now experiencing more of that and he was like, okay, let's go with this. Like this is pretty cool.
Laura: And that makes sense, right? Because the one got all of that out ahead of time and the other one was maybe feeling all those things but kept it in. Right?
Lindsay: Yeah, totally. So they went to different schools last year because he didn't get into the school that she did. Did great in school, super resilient. This year, now, they are in the same school together and same thing. He's like, so adaptable when it comes to new environments. So I just wanted to frame all that because there's just great stuff to say about him. He's a sensitive little guy and he's stubborn and has a very hard time moving past strong feelings. He's my guy who at three years old, maybe we would say something about like time out or something like this.
And he would go, no, no, he would say I'm going to put myself in time out. And he would go in the bedroom and close the door and just want to stay there. So it's sort of this, like, defiant nature. You know, you don't want me to do this or you're gonna punish me. I put myself there first. That's an early memory that comes on. And now I would say more what I think about is just that, like, once he gets in a funk or in a place he just stuck there.
Laura: And would you characterize him as kind of holding it together? Kind of school is really, really hard for him to hold it together. Do what he needs to do, be well regulated and then he comes home and it just kind of all comes out, is that kind of what's happening?
Lindsay: I would agree with that.
Laura: Yeah. Okay. I love… First of all how you framed this because we're never all just one thing, right? We all have all these parts of us and I love that you're seeing all of the good stuff, the awesome stuff in your son too. That's so important and that can get so lost when we're having a hard time when they're in a sticky face. Okay, so it sounds like you're wanting to help him learn how to not get stuck in some of those hard feelings or those thought patterns. Is that kind of what I'm hearing?
Lindsay: There's definitely that and I would just add to that. What I hear myself saying these days a lot is that he's kind of getting in his own way with those feelings. So he'll kind of get stuck there or not be able to move on. And what I've been explaining to him is that he's getting in his own way and potentially even making the situation worse versus being able to navigate out of it. And, you know, I view it as a skill of resiliency and adaptability and those are all things we strive and for in our family, obviously moving across the country, across the world, you know, attributes that are important. So not only do I want to help him now, cope better, but also just thinking of him being a little adult. Yeah.
Laura: Okay, so give me just a couple examples of things that he gets stuck in when you're, he's experiencing that. So you're seeing him kind of getting in his own way. Just a couple examples will help me.
Lindsay: Yeah, yeah. Of course, I’m glad you asked me.
Laura: I know right, like we have this like global idea that it is a certain way and it probably is. But then when we go for specifics are hard to find, hard to hold on to.
Lindsay: Yeah. Like, I mean I can try to kind of come up with something. It's like he fights in the system and it's like he has a hard time saying, I'm sorry, are you okay? Hey, it was an accident. She got hurt. You know, just be like, hey, are you okay? Like everything alright? You want me to get mom, you want to get dad, you know, whatever. And he won't say sorry. You know, this is like a really big deal because I think he thinks it's admitting guilt or that, or something. Then he'll just stew and not get off the couch or not move or not participate in the next activity. And you know, I'll say something like, gosh, you know, if you had just asked if she was okay, we want to show empathy for our system. We want to make sure, you know, and it's like you could have deescalated this whole thing. But because you were so fixated on not saying that, you know, things the family got, she got more upset, we got disappointed in you blah blah blah.
Laura: Absolutely. And you know, like, so in that moment, like there's a piece of this that's so important to understand for those kiddos who get stuck in times like that. I think in my experience with kids like this in those moments, they feel so badly about inadvertently hurting their sister or you know, whatever it is that, you know, they have this kind of sense of like this was bad or this was wrong, I did this wrong. And it's not that they don't feel bad about it, it's actually that they do and it's hard to think of themselves that way. And because they're young, you know, so he's only six, his ability to kind of quiet his own emotional experience of having hurt someone inadvertently.
Quiet that experience, hold that experience in one hand. And also at the same time see his sister's experience and have like, the empathy, that perspective taking as a very advanced skill in terms of emotional intelligence. I mean this is a skill that literally, if I'm working with couples, I have to teach the couples, the adult couples how to do how to have your own emotional experience here and at the same time witness and validate someone else's emotions experience, you know? All the time, we get stuck in places of like, well, I mean, even just like politically we hear like here… Well, I didn't mean it that way. And so you shouldn't be upset because I didn't mean it that way.
This is ability to hold space for your feelings of like, oh man, I did something that I didn't mean to hurt someone and I feel kind of bad about myself, but I also don't want to think badly about myself and all of that starts flowing and it stops us, that gets in the way of being able to be present with the impact of our words, you know? And have access to like the skills and tools that we could use to kind of get ourselves out of it, you know? One thing that can be helpful is to practice those things outside of the moment. I want to have a sense of, this is now I'm gonna ask you a question, so is this mostly in the moment when you're kind of addressing these things, practicing these skills, giving him like well you could just say, you know, or like close after it's happened, when he's still kind of stuck or we doing anything preventatively or proactively about building these skills for him.
Lindsay: It's a great question, I'm not sure if this is going to answer it, but what comes to mind when you are asking me the question is like, it will even continue the next day. Like, so the next, let's say, it happens around dinner time, you know, the evening will be this way we'll wake up the next day and be like, do you want to ask your sister anything, you know? How she's doing if her back still hurts and I'm not sure, I think you might be asking me the opposite direction or even like really disengaged from the event.
Laura: Yeah. Super disengaged from the event and then the other piece too is that, you know what I found with working with individuals of all ages with this issue, like social emotional skill that takes the lifespan to develop. And so one is like having like reasonable expectations for a six year old to, you know, so perspective, taking, putting yourself into someone else's shoes is a cognitive skill that develops in the 6-8 range for typically developing kids. And that range of course we know it's a bell curve, right? And so they give us the age ranges that is at the top, but then there's kids who are normal and typical who are either end of those curves too, you know?
And if we have a really emotionally intelligent older kid and then the younger one is a little bit slower and those things that can even look wider, like my kids really behind in this and that's not necessarily the case at all. So one thing that can be really helpful in these circumstances is to validate and empathize with the one who did the hurting first, to clear out their hurtingness. Just think about, like if you hurt your partner's feelings and you didn't mean to and they're upset and some defensiveness flares up in you, right? You have to do a little bit of soothing in yourself, right? A little bit of comforting. Like, oh, you know, you didn't mean to do that and you know, it's okay that you hurt your husband's feelings. You're still a good person, you still love him. You do a little bit of soothing before you then go and make the apology. Right?
So we kind of like, the kids can't always do that inside themselves. So a little bit of soothing, like, oh man, it must have really hurt to hurt your sister's feelings. You said something, it landed wrong on your sister and you didn't mean to hurt her feelings and then suddenly everybody was mad at you. Everybody was thinking that you did something mean and you didn't even mean to. I must have really been hard. You know, like, so that kind of empathizing on that piece of things, right? So that he's not he gets that empathy. That validation of like, yeah, I'm a good kid. I didn't mean to hurt my sister's feelings. I didn't, I didn't mean to do this thing wrong and it really feels like everyone's against me, kind of validating that perspective can help get some of his stuff cleared out of the way and allow him the space to be more apologetic. You know, when we give forgiveness, we’re more in return, we're more giving with our responsibility taking. I don't know if that's helpful at all.
Lindsay: I love that. It's something I've never thought about.
Laura: Yeah, okay, good. And then the other thing that it's sounding to me like he has some scripts and some narratives bubbling under the surface. You know, we all tell ourselves stories about ourselves all the time and I've never seen him and I've never heard him, but I'm guessing. And you could probably even tell me, like, what do you think he's thinking about himself? Like, when he's stuck these moments? So when we get stuck in feelings, we are often rehearsing thoughts about ourselves or about the people around us over and over in our minds. And it can be really helpful to find out what he's thinking about. So that, if once we know then we can speak to those narratives and start gently reshaping and helping them rescript those things before they get too entrenched. He's six, you know, like these still very malleable. These scripts and narratives are still very easy to work with, you know, when they're six. Do you know what he's thinking about himself for thinking about his family? Like, what his story is?
Lindsay: I think you're bringing up a really good point. I think you nailed him in the sense that, like, he's the kind of kid, like, even if he gets hurt physically, he won't say something. Well, kind of, like, maybe hear a noise and go back to the house and he's like, you know, holding it and it's like, well, gosh, like, come to us, you know? Whereas his sister was used to that kind of behavior. So I do think he's the type of person who's got a lot going on thinking things. So I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm gonna have to think about what his script would be. I think you're absolutely right that he's got one.
Laura: And so like in these preventative and proactive times when you are like, it's been a while, been a couple of days, maybe since something like this has happened. Then you can sit down and say, hey, you know, you remember the other day when this happened, it seemed like you got a little stuck in feeling bad about yourself and I was kind of curious about like if there were any like thoughts in your heads. If your brain was telling you anything about yourself or about your family, about maybe how we feel about you. I was just curious if your brain was telling you anything about those, about yourself and about and and just see what he says? You know, and you can also model this for him to awareness of your thoughts.
So like just in like everyday situations so, like let's say, you're getting a cup of coffee and you spilled it on the counter. Maybe your first thought in that moment is like, I'm such a klutz. So you may even say like, oh my brain is telling me that I'm clumsy, but I know I'm human and everybody makes mistakes. You can say that out loud, like not like to him, but to yourself, but just kind of have that like self coaching happening, you know that we do. I don't know if you do this, but I do this all the time. Like I have the script that I developed in childhood, you know, where I need to be perfect in order to be loved comes out and then I self correct. You know, like yeah, it is hard to make mistakes, but you're human and everybody does and you know, and so sometimes doing that out loud can be really helpful too, just as modeling the thought process.
And there's a book that I really like, I don't know if you would call him an overtly anxious kid, but he is what you how you're describing him as making some anxiety like bells pop up in my head because sometimes anxiety when it's internalized looks different than what we think about a kid who, you know, like he bumps himself, he gets hurt and he doesn't tell you. He probably also isn't telling you when he's having worries or fears sometimes too, you know? So, this book Anxiety Relief for Kids is basically a manual that teaches parents how to do cognitive behavioral therapy techniques with their kids.
Lindsay: Awesome!
Laura: And it's lovely. And what I was just talking about is basically what this book teaches. So this is something that you can grab and there's little just little things in there to help them become aware of their thoughts and start working with their thoughts. And thoughts were recognizing that, just because the neuron fires in your brain giving you a thought doesn't mean it's true. That your brain will say things that are random and not true all the time. And just cause you're thinking, it doesn't mean it's true.
Recognizing thoughts that are unhelpful and then starting to work with them and make different kind of actively choose different thoughts. Those things can be really helpful skills for everybody to have everybody in the house, especially for a kid who maybe is getting stuck in their thoughts, in the story that they're telling themselves about themselves. Another one that I really like, that I don't have here because it's in my daughter's room because she likes it. My oldest is like your son in this way, but it's called Sam and the Negative Voice. And that's a book for kids that basically teaches you about how we all have an inner critic and an inner coach. And that sometimes our inner critic can be really loud, but when we let it be loud, it stops us from enjoying life. Yeah, so I like that one.
And then there's another book that my kids like to around kind of perfectionism and making mistakes and being graceful with yourself. It's called The Girl Who Never Made Mistake. So I like that book too if you're looking for kids books for them. The concept of an inner coach and an inner critic can also be helpful to teach to kids. It's helpful for parents too. I mean, my inner critic is extremely active and loud sometimes and knowing that kind of externalizing it, giving it a little bit of distance from me, knowing that that negative voice inside my head isn't me, but that's just the negative voice, you know, that's something else. And then being able to talk back with it and have a conversation with it is also just a helpful skill for kids to learn.
And then one other practice that you can be engaging in is engaging in recognizing as an exercise, as a family, recognizing when you've made a mistake and how you can be kind to yourself when you've made a mistake. Because that's really what's getting in his way, right? So he makes a mistake and he's hard on himself, so hard on himself that it prevents him from seeing, you know, being able to be there to repair the mistake that he's made, right? One daily practice that we do in our family as we go around the table saying that like, one thing that we did well today that we're proud of, one thing, mistake we made. And then one way that we were kind to ourselves about the mistake. And so that's just like modeling, noticing that every day we do things well, every day we make mistakes and every day we have a chance to be kind to ourselves. I feel like I'm giving you a lot of information. Can… Do you wanna, like, give me your feedback. Let me know what you're thinking questions. I feel like I overwhelm you. I'm so sorry.
Lindsay: No, no, no, it was perfect. And like you, you weren't joking when you said we were gonna get a lot done, but like, it wasn't in an overwhelming way, it's just like you gave me something and I was like that, okay, you can't really top that. And then you gave me something else. I was like, well, yep, she sure can. The third time or fourth time. That was beautiful. I love that. I do have a question going back to the one of the first things you said, which was when providing empathy at that time, when, you know, wow, you hurt your sister, you didn't mean to do that. And that must have been really hard, that whole thing. What do you suggest a step after that would be?
Laura: Yeah. Okay, so, first of all, just framing that, don't do that in front of your daughter. So that's something that happens privately with your son. We don't always have to subject our kids to our empathy for the other person. That's when it starts to feel like we're taking sides, right? So if we're going to be super empathetic, really coming alongside. Really kind of on one kid's side do that in private so that you can also be on the other kids side. This is part of being having multi directed partiality. Sometimes you need to do things privately so that they feel fully supported by you.
So first of all when you go in with that empathy, you can't go in with the goal of making them want to apologize. You have to go in with the mindset that regardless of what they just did, they are also hurting, right? So holding space that a person can hurt someone and be hurting at the same time and that your only goal, your only agenda is to help them feel seen and supported and unconditionally loved in that moment. And so if we go in with the goal of like I'm only validating so that you will apologize will rush it and they'll feel it, they'll feel it's not authentic, not real.
Your mindset is super important and then afterwards sit for a minute, how you feeling? All right, what do you think we should do? So getting curious and inviting their instinct is the next thing you know? What do you think we should do about this? Okay, we're feeling better now. What should we do? What do you think we can do? I can hear your sister still crying. What do you think? So you can maybe just get a little curious with just some little nudges and see what they do. Sometimes they have really good ideas for ways to apologize or make up that we would never think of and that allow them to save face. You know? That allows them to repair and apologize in ways that are authentic and true to them.
You know, I think adults sometimes have ideas about, you know, how a repair and apology is supposed to look. Kids often need very different things. So like one of the things that my five year old does in these moments like this is that, after we have our talking she almost always grabs a piece of paper and draws a picture of her and her sister together holding hands and slips that to her and that is the apology and that's all the apology her older sister needs. And so it's tempting as an adult to force, you know, saying the words I shouldn't have said that, you know, I can see how that hurt your feelings and often we don't always have to do that. We might say that to our own kid, kind of for the one we had a chance to talk and “Oh man, he feels so bad about the way he said that. He didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but he sees now how it could have”.
You know, and we sometimes, so sometimes it's just modeling for them the words to say because they don't always know the language, but also giving them the ability to just do whatever it is. That's their own language. My kids often give each other little gifts as apologies. You know, like little stones that they found out on a rock or my eight year old often allows, you know when she's apologizing in those moments she will offer the younger one a chance to sleep with one of her stuffed animals that she doesn't normally get to sleep to. Those are beautiful, childlike, heartfelt apologies that are more effective than anything we can make our kids do, you know? Is that helpful? Does that answer?
Lindsay: Yeah, that's really helpful. Would you recommend in the moment, like separate, like going and having that private. Like right away like right when it happens?
Laura: You know your kid best. I'm guessing that he will need practice, proactive practice with some of the self soothing, some of the thought work stuff before he's ready for you to immediately go there with him. He may need some time to just get some big feelings, especially like if he is like when this is happening, he's feeling vulnerable. So this is about vulnerability. He feels vulnerable when he makes this mistake, he feels badly about himself. I am guessing that he's having lots of thoughts about, you know, bad thoughts about himself or thoughts about like I'm all alone, no one gets me, whatever it is. You know, he maybe needs a little bit of time with those feelings before he's ready. You know him best. Like if you went in with nothing but empathy. “Oh buddy. Oh you must be really upset. You didn't mean to hurt her feelings and you did and you feel so bad and now it seems like everyone's mad at you”. Like you, do you know, like how he would respond to that?
Lindsay: I don't but I'm really curious to find out.
Laura: Give it a try. Like worse that could happen would be like he'd be like – get out, go away. You know? And slam the door. You know, that might happen.
Lindsay: Like, just want to go into his room and like he will be in there for an hour if I let them. Reading whatever and like fine, not angry, not throwing stuff just like hey I'm being in here, I really don't want to see anyone right now.
Laura: I think often in the peaceful parenting community we get the idea that we're not supposed to let our kids do that, that we're not supposed to let our kids be alone with their feelings but some kids need to be, and if that's what they're telling you that they need in that I would respect them. You can always circle back, circling back as always an option. Regulate, let them calm down, you know, let them, you know, soothe so that they are open and available for, to our guidance, you know? I think it's okay. But you can also ask him too, so this is another thing that can happen in some of those proactive conversations, you know, like hey! you know when you make a mistake, just like everybody makes mistakes.
And you're really hard on yourself, what do you want me to do? I know you're really upset, I want to be able to be there for you, but sometimes it seems like you just want to be alone. So what would be helpful when that happened? What could I say to help you? What could I do? Getting curious with them on those things and then just trusting them, you know, trusting them to know what they need. I do think that too though, like separating can be helpful, like, I mean often they do it by themselves, I think, I don't know in your family, but they take themselves away from the situation. But sometimes separating needs to happen even just for the vulnerability of being able to fully empathize with one kid without the other kids seeing it. You know?
Lindsay: Yeah, you bring up something in my mind which I didn't even realize I was gonna think about today, which is like I always have a hard time in that moment because she's hurt and not being even able to validate her, give her like that attention that she deserves because I'm so focused on him because he's that problem or he's the person that requires the attention or the skill or the lesson where she's just and I feel so… Yeah.
Laura: Absolutely. And so like in those moments, like we don't need to teach him a lesson. First of all, he is the kind of the natural consequence of his sister crying as the most beautiful teacher available. But his own like, sense of shame or blame or self judgment is likely getting in the way of him being able to learn that lesson, right? Because we, when we're in a place of shame or blame or judgment are learning centers in our brain are turned off, right? So, he can't even learn a lesson when he's there. I mean something similar just happened last night in my own house. My youngest daughter was making a face and we all thought that it was a joke face, but she was actually upset and she got even more upset and we all like the three of us were like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
Right away, she accepted my husband's and my apologies for kind of reading the situation wrong, but my eight year old lost it. About like, just lost it and went off to her room and ran off and like that we just let that go. You know, because she was just in a tender place of having accidentally hurt her sister's feelings and then feeling as if she was bad and wrong, you know? So, we eventually made all that up, you know? But yeah, sometimes like we got to go to the one who's hurting, understanding that the other one is likely hurting too just in a little bit different way. But yeah, if like someone gets physically hurt or have their feelings hurt, a little bit of soothing is not for them and knowing that the lesson, nothing will be lost in the time in our meaning. You know, the lesson is always going to be available there for them to learn.
Lindsay: It's a good reminder because I think I feel that in the moment. I'm like, I've got, you know, this is the time when I've got to do this. It's freshen our mind, but actually it's probably not even a place where they're able to take in.
Laura: Yeah, exactly. We also like have this pressure of like they need to know it's not okay. They wouldn't be upset if they didn't know it wasn't okay. They would not be upset right then. So like the fact that he's upset tells you like he knows this isn't okay and if he could be doing better handling this better right now, he would be, you know? He would be doing better if he could in that moment say like, oh wow, I screwed up and I'm so sorry. He would do that. A hundred percent he would do that. And I bet there's times at school where he does that with his friends or whatever and he just, for some reason at home in that moment, he can't. He doesn't have that skill available to him and it's not because he's a bad kid or because he's unempathetic or anything. Just he just didn't, wasn't able to right then.
Lindsay: Yeah, this is so awesome. You’re amazing!
Laura: Thank you so much Lindsay. This is so much fun. Ok, So I have a strange question. You can think about this, but I think so many people would benefit from this conversation. So just think about it. What would you think about me using this as a podcast episode and then I give you another whole session just for you. Just curious.
Lindsay: Totally down for that.
Laura: Oh, yey! Because I feel like this stuff is almost everybody needs to know about these things. Thank you!
Lindsay: I'm glad to reversal and that. That it could benefit other people. That makes me very happy.
Laura: Oh, it would so benefit other people. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time and your vulnerability. I really appreciate it.
Lindsay: Like, gosh! To have another session with you would be incredible because my husband wanted it to be able to join for this and I'll be able to do is play this for him with the recording and then we'll be able to kind of gather our thoughts around another future session that hopefully all three of us can be in together.
Laura: Yes, that would be awesome. So what I'll do is when I send this, I'll send you a link for, to schedule an hour long session and then you can just get on my calendar.
Lindsay: Amazing. This is like a win for everybody. Thank you.
Laura: Oh my gosh! It's a huge one for me. I feel so blessed that you said yes to that. Thank you.
Lindsay: Thanks for your time. Your perspective is really special. Thank you again.
Laura: Oh, thank you. You take good care. You are… They're so lucky to have you as their mom. They're so lucky.
Lindsay: Thank you. Bye.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!