Episode 196: Navigating Parental Anxiety and Effectively Managing It for a Successful Life with Dr. Kirk Schneider
/Welcome to another episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, where we dive deep into how anxiety shows up for parents and how we can use it to live more fulfilling lives. I'm joined by Dr. Kirk Schneider, a licensed psychologist, author, and director of the Existential Humanistic Institute, whose latest work explores how to thrive through life’s contradictions.
Here are some of the key takeaways:
Defining and understanding anxiety
Explore Life-Enhancing Anxiety and how to incorporate this beneficial perspective into your mental health approach as a parent
How to cultivate a sense of awe in everyday life, and how this benefits our and our children's wellness and relationships
Overcoming parental fear of "messing up" children and responding intentionally
If you’re looking to connect with Dr. Schneider and learn more of his work, visit his website kirkjschneider.com, Linkedin @kirkschneider, and his YouTube channel @kirkschneider
Resources:
Join us as we discuss ways to work with anxiety and develop tools to manage it effectively.
I would love to hear from you! If you have any questions you’d like to have answered on the podcast or any takeaways or wins you’d like to share you can leave me a message here: https://www.speakpipe.com/laurafroyenphd
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen. And on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we're gonna be talking about you, the parent and anxiety and how it shows up for you. And how all right, we can use it effectively, move through it and go on to have successful lives. So to help me with this conversation, I'm bringing in Kirk Schneider. Thank you so much for being here with us. I'm so excited to talk with you about your work. Will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?
Kirk: Well, thank you very much, Laura, I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and your audience. Well, I'm a licensed psychologist. I have limited practice. I write, I give workshops. I am director of a training institute called the Existential Humanistic Institute. We might get into definitions later that are mouthful. And I also have written or co-written a number of books, the latest of which are the polarized mind, the depolarizing of America. And my latest book is Life Enhancing anxiety key to a sane world. And that's kind of the culmination of a lot of my previous work because it's very much about supporting people to, to work with and to even thrive from the contrasts and contradictions that come up in our lives. And certainly that is true in family situations and parenting and, in just our daily lives. I just feel that one of the reasons we have so much anxiety in the world and so much destructive anxiety is precisely because we're not facing the deeper what some would call existential anxieties that could help us to stave off the, the great inadequacy we have in dealing with anxiety later in life without the tools and the skills to work with it.
Laura: Can you tell me a little bit because I feel like we all have a general anxiety or understanding of what anxiety means, you know, we think about it as worries, we maybe think about it as that buzzy type feeling in our chest or our stomach, you know, but what does things like? What is anxiety to you? At least in the way that you understand it or conceptualize it?
Kirk: Well, my understanding of anxiety is based on my own journey with it as well as a clinician. I'm a researcher. It's basically a terror of the unknown and it's very primal. And I think it's quite universal. I mean, of course, there's no way to prove this. But, my sense is that it begins at birth with all of us. And this here, I'm echoing the psychoanalyst Otto rank who wrote a really trailblazing work called The Trauma of Birth. I don't quite agree that it's a trauma of birth. I call it the drama of birth because I think it has elements of trauma for sure, especially at the beginning. On the heels of that are also elements of wonder and I'll go into that momentarily. But so I define anxiety as the terror of the unknown. And it begins at birth in the sense that it involves it, it really can be traced to that crucible, that intense shift from relative non being and unity with the mother. And you could say with creation or the cosmos to sudden abrupt beings and pandemonium and vulnerability. What's that?
Laura: And vulnerability.
Kirk: What's that? And vulnerability? Absolutely. When we're thrown into this world full of colors and lights and confusion, confusing people and things. It's extremely disorienting and there, there have been actually physiological studies to all this Karolinska Institutet in Sweden did a series of studies at birth in terms of the release of stress hormones and they're off the charts, they're higher than normal adult stress and higher even than severe adult stress. So I imagine all the activation that's going on when as kids, we're just plunged into this chaotic, uncontrolled, vulnerable position. And so that's why I think we do see the kind of shock, the initial shock often at, you know, emerging from the womb going through the vaginal canal. I mean, you're shifting in a major way, right? From a kind of passive receptive mode to sudden huge action.
Laura: And it's so fascinating to, yeah, I mean, I, so I know you're kind of talking about this on the, the end of like, we all went through this, right? So we all were born, we all went through this, this big shift from kind of non being and unity and into being. But as a mom who had, you know, so today happens to be my nine year old's birthday as I'm talking to you. Yeah, I mean, but I can't, I cannot help thinking about her and her coming into the world process and, you know, she's such a deeply aware being and always has been, her whole life. She has spent like pulling up my shirt and crawling, like going underneath my shirt and expressing the desire that she'd like to be back inside with me. I feel so curious about how you would make sense of that because I, I don't necessarily hear that about lots of kids, but this kid wants that unity again with me. Like if she could crawl inside, she would.
Kirk: And I see what it looks like. Emotion comes up for you when you talk about her and it's very powerful. You know, I feel like many of us have a longing to return to that you could call it paradise. I mean, some have said that the you know, the biblical ideal of paradise is fashioned after that initial sense of being at one, right? The mother with, with the universe, the source, whatever you wanna call it. Period of total harmony and grace and then, then we're fighting to try to manage. So I, I don't think that's unusual at all. And, and of course, we get into the whole issue of attachment, attachment theory being the power of the need for bonding with the parent for finding a kind of ground. I call that ground within groundlessness, that is our ultimate condition. Actually. We do the best we can to find these places that we can find stability. But, you know, we're a planet that's whirling around the sun. It's 67,000 MPH nested in a galaxy that's flying through the universe at 1.2 million MPH to a destination. We have no idea about from an origin. We have no idea about, at least most people that I know.
Laura: No wonder we feel anxious.
Kirk: Yeah. So that's part of what I'm my point here is that it's a very normal and natural existential anxiety to have a terror of the unknown coming into. Yeah, that which is uncontrolled, uncontained uh that which is radically different. So dealing with differences seems to begin at that point as well, that which is other foreign and radically different from where we were before. And, and so, the question of how we're met at that point is really, really important And throughout our lives, I would say because we do have this background sensibility that can get reactivated, especially for traumatized, which is a kind of ripping open of the fabric of the routine and familiar this primal state of groundless and helplessness, right? So yeah, I think your, child, I mean, and certainly my child in earlier years, especially, you know, long for that contact. I long for that contact being held.
So in developing that grounding, I think an important point here is to realize how, again, how deep the need goes. I wanna underscore that word primal because I do think it is basically the template for all future anxiety and trauma that we experience. And if we don't have tools and skills to work with that primal terror of the unknown, to begin to be more present and presence is a keyword here too, we present to that which is other and foreign. And if we're bombarded with all kinds of fears by the parents and by the culture that surrounds them and often these are transmitted fears over generations that we're not even wit, witting off. So subliminal signals to the child that you must, you know, stay away from that, you must stay away from this group or this person or this idea
Laura: Or this part of yourself.
Kirk: Or this part of yourself, right? All kinds of new things emerge in oneself when one's agitated in that process too and we are lost, right? So the lack of support and understanding can be a real killing. The lack of really to the degree possible experiencing this relationship and this child especially as something amazing and as a gift. You know, I'm not trying to over romanticize because I know that, you know, there's all kinds of, you know, they're born with meconium, right? I mean, detritus, all kinds of dirt and you know, poop and all kinds of stuff.
Laura: No, but I still appreciate Kirk for what you're saying because, you know, so around here, we definitely believe that children are born whole beings worthy of dignity, respect and the full range of human experience, right from the very beginning. And I really appreciate the added lens that you're offering right now. I think gosh, if I had little, you know, little babies right now, I think I could view them even more compassionately. Like I think I always met them with a plate. A sense of like who this is big, this is new, you're new to this world, you know. But, you're heightening that for me quite a lot. Right now, I feel a lot of compassion for our little ones. You know, they are so new to the world and the way they get taught about the world can be so harsh sometimes. But I'm thinking too about the parents listening to this and the fact that most of us weren't met in those, in those times, you know, we experienced this too and we grew up learning coping skills, ways to soothe those anxieties that perhaps weren't so helpful. And now all the, all my clients, all the people in my membership community, they're trying to unlearn all of those things. I would love to, I don't know, talk about kind of what all this means for them.
Kirk: Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I think our culture and many cultures like ours and even unlike ours are not, are not very good at needing children, right? Supportive and validating wages. I mean, just at a very basic level of being able to validate this being, this new being. Comes into the world. And to express one's love for that being through full presence, that there is a very basic way that we demonstrate the love and we express it. And as you say, you know, being able to affirm well, that they are bringing as well as a place for them when they arrive so critical. So what we're heading toward is, you know, again, the thesis of life-enhancing anxiety, I really see that as another level of anxiety actually because I'm not sure we ever get rid of anxiety. I'm not even sure it's a great thing to do.
Laura: I call anxiety, my lifelong friends. That's how I, how I relate to it.
Kirk: I like the tone of that. I mean, another way to put anxiety is as a life force, a life energy. I recall an interview with Emma Stone who did a wonderful film I thought poor things. And boy, that was a lesson in life-enhancing anxiety which I'll go into in a moment. But she apparently grew up, she shared with the interviewer, she grew up with a great deal of panic and anxiety as a kid, excessive compulsiveness. And through psychotherapy, she said that she has come to a place where she sees her anxiety as her superpower. She actually uses that word now that may sound like an overreach in some ways. But basically, she was saying that it helps her activate and get up in the morning. And you know, if, if you know how to work with it, it can energize you. It's a life energy. So life life-enhancing anxiety is the capacity to come into a place of gradually a place of wonder and discovery or the edge of wonder and discovery as opposed to terror and overwhelm.
Laura: So a different way of being with the unknown.
Kirk: A different way of being with the unknown. I mean, my philosophical definition is it's a capacity to live with and make the best of the depth and mystery of existence, which is kind of heaven. But more concretely, it's the ability to have the capacity to live with and make the best of being on the edge of wonder and discovery as distinct from terror and anxiety. So, yes, more comfortable with that, which is other and different and the uncontained, more present and by presence, I mean, a heightened awareness. But more than that therapeutically, we call it an existential humanistic terms. The holding and illuminating of that which is palpably like, feel significant within the child and between the child and parent or within the client, between the client and therapist. So it's a holding as a holding function, meaning creation of a sense of safety of sanctuary, of being able to hold or contain so much that is coming up in those of floundering, talks about this, the great psychoanalyst holding environment and through the holding and being able to stay with learning to stay with these contrasts and differences and contradictions that come up as we grow. We begin to discover illuminate our world, discover more about ourselves and others and our relationship to the world and thereby grow people and hopefully live with more of a discovery orientation, fear based orientation. Now, that's what I mean by the life-enhancing anxiety, you're living with a degree of anxiety that becomes more of a life energy and that can open you to a greater inner freedom.
Laura: Right? Because it pushes you towards curiosity and discovery and deepening of understanding. I feel very, very curious about this because there are, you know, when I think about myself and in my own mind, I'm feeling of awe and wonder and delight and curiosity. They are such things that I value very deeply and I love and can easily access in certain circumstances. But when I'm, it's much harder. Gosh, I mean, borderline, I mean, this is not something I've ever worked on or heard about before. So this is not something I approached in my studies. So I'm very excited to get to ask you this. So I would like to think within myself if I were just thinking about this question before and not talking with you, I would think that they were almost, you know, at two ends of the spectrum. Like I don't even know how to sit in awe and wonder and curiosity because those are such positive feelings for me when I'm also afraid, like feeling fear or worry Right. Like it feels like I would, I don't even know how I could do that. So I'm like, in super intrigued.
Kirk: Well, you're not alone, Laura. I think we're all struggling with attempting to find that, that sense of possibility and delight being and living. But actually, I define it very paradoxically, I don't see it as just, just a positive experience in, at least in a superficial sense, like some of the positive psychology these days about achieving happiness can, can be a little one dimensional.
Laura: So agree.
Kirk: But the capacity to be deeply moved. That means being in touch with one's vulnerability. I see a as a wonderful transcendental term because it precisely because it captures the contrasts and contradictions of our living that, that it gets us in touch with our, our deep vulnerability as well as our incredible capacity to venture out, to take risks, to wonder, to feel that we're participating in something much greater than ourselves. But it's, to me, it's the whole enchilada, it's not one or the other and they, they go together, I mean, if it's just all sweetness and light, where is the depth?
Laura: No, and you can't have one without the other.
Kirk: I think so. This is actually my concern with a recent book called A Ner, which is an excellent overview of the concept from ex quantitative experimental research. But I think partly because of the methodology used. It limits our understanding of law to something almost along the line of that kind of one dimensional happiness. I mean, he actually says in there that experiences like fear and horror and dread don't go along with a sense of awe. And I, I think that's.
Laura: You disagree. Yeah.
Kirk: Yes, I can see that. But I think for many people, the deeper sense of awe is feeling in the background, let's say you're connecting with your child. And I'm thinking of, you know, us and hiking or in the ocean together. There is this poignancy of how significant this human being is and that goes to fears of loss of vulnerability, fragility, you know, as well as how wonderful and, and amazing this time is.
Laura: Actually, I don't, I don't know that I would ever have seen that. It's making me tear up to think about that under those under that, ah, there is that sadness and fear that we're scared to look at. We're scared to acknowledge. Okay. You know, I don't get to have these philosophical discussions very often. Kirk. I'm so glad to be able to have them with you. I feel very curious if we can make it this a little bit practical for the parents who are listening. I'm thinking about one of the most common fears I hear from parents and maybe we can even talk it through with some of that a little bit from your perspective. Does that, would that be okay with you? I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot. I hope that's okay. Okay. So, I mean, so a lot of the parents that I work with are learning how to not parent from fear. Right. So a lot of the kind of reactive parenting that we're trying to let go of comes from a place of fear, you know, stop that right now. Don't say that respect your elders, you know, like it, it's all coming from a place of how will we be perceived, will we be safe and loved and protected if we do these things, you know, all of those questions that are, you know, the questions that you've been talking about. So that's, I mean, that's definitely one of the things that parents are working on is releasing those fears. But I feel like you might even have an alternative for looking at, at that, at the, when those fears, when parents recognize those fears are bubbling up that I think the common language for parents is to release them. But I don't think that that necessarily would be what you would ask us to do.
Kirk: You're right on with it.
Laura: Yeah, tell us what we, what to do with those fears.
Kirk: So I distinguish between reactivity and responsibility, reaction versus response. I think one of the great problems we get into as parents or when we're really agitated and we're in those raw places is that we're reactive. Absolutely. Fear driven where you know, we're terrified of that unknown, of being out of control and insignificant, react often with anger or with trying to take control of that situation urgently and scrambling. There's a lot of scrambling in them to change it right away. So it's understandable. So what I suggest is to try to put it in some concrete, more concrete terms and to help develop presence. I'm sorry, is pause, reflect and respond versus immediately react to the degree possible. Take a moment to collect yourself to take a nice full breath. I know we don't sometimes we don't have a lot of moments, but it's a nice full breath diaphragmatic from the belly and, you know, creating more of that kind of contact within connection, an interconnection and a sense of holding in a way like you like in a way you're, you're holding your own being.
Laura: Yeah, and holding space for the fears that are coming up.
Kirk: Right. Exactly. You're coexisting. You're beginning to coexist a little bit with those fears and that really panicked, panicky place and then take a few moments to check in, reflect on what's really operating here because it's very hard to respond in a responsible way. Responsible way if we don't have a sense of what's operating, we're being driven by all kinds of unwitting impulses and transmissions from the past and maybe generational, you know, prejudices, biases, assumptions. So, to be able to come into that place more of, to the degree you can being curious about or inquiring of what is operating here for me before I go into this situation with my kid. You know, is it, I had a bad day. Maybe that's what's operating here and maybe I can get through that a little easier when I recognize. Oh, yeah, that guy really pissed me off but a half hour ago, that's what's really operating as distinct from. Oh, yeah, I felt like that as a kid when my parent did this or when that other boy, you know, said this to me and, and maybe it's even deeper, you know, I had a great loss.
Somebody died in my family where they hadn't known this. That's part of the background of what's going on with me right now. So some things might require, sort of, the image of wrapping it up, putting it in a box and on the shelf if you can for a period of time where you can revisit it later to process it. Maybe even with a therapist and I am a big crusader for therapy, therapy. Not just because I'm a therapist, but very much because therapies two in particular were life changing for me. So, I feel that those for me were absolutely critical to learning, presence in my life. So reflecting, so we got pause, reflect, get a sense of what's operating, take a deep breath and then after we've centered ourselves more and, hopefully, are able to coexist with these different parts of ourselves a little more or in a better position now to respond, meaning more deliberative, a more thoughtful or reflective way of interacting, engaging kid. So instead of, you know, just slapping him aside, maybe we threw that breath and collecting ourselves. We you know, tell the kid that he's got to take a time out for a certain period of time or you know, in an authoritative way rather than authoritarian
Laura: Set, a limit of boundary that needs to happen.
Kirk: Boundaries. Yeah, certain boundaries, you know, if you keep up like this, you're not gonna see your favorite show tonight or we need to take some time here before.
Laura: Yeah, I mean, giving ourselves the time out is also an option. Always an option to our own time. Yeah. Taking our own time out.
Kirk: That, I mean, taking a walk.
Laura: Yes, taking a walk, getting outside.
Kirk: Really helpful. We know that exercise can lift mood. That could be great for the kid too.
Laura: Yeah, absolutely.
Kirk: I'm outside.
Laura: Help me connect this new understanding of awe to the fears and worries that we're trying to not be driven by like, how can we go? So I'm thinking about the, you know, those moments where maybe we're triggered, we think, you know, our kids just talked back to us and our fear is that we're gonna raise disrespectful entitled kids. How can we use this new understanding of all that you're helping us cultivate, to approach that fear? Like, what would that look or sound like in our own minds or in our journaling kind of just in how we're thinking about that worry of raising just for the sake of, you know, of this example, disrespectful kids.
Kirk: Well, again, if we're taking that pause and we're reflecting on what's going on, hopefully we have a clearer sense of whether this is a growing pattern and it's entrenched in the kid's personality. And we start looking at what are we doing that may be into that? Are we reinforcing it or are we asserting, you know, more healthy boundaries for the kid?
Laura: I feel like there's also a wandering around like, what does disrespect mean and look like? And is what the kid doing actually disrespectful or is it just what our culture has defined to be disrespectful? I feel like there's opportunities for some deep questioning of some of our societal and cultural norms and our own understandings of these things?
Kirk: Absolutely. It's, obviously not a simple issue. Yeah. No, it's not, I'm just like, I just feel like when parents are faced with these worries, they don't feel that same sense of awe that they might feel, well, you know, on a hike and overlooking a beautiful vista or like the feeling I get when I'm standing with my daughter next to the ocean that just kind of that big or small or fleeting, this is important feeling. I don't tell, what it will feel like. You know, they just, I'm just, I'm so intrigued by this idea of approaching these moments with that awe and wonder.
Kirk: I think that the sense of awe and wonder is absolutely critical for parents for all of us to cultivate prior to many of these upsetting agitating.
Laura: Yes, definitely.
Kirk: Because we're in a much better position to pause, reflect and respond to react. That's that's a big part of my point in the book is, you know, developing the skills to stay with our own vulnerability, to work with it, to recognize how over-identified we may be with certain aspects of ourselves. And they're usually very negative judgments because we haven't been provided, you know, a space to explore and unpack where those messages are coming from and they're often coming from our own parents or the way we perceive our parents viewing those. By exploring, those I over-identifications with the kind of petty and narrow ways that we devalue ourselves. We start questioning those. We, hopefully come into the more of who we are and see that I'm not just this little piece of crap on the ground that it should be kicked, you know. What my kid is saying to me right now doesn't have to turn me into that little piece of junk. But the thing that you, you just kick around. I am not that it can lead to recognition. I am much more and I recognize that. Yeah, I hopefully have much more of a sense of the amazement, the gift, the awesomeness of life.
This precious moment. I called a flash between two voids, birth and death. Coming more from that perspective. I'm not saying that one won't get angry, one won't get maybe even, you know, very hurt at times, of course, but I think it cultivating, making that a lifetime cultivation, not just through sunsets or hikes, but taking time to step back in the everyday. Whether you're walking in a city through a city or you're maybe you've been observing your child. You're observing your own breathing, your aliveness, being able to notice the extraordinary in the ordinary, all those ways can help us to cultivate a sense of awe that helps to enlarge or sense of life in our self ourselves so that we're coming from a larger perspective in these stressful places so that the anger, the hurt is likely to be more temporary and not trigger off the panic. Yeah, that would otherwise occur if, if we hadn't developed these tools.
Laura: It's almost like a perspective, being able to have a wider and broader perspective. And I can imagine too, for parents, the more we cultivate that for ourselves and for our own experience and our own kind of broadened understanding of our own complexity as humans. It would help us be able to offer that same kind of broadened understanding of our Children. I know that when I'm in a triggered moment, it is so hard for me to see the complexity of my Children. They seem like they're just one thing in those moments. They're being snotty, they're being, you know, they are, they are embodying that and that's all they are. And I would imagine that by doing this cultivating process that you were talking about and broadening our sense of self. We'd also be able to broaden that our sense of that in others.
Kirk: Yes, precisely. And also model that to our Children. It's important to realize that much of what Children learn from us is not so much what we say, but what we do, we walk our talk, observational learning is really, really powerful. You're aware of that.
Laura: And yeah, they're social learners, observational learners for sure.
Kirk: Kids are watching us. They're watching who we are, what we are. So as we go through life and how we handle things and handle our, you know, our spouses and our employers or fellow, you know, citizens or friends, all kinds of aspects, right? And so this, this all speaks to that too of a capacity to be more responsive in the world rather than reactive. And by the way, I call the reactive mind, the polarized mind, which is fear driven, polarized mind is the fixation on a single point of view to the other explosion of competing points of view. And that's a problem in parenting. That's a problem in the political sphere, in the cultural sphere, in the ethnic sphere. Just about any sphere where we have crises right now, we're dealing with polarized minds often that just only see red and they can't see beyond they're fear driven panic. Yeah, the point of view because it touches on something that has not been worked with enough or held and worked towards. And so yeah, it's a tall order. There's no question. And, again, I think psychotherapy can be very helpful, especially depth psychotherapy and psychotherapy that involves a real relationship with your therapist. Aspects of it involve the genuine connection and learning ways of being with that therapist that activate these various areas in yourself that get triggered.
Laura: Yeah, I think kids are good at activating those parts that need work too and they're so good. They're such our partners even though they're testing. Yeah. And it's not their job to activate those things. It's just a by-product of them being who they are. Right. But they are so good at showing us where we have work and growth.
Kirk: Yeah. And I don't wanna shy away from, you know, points like, you communicated to your kid that is hurtful to me. You know, I wanna talk to you about this but I don't think you're in a place to talk about this right now and I'm not in a place to talk about this right now. So let's cool our heels for a few moments. And whatever it is, time out or taking a walk. Asserting some kind of boundary that we put you more in a position to respond rather than to react.
Laura: React. Yeah, I know, you know, so many of the parents that I work with are looking for that being able to move to reactivity to responsiveness and everything that you're saying is completely in line with what these parents are doing and working towards that. I feel curious about it, I have kind of one last question. I feel like I've had you for a while. I hope it's okay. I have one last little thing I just wanted to put in there. So this is kind of an existential fear a little bit. So, I think the biggest fear that I hear from the parents that I work with is that they are scared, they're going to screw their kids up, that they're gonna mess it up, you know, that they will put their kids out into the world with wounding that they did. And I just feel kind of curious, you know, I don't know that you probably don't have any answers, but just can we end on a, what you would say to those parents who are facing that fear of screwing up their kids?
Kirk: I would say often our fears of, of things like that or just our, our fear fantasies tend to be much worse than the reality of the situation. They often exaggerate the realities of the situation. And so I think we need to be mindful that a few things that go awry or that, you know, feel like they be really screwed up there is likely not gonna screw the kid up for life. And we learned this in therapy too, what we call therapeutic ruptures, compliant and therapists, right? Times where there's a mismatch where, you know, we feel like our therapists really, really didn't get us there or belittled us. But the chance to work with and work through to the degree possible those ruptures is key and that's where the good therapists you know, will revisit it and they'll see. Oh, yeah, man, I really blew that or they'll admit it or, you know, let's unpack that. Let's talk about it. Let's talk it through. I think it's a chance for parents to do that, to know that. Try to talk it through, you know, apologize. Not, not in a namby pamby way, but if you genuinely feel apologetic, you know, I made a mistake there and I'm sorry, and I will be more careful in the future. But I also, I'm concerned about how, how you reacted, let's say here and I'm open to talking about this meeting with you and often kids don't want to talk about it most of the time. I'm sorry, I just wanted to mention the importance of parents having great conversations with their kids that brings presents as well, taking time to discuss really important themes that come up in their lives, in the books they read in the movies you see together or read together or on trips. I mean, those are chances to have substantive contact with yourselves and your Children. So I would say don't miss those opportunities. Those are all building blocks or I think vital and fruitful. A mental process.
Laura: I think so too. I think too that it's so important for parents to remember that there is no way to raise a child who will not become an adult who has work to do. I think part of our, that is part of the journey of being alive. They like they're just, there's no parents out there who are just gonna put this perfectly formed adult who never has any worries or fears or anxieties that like it, that doesn't exist, that's not the reality of being human. So all of our kids are gonna go out into the world as adults and need to have conversations, need with themselves or with the, we all have work to do.
Kirk: Yes. Kids need to separate themselves from their parents. Part of the evolutionary process too.
Laura: And it's their life, like we can't take full responsibility for their life, right? Because it's theirs, they're born, they have, you know, just to circle back to the beginning. They come out into the world, these beings who have to grapple with their beingness and we can absolutely do as much as we can to support that. But then they are also themselves. Yeah. Oh, Kirk. I really appreciated this conversation today. You know, I know that you are, you have lots of books out there but I feel kind of, I want to make sure folks know, you know about, this book that we've been talking about more. And you can tell us the title and, you know, if there's a specific place you'd like them to go and find it or connect with you. I'd love to hear about it.
Kirk: Yes. Thank you. It's called Life– I clear my throat. I'm being very human here.
Laura: Yay for humanity!
Kirk: Yes. It's called Life-Enhancing Anxiety: Key to a Sane World. And it involves my own journey with anxiety and to a degree, life-enhancing anxiety as well as applications to society and psychotherapy generally and certainly has passages relevant to development and parenting as well. And it can be accessed at amazon.com. It's published by University professors Press, a terrific independent press in my view. And people can also visit my website which is kirkjschneider.com to find out more about the book as well as other books that I've done videos,
Laura: You have a youtube channel, right? But you're working with a graduate student.
Kirk: A youtube channel and I'm working on with a graduate assistant which is called The Core of Depth Healers and that's a corps like peace Corps.
Laura: Okay. Got it.
Kirk: It's an attempt to provide a resource especially for mental health professionals but others who are interested in translating principles of depth psychotherapy to social crises. We have examples of experts, you know, working across cultural and political divides and therapeutic principles to gun violence to dealing pandemic. There are many, many samples, video samples of therapists especially, you know, applying the usual individual therapeutic realm to the social.
Laura: That's really fascinating. Yeah, cool. Thank you so much, Kirk. I really, I've loved getting to know you and getting to chat with you today. Thanks for being here and sharing with us.
Kirk: I really appreciated meeting you too.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!