Episode 143: Fed Up: How to Balance Emotional Labor in Your Relationship with Gemma Hartley
/Over the past year my husband and I have been on a journey in figuring out how to be more balanced in our roles at home. We noticed that my husband did a lot of the visible labor, like dishes & laundry, while I did most of the invisible work, like holding emotional space for my kids' big feelings, carefully considering the play and reading materials in our home, and planing meals. A part of our work this year has focused on both of us fully recognizing and acknowledging all of the invisible, emotional, and mental labor that I do every day. I have to tell you, I've never felt more seen and heard in our family, but getting here wasn't always easy.
A big part of what we need to grow s a couple is an opportunity to learn from teachers who aren't me, so that I can learn alongside my partner, rather than be the one teaching him. It evens the playing field a bit and allows for more vulnerability. Part of that is reading books together and discussing them weekly, like a couple's book club. And one of the books we read was Fed Up: Emotional Labor, Women and the Way Forward by Gemma Hartley and I was thrilled to get the chance to interview her for the podcast this week! Gemma is a freelance journalist, speaker, and author who has spoken on the topic of emotional labor around the world, from corporate conferences to festivals at the Sydney Opera House. She is passionate about creating a more equitable world in which invisible labor is valued and supported by both personal partners and public policy alike.
Here's an overview of our conversation:
What makes up emotional labor? (noticing, planning, delegating, overseeing completion)
Why is there such a disparity between men and women when it comes to who takes on emotional labor/the mental load in a relationship?
How do you reach a compromise when it comes to standards of how things get done?
I'd love to hear from you on this topic! Do you and your partner have balanced roles? Is emotional labor & mental load something you're actively discussing together? Let me know!
If you want to know more about how to balance your emotional labor with your partner, visit www.gemmahartley.com and follow Gemma on IG @gemmalhartley.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we're gonna be talking about emotional labor, the mental load and how to actually create lasting change in your relationship with your partner. And to help me with this conversation is an amazing author and journalist, author of Fed Up which is a great book that really highlights how important the work we do as mothers is, how it keeps the world turning. So welcome to the show Gemma Hartley. I'm so excited to have you here Gemma. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and then we'll dive right into this important topic.
Gemma: Yeah. So I mean, you kind of covered it. I'm a journalist and freelance writer. I am the author of Fed Up. I live in Reno Nevada with my three kids who were much younger when I wrote the book. They’re now at like six, eight and eleven. They were in like that two, four, six stage when I wrote the book, which was…
Laura: Heavy.
Gemma: A lot to handle. They’re much easier now.
Laura: I think it's so important to talk about this. So I have a nine and a six year old, almost seven-year old and I so agree those early years. So listeners, if you're in those early years just know you're not crazy. It actually is harder. The physical aspect of it, the physical labor is so much more when they're still little and they're asking you to carry them and it's harder. What is that… What is it about it that's so much harder?
Gemma: Like literally everything. No, seriously, I, you know, I wrote a piece about this recently about how we need to stop like telling moms of smaller kids that like, oh, it doesn't, you know, get easier. It just gets different. Like, no, that is not true. It gets so much easier. Like really does because you know, I think there's this misconception that when they're younger, it's more physically demanding but then it becomes more emotionally demanding as they get older. But I don't think that's true. They have a really big emotions that they can't regulate when they're really little. They get better at regulation skills as they get older. I mean yeah, it kind of goes haywire as they enter that like preteen years because I'm starting to deal with that now, but still they have that like basic knowledge of how to self regulate if you've been working on that with them and little kids don't have that. So it's emotionally taxing on you when they're little as well as really physically taxing.
Laura: Yeah, I so agree. And I, you know the type of parenting that I support on our podcast is more work intensive, more emotionally intensive, more mental and emotional labor intensive in the younger years because you're building this rock solid foundation of a social and emotional skills for the kiddos and a relationship that is flexible and resilient and kind of can handle those ups and downs and so parenting young kids and the kind of the respectful parenting conscious parenting world is a lot harder. But man, if you're laying that foundation and it sounds like you've had that experience too. If you're laying that foundation as they get older, it's a lot easier and a lot more fun. I mean there's still challenges, right? There's still parts that are hard but it's not as full on. Right?
Gemma: Yeah, I think that's very true. Like when you're putting in that groundwork, when they're little, like you are putting in a lot and not knowing if it's gonna be easier when they get older. It will be, you know, I really expected to get into these preteen years and really just be hating life to be honest. Because that was the experience that my parents had, you know, conscious parenting was not a thing when I was little. And so I didn't learn any regulation skills. I was just kind of like big emotions bouncing off the walls when I came into those years and my kids have a lot better like self regulation skills and we have a more trusting like bonded relationship and that makes such a difference in how much you can enjoy parenting in those like later years.
Laura: Absolutely. But it's a lot of work. This type of parenting is intensive at times and you know, so what we're talking about today is this emotional labor, the mental load of parenting, which is heavy anyway. And then we add this additional layer of attempting to be respectful conscious parents. It's a lot and a lot of that goes unseen and that's something that, that your work, your original article and in the book that kind of came after has really brought to light and we've been given some language to talk about it. Do you want to dive in there a little bit for us?
Gemma: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I think that's very true that when we're doing conscious parenting, it adds a whole extra layer here. But what I talk about in my book is like the mental load isn't just like all the to do lists that you keep in your head. I don't have this in the book, which is really frustrating because I've I've thought a lot about it since writing the book, but there's really this framework that I like to think about it as you know, you're noticing the problem, the thing that needs to be done, whether that is like a physical labor task, like the floors need to be vacuumed. Or it's something like, oh, I need to pay attention to this part of the parenting relationship with my child. Then you have the planning stage, which is, you know, how you're going to go about this, what's the best option? You then have to either do that work yourself or delegate or if you're going to, you know, for parenting, I think really it's like you're working with your partner, you have to be on the same page as much as possible when you're doing conscious parenting. So you're relaying that information, you're delegating out what needs to be done. And then a lot of the times were overseeing that work because we are taught that it's our responsibility and that if we take it off of our plate, it's not going to get done. And so even the tasks both physical and not physical that we delegate out, it never fully leaves because we feel responsible for every little thing that we do in our lives.
Laura: So it's much and it's not just that we feel responsible for it. I think even now we still are responsible out in the world. If you know, if folks come into our house and it's not perfectly tidy, our husbands don't get looked at, we get looked at, you know what I mean? Like it and so there's this extra weight of it all to that because society has told us that even if we want to kind of shrug that stuff off and not be responsible for it and put it into someone else's hands, the rest of the world hasn't caught up to that yet. You know what I mean?
Gemma: Yeah, there's a really strong cultural expectation that anything that goes on within the family, anything that goes on within the home is completely up to, you know, moms and so you know, if there is a, if you're out and you see a family and a child is misbehaving, no one's looking at the dad to be like, oh he should really do something about that. It's always, always the mother. And me and my husband have had some interesting conversations about this, like he, you know, when he goes out with all three kids, he's a hero. Like people will pat him on the back as our youngest is having like, you know, a back arching tantrum. Whereas if that's me, it's like just side eye and look, you know, we don't, we don't have that same expectation for men and women, which is a real problem, especially when we start trying to undo these expectations within our own relationships and find that point of balance where we're both working together in order to balance out the emotional labor and mental load.
Laura: Yeah. Okay. So I know that a lot of the folks who are listening to this right now, know exactly what we're talking about, right. They know exactly what we're talking about. They feel it they experience in their own lives and yet they likely got partners who are more engaged than the average partner who are, you know, great dads, great husbands and at the same time there's still the same imbalance. I've got one of those husbands, I got one of those great men, you know who right from the very beginning was up for every night waking when my babies were infants and would change the diaper and then bring the baby in bed to me to nurse every single time while they were infants. You know, just really like a good modern dad. And yet these imbalances are still, they're still present in our lives.
And in order to get to a place where we were gonna change something, I had to get to a place where I was fed up and that's why I love the the topic of your book so much is because I know so many people have to get to that kind of a breaking point where they're at this intense moment of, it has to change and that's when change starts to happen. And I'm kind of curious about like, can change happen without getting to that fed up point? Can… And once we're, you know, that's an energy that's hard to hold and hard to keep and maintain for a long time. What happens when we're past that energy and things start to slip again? Can we talk about the change process? Like how do we actually change these dynamics in the home?
Gemma: Yeah, so I think that honestly getting maybe not to a breaking point, but to a point where we recognize like there is anger, there is discomfort. I think that's necessary in the process of change. I don't think anyone is like super comfortable and then decides that they need to change. There has to be a level of discomfort. There has to be, you know, sometimes the level of anger and frustration in order for us to make meaningful change in our lives. I think that's true, no matter what we're talking about. The problem is like once that initial like fire is over. You have to have a framework that allows you to continue with the changes that you've made. And this has been a really hard one.
And I had a really hard time when I was writing my book because I would notice like we'd make some progress and then it would back slip. And what most women, you know, tend to ask me for when they reach out is like, well what is that? You know, one conversation we can have that will change everything forever and fix it. And I'm like, oh, there's no one magic conversation. There's no like perfect words that are going to fix this on the first try. You know, I've been doing this with my husband for the past like five years since I wrote that original article and it's still a constant conversation. So I think one of the big things is like we have to learn how to communicate really well.
And I also think that one of the things we really need is for our partners to be committed to the change as much as we are. And that's the thing that I often don't see. Because usually, you know, if you've got that guy that is better than most men, he feels pretty comfortable because society is going to say like you're doing a great job compared to most of the other guys out there. Like kudos to you, they're getting all of these gold stars from everyone else. And so it's easy to back slip and to say, well I'm doing enough, I'm doing so much more than your friend's husband than my dad used to do than your dad used to do.
And that, you know, that commitment to change is what really makes things different and it, you know, it's frustrating because we have society set up for inequality like that, that is just the foundation of how we have set up, you know, power and comfort in this country. It's made to cater to men. And so it's really hard for them to maintain that commitment. I think. You know, I would guess that most of the people out there listening are women looking for the solution to take and to do the emotional labor, to figure out how to have this conversation, how to talk to them about it, how to implement that change. We need that level of commitment from our partners.
Laura: I so agree that's one of the reasons why I made my husband read your book. So and he really, we had kind of book club and I do that sometimes where we have like partner Book Club and we did that with yours and we love the audible version for folks who are looking for a book to get. So we both got the audible version of the book and I also got a paper version because I like to make notes and highlight things because I'm nerdy that way. But it was really good to do together and by having a structure and something that we were doing together in a kind of a thing to be able to have us have those conversations was really helpful for us. Something else has been helpful and I don't know if this was helpful in your world. Was us being on the lookout for my invisible labor for my, especially my emotional labor as a therapist by training.
I do a lot of the kind of the space holding and not just the mental load pieces. I do those things too, but the, you know, having one kid who's got a lot of big feelings, I spend a lot of time and energy and mental and emotional energy figuring out how to navigate those things and starting to speak to it. Just noticing it more has been really helpful for me and my husband having him be on the lookout for ways he for just noticing when I'm doing those things has been helpful too. As an example, we were noticing that he does all of the lunch is the lunch packing for our kids and that every morning he gets up and he packed the lunches. And I was feeling a little guilty about that because I don't do any of the lunch packing, you know, and it seems like that's something I'm supposed to be doing and all of those good old thoughts rolling through the head.
But we also, when we sat down to really look at it, we noticed that he was just packing the lunch based off the menu that I had set that I had spent hours crafting with are pretty picky kid who has sensory issues that I spend lots of time changing and shifting for balancing their nutritional needs, balancing taste and preferences and that he really just looks at the chalkboard and packs what's on the chalkboard. And like recognizing the hours and the time that I put in to make a menu that works on an ongoing basis for my kids. Give me a lot of permission to just sit and enjoy my coffee every morning while he made the packed lunches. Do you know, like, so is there room for that? Is that something that you've found yourself being able to look for and be on the lookout for? I don't know.
Gemma: Yeah, absolutely. A big part of us figuring out where all of like, because at first it was kind of this, you know, resentment that I couldn't quite put into words and so I was like, you know what, like I don't want you to feel like attacked when I do this, but I'm gonna start pointing things out. And so we can like kind of make the invisible visible and then work from there because that's the really tricky part about this is so much of it is invisible and it, you know, it is that way by design. Like it's really easy to turn a blind eye to something that you can't see going on because so much of this is mental and emotional work.
And so you know, pointing those things out and also like I think it's really good that you said your husband was the one like on notice like he was the one that was tasked with noticing a lot of these things. And I think that's the really important part because it's adding a lot of labor for us. If we're like okay now on top of already doing that work, I'm going to like, you know, because it becomes very automatic for us and so pointing it all out is another layer of work uh you know, not necessarily something that we don't want to do in the beginning just so we can really recognize it, but also we shouldn't be the only ones doing that work.
You know, I think it's really important for my husband to, you know, really open his eyes and take a look at the way that our life works. How does it work the way it does? It's because of all of this invisible labor and how do I take on some of that invisible labor to even it out to make sure that there isn't this huge imbalance. And I'm not saying that that's easy work to do. It's really not, you know, we've been conditioned our whole lives to do it. I'm not saying that this is, you know, simple work for men to do. It's really not, but it's work that has to be done. And so I think it's worthwhile for them to start recognizing them to start learning.
Laura: I think it is something that my husband and I have been talking about a lot and that you touch on at various points in your book is how this is good for them too. That by being cut off from certain aspects of life, they're not living a full life. They miss out on being full participants in their lives at a certain level. I really appreciate it Gemma that you included that because it's I think it's easy when having these conversation to slip into, like, we're just like, we don't… I love men, I love men, I love my husband, I think he's wonderful. And it's easy to feel like we're just attacking men or masculinity in general, and I don't, I don't feel that way at all. And I appreciated that your book didn't come off that way to me too. And there's a difference between attacking men and holding men accountable. All you know, all men and you were you walk that line very, very well in your book.
Gemma: Thank you. Yeah, I think that that's a really good distinction, like, there's a very big difference between accountability and just like, you know, misandry, like, we just hate men. So, you know, and I think that a lot of the reason I do this isn't just because like, yes, there is an imbalance here, and like, women need to have a lot of this taken off their plate so that, you know, we can be fully functioning as well. But you know, like, as I was saying earlier, like, yeah, our society is set up for men's power and comfort.
Power and comfort is not full humanity. Like those are two different things. You can have power and comfort and still have a lot of your full humanity denied to you. And we do that to men a lot in this society. You know, we tell them that they can't feel deeply, they can't be in this deep loving relationship with their children where they're engaged conscious parents like that. That's supposedly weak for men not to be the disciplinarian, to not separate themselves from their children in that role. And so, you know, to unlearn those things and to come more fully into your life by like noticing the little details and being involved and responsible for those things. It's really magical.
And I you know, getting to witness that firsthand as, you know, my husband sort of went through this process of taking on more responsibility within our home. Taking on deeper relationships, you know, with his children. Like it was just awe inspiring to see like the change that made in his life because before it was like, well, you know, my identity is wrapped up in work and being a provider and you know, those traditional masculinity roles that he didn't realize he had taken on so strongly until he had to dismantle them. And it really makes a huge difference in like, how you experience life and how you experience their relationship with each other. Like, when you fully see one another and see all of the work that you're doing together, it makes a huge difference.
Laura: It really does. You move from being someone who's just living a life together to being a full witness to each other's lives.
Gemma: Yeah. And I think that was a shift I didn't expect. You know, when he started taking on some of that invisible labor I felt seen in a way that I didn't know I needed. Like I could not recognize that before, like how much I needed, you know, my full life to be seen, which seems, you know, odd to say now, but you know, I have been conditioned to think like, well, this part is, you know, my lot in life and you know, it's just like, you know, my friends will see it, my mom will see it like, but having my partner see it, it made a huge difference in the level of intimacy that we have.
Laura: Yeah, I love that, you know, so that brings us to what we were talking about before we started recording. I think that there was this at the beginning of the, you know, this it's been a rough two years. And the research is overwhelmingly showing that women have been more negatively impacted our moms, especially by what's been happening these past two years, our careers, our mental health, everything. But I think that there was some hope at the beginning. I remember articles at the beginning of the pandemic when the shutdown was happening, that no one would ever ask a stay at home mom, what do you do all day again? Because now we're able to see it because now everybody's at home and seeing what they do all day. And there was this, like, really hopeful vibe that was happening. And I'm kind of curious, you know, this is your your field of expertise. Are you still seeing that vibe? How has the kind of, the pandemic shifted the way you view this topic and how do we need to address it?
Gemma: Yeah, so it was really interesting when I was writing my book, you know, I thought, oh, this, you know, I've had this really privileged experience of having my husband be laid off at the same time that I got a book deal, so that we were financially secure and able to make these changes at home together. And I was like, oh, but you know, how many people are going to ever get that chance where both people are in the house and like working this out and then I was like, oh the pandemic, like here's a small silver lining to this awful thing that's going on in the world. Everyone's at home together, everyone's seeing all the work that's being done, maybe things will change. I thought for sure that was going to be what happened. I was very hopeful at the beginning. That does not seem to have been the case, which is really frustrating because I thought, you know, given the time and space that we had that these changes would be made and so it's really frustrating to see that we didn't seize that opportunity in so many ways to change the way things were.
Laura: Why do you think that is?
Gemma: You know, I think we just did not shift the cultural expectations on women, we just kinda added to them. And there's, you know, that sort of image of the supermom that can like do everything and keeps everything running smoothly and well, you know, here's a pandemic, let's add that to our plate and see how it goes. And the thing is like, women are so conditioned that we were like, okay, yeah, no one else is going to do this work, let's just do it, at the cost of our mental health, at the cost of our careers. I mean, it's been really sad to watch what women have done to themselves rather than demand that accountability of their partners.
Laura: Okay. So I feel like that was a little bleak and I but it's true and and you know, there's this part of it that is, you know, there's this, you know what women have done to themselves. And there's this part of like, of we are at a certain level at some points letting it happen. And of course there's privileged and positions where certain people hold privilege, where they can push for change within their partnerships and there are families who don't have that level of privilege or access to be working on those things. I think you're so right that there are things that we do that keep ourselves in these positions. You know, not advocating for ourselves. Micromanaging, maternal gatekeeping is a phrase we've talked about on the podcast before. So we're recognizing this now.
So let's think about like the average person listening to this who is recognizing like, yes, I have been more negatively impacted by this pandemic when schools shut down or their kids are home for a quarantine. I'm the one who has to take off the days of work or I'm the one who's got to figure out how to feed them all while they're home. I was the one who was making up homeschool schedules, you know, they are noticing this, you know, this extra level, and you know, if we are talking about mental load just even like the like how many masks do we have in the house for the kids and which ones does this kid like versus which one does this kid like? and do I need to place that amazon order, you know like all it's just it's a lot you know to be having all at one time. So where… If this is the moment where people are recognizing, okay, so yes, I've been negatively impacted and maybe even more. So what do we do? Like what's the next step?
Gemma: So I mean, I think the first step is always opening up that door of communication with your partner and I think it's important to note that like the reason that you know we aren't really doing this to ourselves just because we're conditioned to I think a lot of it has to do with the fear of going to your partner and telling them all of these things and then having like that's a vulnerable moment to say like this is my life that you have not been recognizing up to this point and to have your partner not recognize it still like there is a certain level of comfort in being like, okay, well I can do all of this on my own and he just doesn't see it and I'll just never bring it up like you can keep that fantasy in your head that like well you know, if I did decide to change things, things would change.
The scary thing is for a lot of women that doesn't happen, you bring that up with your partner and you're still not seen your work is still not recognized? I've heard from women who have partners who have said, you know, I don't even believe that the mental load thing is real. How hard is it to ask for, you know, so I want to do something and so I think that's a very real fear that holds us back from having these conversations and from having them, you know, at the level that we need, because I think we kind of cushion our needs. Like when we, when we bring them, we're like, oh, well, I don't want to ask for too much because what if I don't get anything at all? It's, you know, it's really scary, but I do think that we need to have these conversations and then deal with the reality of the situation. Whether you have a partner that is willing to be in it with you or not, you need to know.
Laura: So that's one of like, that's definitely one of my questions. If you have that moment where you, you know, you say this is where I stand and you're at that place of I can't keep going like this, something has to change. What, how do you, what do you do if your partner is not there yet and you love them and you, but you can't change them because they're a person there themselves, you know, and what do you do? You have to figure out where, where your line is, right? Where your boundary ultimately is?
Gemma: Yeah. And that's something that I can't decide for you, you know, that's the thing. Like those boundaries you have, like, and and this is something maybe to think about before you have that conversation, like, given the potential outcomes, like, what are my boundaries gonna be after this? Like, what is the best case scenario? What is worst case scenario? And, you know, sometimes it means that your relationship might not make it, which is like, the scariest one, you know? I know for so many women like that, that is so frightening that it feels better to work yourself to death with emotional labor than to, you know, broach that topic and find out that you're alone. Like, it's better to make the choice to do it all yourself than to not be given that choice. That's really a difficult thing to face. You know, not everyone is going to make that choice to leave a relationship in that scenario. I think you have to get really clear on what your boundaries are and on how far you're going to push yourself. You know, I have a really hard time saying like, it's the right choice to stay in a relationship where you're not supported and not heard.
Laura: Yeah, and I think like, this is the other piece of this, that is that we, like, we get to choose what conversations we have. We get to choose how we want to handle these things and it's okay. I think for, you know, this conversation was really important for me to have with my husband, but I had a lot of security going into that conversation because we got married while I was in grad school to be a marriage and family therapist. And when we got married, we had an agreement that we would always fight for our marriage and we would do anything it took to fight for it. And so I like going into my marriage. I knew that he would if I asked him to go to couples therapy, he would. And that if he asked me, I would, we had that security at our backs the whole time and it makes it feel really safe to bring things like this up and not everybody has that. And you can also recognize, I think, too, that these things, that there are these imbalances and feel fine with them or feel not ready to broach it or not ready to do anything about it. I just want to sit with it for a little while and see or you know, just continue to get that validation and feel seen from your girlfriends or your mom or your mother in law. Like it, it's okay. You know, I guess nobody, we don't have to do anything right? Gemma I feel like some people need a little permission to do nothing, but it doesn't make them bad women.
Gemma: No, it doesn't, it doesn't make you a bad person to not bring this up before you're ready. I think, I think everyone hopefully does come to that point of reckoning where they, you know, they decide what their boundaries are going to be and how they're going to approach this with their partner. But that doesn't mean you have to like, listen to this podcast and go, you know, right now to your partner and be like, all right, we're gonna have a sit down conversation about this. And if it doesn't go well, I'm leaving the marriage like, that is not, that is not what we're recommending that we're going for here. You know, and I think there is a lot to be said or sitting with this. Because if you're just starting to recognize this for yourself like sitting with it and getting clear on how you feel about it and maybe envisioning what you would like your life to look like being aware of the imbalance of emotional labor that you have, like what would it look like ideally for you, to have a level of balance?
Which doesn't mean a 50-50 split. But something that works for you. Something that gives you the amount of mental space and like having your emotional needs met. What does that look like because sometimes we'll go into these conversations being like something needs to change and we don't have a clear idea of what we want that change to look like. And I think that's a really important first step to have. So you know, take some time and sit with that. Before you have this conversation so that you can go into it, not just with this like amorphous blob of resentment, but like a vision of what you would like your partnership to look like, how you want to create those shared standards with your partner. Because I think, you know, change doesn't come just from you being angry and frustrated. It comes from you having like hope and vision for a better partnership and better life together.
Laura: Change doesn't just come from you being angry and frustrated. It comes from having hope. I like that quote a lot, Gemma, thank you for that is good. I think that's a good place to wrap up. I think that that's something that is important. And I think it it really speaks to this idea that like that we have a lot of we have a lot of power within ourselves and we get to decide what's right for us and I agree that going in with some clear ideas and I think that that's really hard, I think it's really hard to come up with what do we want this to look like when we are reimagining partnerships when we're reimagining the way we get to be moms, you know, in this space, like in this world, in this culture. I think that there's probably room for inviting your partner into doing some of that reimagining to, and getting to a space where you can co create something new.
Gemma: Yeah, absolutely.
Laura: Yeah. I just, you know, we've been singing Encanto a lot at home today and I was just thinking about that. What else can I do? Song that just popped into my head, you know where she says we just made something unexpected. But it's beautiful and it's all mine. We can do that in our marriages. Right?
Gemma: We can.
Laura: Yeah. Alright, well thank you so much Gemma. Where can people find the work that you have going on? I know that you're, you're consistently writing new articles and new pieces. Where can people follow you?
Gemma: I think the easiest place to follow me is on Facebook at Gemma Hartley author, otherwise I'm somewhat good about updating my website. GemmaHartley.com. Some seasons go better than others with updating that I'm also on Instagram at Gemma Hartley or Gemma L Hartley on Instagram. But yeah, Facebook if you're interested in, you know, my work on an emotional labor and the articles that I write, that's where most of that goes. My instagram can get a little bit jumbled because I'm a yoga teacher and a lot of it just like, here's my yoga schedule for the week.
Laura: Oh cool. I didn't know you did that too. Good for you.
Gemma: Yeah, I've made some big changes during the pandemic. So yeah.
Laura: I hope it's been good for you. Good changes. I do think that there's been parts of the pandemic that have given us permission to let go of things that weren't serving us and embrace things that give us a fuller understanding and fuller expression of ourselves.
Gemma: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, that's what teaching yoga has been for me and my parents are very much like, why have you done this? Why are you teaching yoga and making no money doing that? And I'm like, because it, you know, feeds my soul and that's worth it.
Laura: Yeah, good for you. I love it. Thank you so much Gemma for this conversation. It was really wonderful.
Gemma: Thank you for having me. This was really wonderful.
Laura: Okay, we're back again because we realized that we forgot to include a very important part of our audience, folks who are in gay and lesbian relationships. And so, I wanted to just touch base with you on how this imbalance that we've been talking about plays out in relationships that are nazis and not hetero.
Gemma: Yeah, so this is really interesting because it does still play out to some extent. And I've noticed since my book has come out and I've had a lot of conversations, you know, with same sex couples with couples that are outside of the binary, that there are really differing levels of how they experience this imbalance of emotional labor in their relationships. And I think what I've noticed a lot is that in gay relationships that, you know, you've done a lot of the work to dismantle old roles and ideas that you had about like what a marriage is supposed to look like. And in some ways that makes it a lot easier. That being said, you still grew up with a lot of social conditioning. And so I've noticed a lot of the times in lesbian relationships particularly that there is usually one person who is more inclined to do all of that work and it becomes very, very frustrating.
I am usually talking to one side of the relationship that is like why am I basically an assist pet couple for doing all of the emotional labor, which I thought was really interesting. I have not talked to any gay men in relationships that have that same thing going on for them, that same dynamic and if they do it's very, very like, it's been quick and easy to fix. That being said, like, no, no identity is like a monolith. So I'm sure that there are couples that break the mold out there and have very different experiences with this. But I think that doing so much of the work to dismantle your ideas about how a relationship is supposed to look, gives you a really good foundation to start having these conversations about emotional labor.
Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And I think to the… You know, regardless of the structure of your family, the basic communication skills that you need to have open, honest, vulnerable and compassionate and loving conversations are the same regardless of who you're partnered with, right? You know, they're the, those skills as core skills that most of us did not get growing up, that we have to learn as adults on how to have, you know, conscious couple relationships, those skills that will are the ones that will help you be able to really fully move into a more balanced and equitable relationship. Not, again, not 50 50 necessarily, but a relationship that works for you that feels fulfilling and life giving.
Gemma: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, learning communication skills and having both sides of a partnership, learn those communication skills is, that is the foundation for changing anything in a relationship. Like you have to be able to have that open line of communication that doesn't turn into a cage match.
Laura: Yes, exactly, absolutely. That's why, you know, so I have a course called partners in parenting and we talked very little about actual parenting in it and it's primarily building those foundational skills so that you as a couple can work together to figure these things out. So for listeners, if you know, you and your partner don't have those skills and you need them, there are resources out there available to you and building those communication skills. Well Gemma again, thank you for coming back on, on air with us and wrapping up that conversation. I really appreciate it.
Gemma: Yeah, of course. Thank you.
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All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!