Episode 189: Tiny Traumas and How They Affect Daily Life and Parenting with Dr. Meg Arroll
/Welcome to another episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, where today we are talking about “tiny traumas” and how they affect daily life and parenting. We are joined by Dr. Meg Arroll, a psychologist and the author of the book called Tiny Traumas.
Here are some of the key takeaways:
Understanding Tiny T Trauma and how it affect daily life, especially parenting
Navigating parental impact and maladaptive consequences
Effective action steps to heal from past experiences and coping mechanisms
What is the ASK Process (Accurate, Sensible, and Kind) for healing
If you’re looking to connect with Dr. Meg Arroll and learn more about her work, visit her website drmegarroll.com, Facebook @drmegarroll, Instagram @drmegarroll, and Twitter @drmegarroll.
Resources:
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, I am going to be talking with a guest, Doctor Meg Arroll about tiny traumas. These are small, little traumas that can accumulate over the course of your life and really affect you, especially your parenting. So I'm excited for this conversation. I'm hoping it will be really help you bring out some insight and actually help you move forward in some of your own inner work. So Doctor Meg, thank you so much for being with us. Welcome to the show. Will you tell us a little bit more about yourself? You know who you are, what you do and then we'll dive in.
Dr. Meg: Laura, thank you so much for having me on your amazing podcast. I feel very honored Yes. So I'm a psychologist, British, but also American. So I started my life in the United States but trained in the UK. And my initial work was actually in long term health conditions because I focused on health psychology in the UK. And I specialize, so I like all those little nooks and crannies that perhaps people overlook people dismiss. So I was fascinated with what we termed at the time, medically unexplained conditions. So things like chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, and sometimes they're called functional disorders. And that's because there's still not really agreement over the etiology over the course. But what I was interested in as a psychologist was how people were affected by really struggling to gain a diagnosis. But also when they had a diagnosis, it kind of felt like a little bit anticlimactic as well because a diagnosis was just based on a collection of symptoms and the pathways for treatment were sort of unclear. So there were so many obstacles, so many obstacles for individuals.
And also I had some of these obstacles myself and my own health. And that sort of led me on a path to look at some of the types of experiences that profoundly affect us and they're not the big T. And when I say big T, I mean, capital T in the word trauma, they're not sort of the things that we all really recognize as trauma sort of living through a natural disaster or early childhood abuse, those sorts of things. But they are experiences that do deeply impact us. And some of those things can be going through a medical process like that and feeling very fobbed off, feeling ignored. Even, oftentimes being told that your physical symptoms are all in your head and of course, the mind and body interact. But I mean, just imagine going from doctor to doctor to doctor and just being told what your, what your feeling isn't real, it isn't real. So these sorts of things do impact the way we view the world and the way that we feel about ourselves. And it was actually later in my career when I was putting together a lecture on IBS and I stumbled upon a paper that it was one of those light bulb moments, Laura, you know, like in your research, you have them and you're like, wow, it all makes sense now.
Laura: It all makes sense, yeah.
Dr. Meg: And these ex. Yeah. And these experiences, they were terms small tea or little tea or tiny t trauma. And it is the psychological nicks and scrapes that we can accumulate over time that build up to cause us some presentations. And then later in my career, when I worked in private practice, I really noticed that the vast majority of my clients, they would come to me and say, look Dr. Meg like, I don't even know why I'm here. I don't know why I'm here. There's nothing that big that happened to me. I can't put my finger on it and you'd almost see clients edging out of the door, that kind of self dismissal going on.
Laura: Yes.
Dr. Meg: And so I'd coax them back, coax them back into my room and say, well, you know, let's, let's work on this and also a bit of psychoeducation there around the concepts of tiny t trauma and how this can impact us. And so yes, all these, it was weird because like all these strands in my sort of research, academic life in my sort of practice and therapeutic world and my own personal experience, they kind of accumulated. And I was like, this is just so important. I don't really hear people talking about it. Certainly not in the general public, but even within psychological circles, therapeutic circles, it's something that is under discussed under researched. And I was like, this is, this is really important.
Laura: Yeah, I love, I love that you're talking about this. So I, you know, as a, a parenting consultant, I, most of the parents that I work with say those exact same things. You know, I think about, you know, I asked them a lot about, you know, where they got ideas about parenting and child behavior, how their experiences influence what they're doing now, both positively and negatively and oftentimes they can't put their finger on things that were negative. There's nothing really big, they love their parents. Tthey are, you know, are, are really compassionate towards the, the people who raise them who did the best that they could, you know, just lots of dismissal of their own experiences and how hard they can be. Especially those, those little t traumas. So maybe it would be helpful for our listener to hear from you. What, what are tiny t traumas? You know. So if we know what the big ones are natural disasters, abuse that, you know, we can take a look at and say, yep, that's abuse versus the little ones. What are some of the little ones that especially the ones that affect parenting?
Dr. Meg: So one thing first, it's, it's quite important to separate out the intention from the impact we're talking about trauma because this is something that can feel very sort of conflicting. So, you know, with clients, with ourselves, we feel like we love our parents. We, we, we absolutely adore our parents and they did the best they could. And we can see as adults, we can see some of the challenges they had. And so there really is that conflict in the sense that I don't want to blame my parents for what I'm going through or how that's impacting my own parenting. But actually it is, and that causes quite a lot of distress actually that in itself and what I would say, then if we separate out the impacts from the intention So the intention was good. You know, people are always, always doing their best with the resources they have at the time without a doubt, the intention was good, but the impacts can still be detrimental. And that can help really just allow people to explore their own tiny t traumas a bit more because then we can say, you know, we put that aside, we can put that aside because it's not about blame. But then when we do explore a lot of these things do come out. And so with regard to parenting in particular, I'll give a few examples. So a lot of the research is based on what's called miss attunement between caregivers and children. So that is something like perhaps you have just very different personality types, you could have parents that are really extroverted and perhaps a child that naturally is a bit more introverted.
And of course, we know that both nature and nurture are important, but there's a misattunement there and you know, the amount of people that we work with, but also know, but perhaps even ourselves. So you just kind of feel like maybe I was the black sheep in my family and I just don't feel like I belonged. So again, no abuse in that sort of sense. And I would say, you know, no neglect but really misattunement, lack of communication, sometimes that comes with that misattunement and really not having that sense of belonging over the course of a lifetime because we're talking about day in day out that can lead people to be very unsure of themselves. And I would say the most common thing that I personally see is parental anxiety. So individuals who have experienced this type of tiny t trauma when they become parents themselves, they're just very, very, very anxious. And there, there's a real fear that they're not good enough and they don't know what the right thing is and of course, there's no one right thing. And also some quite illuminating examples, for instance, and again, bearing in mind to separate the intention from the impact. I had one client, who was very successful um both in her work and, and her family life, she, you know, really felt very aligned with her daughter. So there wasn't that sense in her parenting of the misattunement, but she was just so anxious and so scared of doing something wrong. And so we explored, we explored some of some of her own the care that she received and again, always starts off with, I love my parents, I love my parents. And it turns out that one of the types of experiences that had really shaped her was that when she was young, if she had a bad grade, her parents would pin up that report card in the kitchen and highlight it.
So she would see it every day at breakfast. And over time that really made her feel not good enough, just not, not good enough, not valuable, not, not worth a lot. And the intention was to motivate her to do well at school. But actually the impact and, and, and to be fair, actually, she did, it did motivate her to do very well at school. And she really, she aced, you know, all of her, her elementary and then secondary school and then went on to higher education. She was very successful as they say in her career. But this underlying fear was leading to not just burn out work, but a type of parental burnout too. So those sort of examples and there, there are many and there are myriad and that's another thing about tiny t trauma is that we all have our individual constellation of experiences. So it can be you what I find. And it's so interesting because it shows how compassionate we are as people, as human beings. Is that one? Again, one of the things that really sort of pops to the surface is we tend to say, well, you know, what other people have it worse than me. And you know, I wasn't, I wasn't abused and, you know, we did, we did have, you know, food on the table, perhaps my parents struggle, but we, we had everything we needed. And that's a type of sort of self dismissal again,, some self stigma and when we can sort of unravel that though, we can then see how some of these patterns are playing out and have become maladaptive.
Laura: I really resonate with what you're saying. I, I hear those exact words from so many of my clients. In fact, in my membership community, the group of us that were together for our weekly discussion, talked about this exactly yesterday, this kind of low, I mean, exactly this low level anxiety around am I good enough? Am I doing this? Right? It's one of the hallmarks for, I think the of the folks who are seeking out parenting support because they've got this underlying fear and it's within me too. So of, of, are we doing this? Right? Am I gonna mess up my, you know, it's a huge responsibility. We love these little humans so much. We don't want to repeat patterns that maybe have been handed down throughout the generations. We want to do something different. And in the midst of this, we're, we're nervous, we're anxious, we're worried that we're not enough that we don't already have within us all that we need. And so I guess my question is if a person who's listening is recognizing where they are in this, that okay, even though I love my parents, there are some things that, that had an impact on me that maybe wouldn't have impacted another person the same way, but they did have this negative impact on me. And now I'm, you know, I'm having those maladaptive consequences. What do we do next? What is the next step?
Dr. Meg: Yes, indeed. And one thing you said there was so important, the recognition that something that has impacted us may not impact another person in the same way. And so when we are discussing this to really hold judgment aside and judgment on ourselves too, and that's hard.
Laura: We’re so hard on ourselves,.
Dr. Meg: We're so hard on ourselves and we have that inner critic and it's such a really loud voice, but that shows there's something to work on. And so again, you know, starting where do we start from that point, we start where we are and that is that awareness. And so within all my work, I, I developed a, a process, a scaffolding as it were to help to help sort of give a roadmap to how, how to work with this and how to come out the other side. And it's called the AAA approach. And the first A is that awareness, the second is acceptance and the third is action because actually we do need to take positive steps into the future as well. So that first point, so having a group like that, like your group, having these conversations just heightening, increasing this awareness. That really is the first step. And what we can do is we can, we can look and think, you know what, what was an experience that molded me that impacted me. That really made me in a way who I am today. But actually, perhaps I didn't think it was serious enough. I had some of that self dismissal going on to be really honest with that recognition that perhaps something we've experienced didn't or wouldn't impact another person in the same way, but did impact us. So to take that self compassionate stance to it and really just do some introspection there. What did impact you in an important way perhaps made you view yourself in a different way, view the world in a different way.
And it can be something that happened over time. And that's why it's tricky in a way because we're not looking for that one big thing. There can be big things in dispersed. But really what was the pattern that started to impact you? And so having that sense of awareness, then we really do know where the starting point is and then that leads to that acceptance piece. And in parenting, it really is that peace around the intention was not bad, but the impact was, was still there and accepting our parents as human beings as we all are accepting ourselves as fallible human beings, which we are and doing some work on that and that, that can be challenging, that can be challenging because we do live in a world of toxic positivity. We really do. We live in this world that you know, we when we love someone. We, we, we mustn't, you know, critique them. But actually, we're doing this inner work for ourselves and we can see our parents as, as they were and sometimes that means having a conversation. And sometimes that's not possible but exploring the types of um stresses and impacts. There were on our parents to really give us to shine the light on the sorts of things that really led to our life course in that way. And some of them are these macro level types of pressures that our parents and we have. So when I was growing up, it was the 19 eighties best decade ever I have to say.
But, but it was this decade where women were told they can do it all so you can have the family, you can have the house, you can go to work, you can have a career and you know what not saying that's impossible with the right support. But it was, it's very, very, very challenging. And perhaps I think with my own upbringing, there wasn't that support for my mom actually. And there was just an expectation that you could do it all without that kind of support. So a lot of people grew up like me as latch key kids and perhaps we spoke quite a bit of time on our own as it were. And that led to some at the time coping mechanisms that were useful at the time. But later in life perhaps aren't as useful. So I do see a lot of clients who are perhaps hyper independent, perhaps find it very difficult asking for support. And when it comes to our own parenting, we know how important it is to ask for support, to have those pillars of support for ourselves and our families as a whole.
Laura: I think too, that just to add on a layer, I think for so many kids who were in a situation where they had to be so independent, they also had to suppress any needs that weren't getting met. Right? And as adults, I think we become very hard like that, it's very difficult to even recognize that we do have needs. So many parents that I work with can't even recognize what unmet needs might be hanging out under the surface for themselves. It's not just even like they don't even know what kind of support to ask for because they are so not in touch with, with what they really need, you know?
Dr. Meg: Absolutely. And it's knowing our needs is a skill like any other. And if we haven't been taught this skill but not just taught, if we haven't practiced this skill over time, how are we supposed to know, like, how, how are we supposed to know? And it can feel so alien, you know, and it can feel very uncomfortable and as human beings we don't like to feel uncomfortable and that's totally okay. That we don't like. It doesn't mean that it's not helpful in the long term to get in touch with some of those feelings and to really pick out what our needs are and to discover them. Because what we find then is we individuals will seek support when it just becomes unbearable when we are overwhelmed. And in terms of the work that we both do, it would be wonderful to have more preventative type interventions here so that people are not on their knees by the time they come to see a psychologist, a therapist or a coach, because by then there's just been so much distress, it's been so much distress and we can, we can kind of get in there a little bit earlier as it was. So I tend to see. Yeah.
Laura: Well, I was just gonna say it's like when you have a light, come on in your car, you go and get it, checked the lights, checked out, you know, whatever the indicator is telling you before you're broken down on the side of the road. Right? But we, and we know that for our body, but we don't always know that for our hearts and our minds and our relationships. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. I interrupted.
Dr. Meg: And, and no, indeed. And I think because psychology is actually a really young discipline, it hasn't been around for very long. We are still discovering so many things. We are still developing so many ways. To help people and help ourselves really. But to recognize that we are doing quite a lot of, of catching up and that in a lot of healthcare models, we don't really attend to emotions and to psychology, to our minds and to our hearts, as you say, nearly as much, even though we know that the mind and body interact and that we are just one system. So without a doubt. But yeah, absolutely. What you know, and this goes back, actually, this is really interesting because this goes back to that point of perhaps not knowing our needs and also not knowing our indicators. So, again, on a car, you'll see when the fuel, when your gas is running low, but if we've never really had the experience of knowing what our needs are and how to judge that, how would we know? And so one thing we can do is we can set our own dashboards and we can look, we can look at our behaviors, we can look at our thoughts, we can look at our emotions and we can actually do a little bit of investigation here on each of these dashboards.
What are the indicators when my tank is running low? Is it that I become really irritable because I'll tell you what that's really common. And we, you know, fly off the handle and then feel an immense amount of guilt at it. Is that an indicator? Is it, you know, a physical symptom that, you know, I work with a lot of clients that will have sort of immune type reactions. So perhaps they have, you know, a skin condition that will flare up and that's a really obvious one. But things like sleep disruption again is your sleep out of whack, which is hard when you're a parent because your sleep is always out of whack. So, but there are indicators and again, they're individual for each person. But in saying that what tends to happen is that it will get to a point that if we don't stop and really look at the indicators, our bodies will stop us.
Laura: And I think that most listeners have heard about burnout is that kind of where you're going?
Dr. Meg: Yes. That is a common presentation that, that I do see. Yes.
Laura: And so what I guess so we've been talking, we've talked about awareness and acceptance. I feel very curious, especially as we approach the conversation of burnout that lots of people are experiencing, especially as we as a world recover from a very difficult four years. What are some action steps that can heal some of those past experiences that we've had and the coping mechanisms that maybe started out good and are now not so much serving us. What can we do to start healing from some of those things?
Dr. Meg: So I think that there, there's this saying isn't there about putting on your oxygen mask first. And there's a lot of debate about it because it is parents that feels so alien alien to put on your oxygen mask first. And I would say just remember to put it on. It doesn't have to be first because actually you're going to take care of your kids first. I know that I know that just make sure that you're thinking about it to put it on. And what does that mean? That means some basics and we tend to use the word self care, but I would use the word self maintenance because self care often, like it just makes us feel ick. It's a little bit of an ick. So what are the basics of self maintenance? And it is the sorts of things to get out into nature is so important if possible with family, with family to challenge that inner critic psychologically is a really, really important one. So that sense of not being good enough to really challenge some of those thoughts. So I use a process that's based on CBT on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, but it's a bit, I think it's just a bit a bit more gentle. So it's called the ASK process.
So say we're having a thought like I'm rubbish, I'm rubbish. I can't do this. I'm I'm absolutely rubbish. So the A is, is that accurate? Is that really accurate? Where is the evidence that you're rubbish? Where's the evidence that you can't do this? Because you are, you are doing it. So to go through these three letters and then the the S is sensible. Is it logical? Does this thought logically in your life make sense? And then to challenge it in a third way with the K, is it kind, are you actually being kind for yourself? And once we start to challenge some of these maladaptive thought patterns, it takes away a layer of pressure, a layer of worry because along with burnout and these two things feed into each other. It is the anxiety, the parenting anxiety, if not a whole level of high function anxiety that really goes on. Yeah. Yeah. And that plays along throughout the day.
Laura: I really, I really love that layer of kindness that K in your ASK acronym. So it's what is the A?
Dr. Meg: Is it accurate?
Laura: Accurate, sensible and kind. Accurate, sensible and kind. I really like that. Okay, so listeners write that down what a lovely way to check in with yourself, I think, you know, so CBT um cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the most heavily researched approaches to kind of changing thought patterns and behaviors and improving well being. But I always feel whenever I'm doing it with a client or teaching it that it's lacking in compassion and self compassion, I think adding that layer of self compassion because the research is prolific on the benefit of self compassion too. I, so I'm really, I, I mean, Doctor Meg, I really love that edition of kindness. Is it kind? Oh, you know, I think we are so strong with our kids on the importance of kindness and yet we're so unkind to ourselves. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.
Dr. Meg: No, I mean, I, I work within a framework of compassion focused therapeutic techniques without a doubt because it is, it is the, the, the biggest thing, the biggest thing that I see in a day to day basis. And I've also seen it in myself and we are terribly, terribly unkind to ourselves. And it can be interesting to, to see sort of perhaps some of the avenues that, that have led to that. And some of them are, are there are these more macro level, socio cultural things for instance, like social media. So there's so much parenting, perfectionism on socials.
Laura: Oh my gosh, Dr. Meg, I, I have been off of Instagram for almost a year now where I've really not been posting.
Dr. Meg: Congratulations.
Laura: Yes. And, and it really has come down to not wanting to participate anymore in a system that creates more anxiety than the problems that it solves. I think that like, well, you just hit on a, a very like a part, a thing that I'm so passionate about. But I think that, you know, those the 13 2nd sound bite, things that seem so easy, make it seem like you're doing everything, you know, they, they have the potential, certainly no intent, right? But the impact can be huge, making us feel like we're failing, making us feel like, you know, if it was as simple as saying a script that you learned on Instagram and then you can't even do it. What does that do to yourself? Right? Because it's not necessarily teaching you all of the deep inner work that needs to happen so that you can, can say the words that, you know, you're supposed to say. Most of the parents I work with know the words they're supposed to say and can't actually in the moment get them out because they're so dysregulated. And that's the word, right? That's where the work is, is on yourself. Not necessarily the words that are coming out of your mouth, you know?
Dr. Meg: Absolutely. And that in terms of the AAA process, those action points, we, because we want to, we want everything to be good and we want, you know, we want our kids to be happy, we want our families to be happy and, you know, it comes from a really good place and some, some of the techniques online, we're not, we're not saying that they are per say bad. But actually this is a long term game and it takes, it takes more than 10 seconds, you know, it really does and it is effortful. It's not easy, it's effortful, but it's worth it. And it's having the willingness to accept that and there is in parenting that willingness. But when everyone else seems to be able to do it in 10 seconds and why can't I feed into that?
Laura: Exactly.
Dr. Meg: Not good enough mindset. And to, again, just have the awareness which we all know, we all know that Instagram is filtered in all these different ways and everything. We all talk about the algorithm. But the algorithm really is important because it does trigger that fear response in us. It triggers that oh no, no, you you're not good enough, you're not doing it right actually. And so it becomes addictive, it becomes a type of behavioral addiction that we get drawn into. And that level, that level of pressure there is something that we actually can control though because we can't control everything in life. But there are some controllable. What is our circle of influence? So Laura for you to, you know, say no to Instagram for a year brilliant and to really control the social media consumption and it is a personal choice. So we can choose to say, well, you know what I'm going to treat it like fast food maybe and you know, have a little bit to know that it can be detrimental, but that's my choice. Yes. But to really have that awareness and be mindful that the way that these types of media work, it is to trigger a fear response and that is what it's doing. But some of, you know, some action points and we always want to move to action. But that can be problematic because as you say, without doing that deeper work. And so in my, in my model, it is the awareness and acceptance work. When we go straight into action, it's like putting a band aid on like a stab wound.
You know, it's just like it may stem it a little bit for a minute. But then we're gonna start seeing the problems and that process in itself of, well, I put the band aid on and it's not working, again it's me. I'm not good enough. I, I can't even do it. So these sorts of things. So the action is there to moderate social media consumption and, and also news consumption a lot of time for parents because, you know, it really became such a big thing during the pandemic, that type of vicarious trauma. And that is a type of tiny t trauma and we can still bear witness to what's happened in the world without being constantly drawn into it in the sense that it is triggering that fear response again and again and again, because when we get into that chronic stress day, we are so hypervigilant. So then when we come to parenting, we are hypervigilant with our children then as well and we perhaps don't let them explore. And there's that term and I'm, I'm a bit sort of I think labeling, we, we know about labeling theory. And so we just use it for discussion, but that type of helicopter parenting, it's not surprising that people became so hypervigilant with their families because we were triggered in this way to constantly be in fear. Again having that awareness to br to draw ourselves back. And also to, to know that, you know, there, there wasn't one right way to parent, there isn't.
Laura: There isn't.
Dr. Meg: Because we're all different and our kids are all different and we as individuals are all different. So anything that says like this is like the, the exact one way, one size fits all, it's not realistic.
Laura: It's not realistic, it's not. Yes, 100% and learn. Like I think, you know what I, what I try my best to teach is to teach parents how to know themselves and how to know their kids and how to adjust based on the type of relationship that they want to have. And so that you're right, there's no one size fits all and there isn't for this healing process either. Right? It's about being very curious with yourself and what's happened to you and, and moving with slowness and with care and kindness.
Dr. Meg: Absolutely. And that curiosity piece is so important and I call it be more cat. So, you know, be, be fiercely curious, fiercely curious about yourself about yourself. And again, you know, we are compassionate to others and we're so curious about others and we're always looking for the kindest way to understand others. But we don't do that so, so much with ourselves in that way. So, yes. And and I do think that it can feel confusing because even ourselves with our siblings, it's like they can have a completely different experience of growing up than we did. I mean, completely different. And I do see so many clients to say that. Yeah, but my, my sister doesn't feel this way so I shouldn't feel this way. But that acceptance around that is a completely different dynamic. Your sister is different. We're all different and your parents are different and actually you with your kids, it is gonna be a different dynamic there. So to be very what we would call person or child centered in that way and to use that information to develop, develop that relationship with that individual child. And I just love your work so much that it's all about this core of love, but with boundaries and that is so important.
Laura: Oh, I appreciate that so much. I, I think, you know, this is something that we all have to do together and I'm so glad to have my listeners have the opportunity to meet their teachers through my podcast. You know, I think our teachers come into our lives at just the right moment. And I have a feeling lots of folks who are listening are going to want to be learning from you on how to do some of this work, whether it's with themselves or with a therapist. How can they find you, how can they learn more? You have a beautiful book that's out.
Dr. Meg: Yeah. So, my book Tiny Traumas. It is out in the US, but also around the world. So it is in 33 different languages. So, if English is your second language, then, then you, you might be able to find it in your primary language too. So all the usual, all the usual sort of booksellers, Amazon, bookshops as well, physical bookshops. My website is drmegarroll.com and last name is Arroll because it is a very unusual name. And take in mind what we said about socials with, with that pinch of salt can find me on socials @drmegarroll as well.
Laura: Well, Doctor Meg, I so appreciate your time and your wisdom and your kindness and your support for, for parents and, and actually, honestly, just all, all humans who are doing this work, I hope that we are able to kind of as a team as a, a global human community, do some, some good healing work for ourselves so that, I don't know, maybe our kids don't have quite as much work to do. They'll still have their work as it's theirs, you know. But yeah, thank you. I appreciate you.
Dr. Meg: Thank you so much for your time and thank you. To your listeners for, for sharing this with us also.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!